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Do femdoms compete with wildly open minded, kinky vanil... - 12/6/2010 8:53:42 AM

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In the past few years I've met a few older men who found out I was kinky later, and confessed their kinky sides also -- and in talking to them, I found out they had no idea really any "bdsm community" existed, but they dated plenty of wildly kinky women and weren't lonely by any stretch of the imagination.These are men that wouldn't necessarily get involved in any kinky community if they knew of one anyway - nor would they go online to find partners. Just as there are some vanilla people who would never do an online date of any kind - ever. It doesn't occur to them or cross their path.

I've long believed there are plenty of people being kinky without self identifying as lifestylers or putting a label of any kind on themselves, or telling their friends, or being in any public venue or online kinky venue - but they are still wildly kinky in their day to day life. Like a lot of femdoms, I've also met many men who reported that they had pretty good success "converting" women they dated -or, just developed a sense of finding out what women would be open to the idea and the women ended up enjoying it and taking to it naturally. These men have a good radar for it, apparently.

Femdoms, do you consider "vanilla women" as potential competition (not in a bad way, just from a numbers standpoint) if you consider a man to be highly desirable? Have you ever felt you had a submissive man that you were deeply attracted to but that he was also interested potentially in a vanilla woman, or vanilla dating, or that he probably wouldn't been keen on you being "in the lifestyle?"

Have you ever had to "tone down" your involvement in the "bdsm community" because you felt a guy may think it a little weird? How many men do you think are dating mainstream and successfully identifying kinky women or converting kinky women?

Are femdoms not as "rare" as some dominant women would like men to believe?

Akasha

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RE: Do femdoms compete with wildly open minded, kinky v... - 12/6/2010 9:48:48 AM

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I really don't equate my dominance with kink. I will be a femdom forever, and that cn be plenty vanilla!

Bedroom fun is just fun--and I think people are having all kinds of it, no matter what they are calling it. Competition? Think not. I don't think of other women tha way anyhow.

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RE: Do femdoms compete with wildly open minded, kinky v... - 12/6/2010 9:50:39 AM

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I think My experiences in this area are vastly different than yours. If anything, it's been pretty much the opposite. My perspective comes more from speaking with men who are in the kink community because they have had such difficulty finding people in the vanilla world who would be open to trying kink, or had too many situations where they had found someone who was willing to try, but it wasn't for them.

I will agree with you that some people seem to have an excellent radar for spotting people who have a potential for kink. I'm actually more impressed with bottoms who can coax people into topping them than tops finding those willing to bottom. It's easier to find those who are willing to take the passive role rather than the aggressive one. For example, I think it's easier to convince someone to let you tie them up than to hand them a rope and ask to be tied. I also happen to think that's it's easier to coax men into a bit of kink than women. While I don't tend to fish the vanilla waters, I'm basing My thoughts on this in My experiences with getting males to try 'new' kinks that they didn't have experience in before, but how quickly they are willing if given the right circumstances.

Of course, I'm willing to admit that My perceptions on this topic might be flawed due to the fact that, even though I top both genders, there is no sexual component ever when I top women, but sometimes, there is when I top men. (By a sexual component, I'm going on their arousal, rather than My own or whether any physical sex actually occurs during play.) That component is always present in those situations where I have gotten partners to willingly be led into the kinks that I wanted them to participate in with Me.

As to the rest, I really don't consider vanilla women the 'competition'. My plate is pretty full just the way it is without being all that concerned about investing My time in those who might be kinky. The water is just fine in the 'already know they're kinky' pool.

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RE: Do femdoms compete with wildly open minded, kinky v... - 12/6/2010 9:53:05 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: AAkasha
Are femdoms not as "rare" as some dominant women would like men to believe?

Stereotypical femdoms who want to sissify, abuse and humiliate men and who could be classified as actual fetishists are very rare. Healthy adult women with a deep love and appreciation for the male form who are assertive and can very much enjoy being in control without being very interested in any fetishes, cross dressing or humiliation/abuse are quite common.

Stereotypical femdom has almost nothing in it for the female. It's not fun for most of us as it's depicted in the porn movies. About the only thing that could possibly be fun for most women in stereotypical femdom is economic gain, which is a good part of why so many demand tribute or money. There is not much personal satisfaction for most women in catering to male fantasies that involve making the male unattractive and less of a male. A fair number of male "submissives" seem to get off on how much they don't get their partners off, how much they are ugly or worthless or inferior or sexually incapable or otherwise not pleasing to a woman. Uh....explain to me where the fun is for the woman in having an unattractive, un-pleasing partner?

I'm not knocking transfolk of any flavor here. Genderbending can be fucking hot, and the pretty boi/grrl androgynous type definitely has fairly broad appeal. But *bad* genderbending not so much, when it's done not to make the boi pretty and sexy when he rocks that lingerie, but because it's soooo humiliating for a man to be dressed like a lowly woman. Everyone knows that men are dominant and women are submissive, so the only way to make a man submissive is to dress him like a woman. Bzzzt, fail, no thank you, not sexy, highly insulting, the Gorean side is over thataway if you are that deeply convinced that there is no such thing as a dominant woman or a submissive man.

But this is the crap that most people immediately see when they are exposed to "femdom" ideas or imagery. Is it any wonder that most women with healthy sexual appetites who love and appreciate men run for the hills and never come back? It's not that they're not dominant, it's that they're not into catering to this very male-centric subset of humiliation fantasies. Very few people want partners who get off on how much they don't get their partners off. So "femdoms" of this breed are in fact rare, because in order to be the stereotypical femdom, you have to not really like men or sex all that much. That's just not the description of a normal, healthy adult woman.

Reposted below is a bit I wrote on the same subject awhile ago.

What's hot and what's not for a femdom

Mainstream society fills us full of cliches and assumptions about romantic love and sex, some of which are contradictory. The notion that a man having penetrative sex with a woman is automatically being dominant does tend to be the default assumption, especially if he feels strong and intense sexual desire and she enjoys that desire. This is quite a prevalent assumption in our culture - though by no means in all cultures around the world. As a result, the generic femdom stereotype is remarkably sex-negative, and frankly I think that's one of the reasons we don't see nearly enough women flocking to this particular banner who might actually enjoy it if it didn't come off like just another version of "Nice girls don't do that."

Nice girls may not, but fully grown adult women get to, if they know what they want and have the guts to take it. And that, in a nutshell, is what being a dominant woman is. It's not about dressing like a hooker and catering to what men say their fantasies are without taking the time to think about what you actually want, what actually turns you on and makes you wet and gives you great orgasms. And being oriented in such a way that it also turns you on to take control of your partner and make damn sure you get exactly that.

This is the stuff that some male fetishists just don't want to hear, because all they're into is their monomegalithic brand of kink. They aren't actually all that interested in pleasing their partners, unless of course what pleases their partners is exactly what pleases them. A "real domme" is one who only forces them to do the one thing they want to do, and does not demand they provide her with actual female-centric sexual titillation and powerful stud service that will get her hot, wet, and off. Convenient, neh? So no, I'm not playing that game unless I'm being paid for it. Then it's a perfectly fair exchange. Otherwise, "femdom" becomes all about using me to get somebody else's kink on, and being used doesn't turn me on.

I mean, duuuh, I'm a dominant. What did you think a dominant was? Oh yeah. Never mind. sigh And that's why there aren't anywhere near as many femdoms as male submissives active in the scene. Too many of the women who actually are wired this way take one look at the "femdom" shit they are stereotypically supposed to do and think and be, and go "Euwww. That's not me, and that's not hot, and I'm outta here".

Your fault, guys. If you want to change it, try actually focusing on female sexuality and what gets us hot and what makes us happy. Muscular guys in chains who want to hurt and suffer for us and then fuck us silly, hell yes. Pretty bois who can be seriously sexy in a genderbending way, extra points if you make out with other pretty bois, yummy. Men with a sense of style and personal grooming who work on being confident and attractive, great. Be handsome (or pretty) and romantic, offer yourself and the mind and body you have taken time to work on making attractive, and you've got our attention. But if you get off on how much you don't get your partner off, if your idea of fun is to not be attractive to women, don't be real surprised if there aren't many takers. And don't be surprised if women actually run the other way and never come back to the scene if they think this is how it's supposed to be.

If you do not make yourself hot, and focus on what gets us hot, then it is No Fucking Fun for us and we'd probably rather go see a movie with our girlfriends. Or go beat and fuck a hot stud who can take it and then give us all he's got. Cause you ain't got it. So work it till you do, baby, then get back to us.

< Message edited by LadyNTrainer -- 12/6/2010 9:54:19 AM >

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RE: Do femdoms compete with wildly open minded, kinky v... - 12/6/2010 11:47:44 AM

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Well said, LnT!

The only point I'd think I'd argue would be the actual number of "male submissives". In my search for a submissive male who's very much into me and what it is that I do, I've encountered plenty of males who merely have a domination fetish, and assume that because they have this fetish (overwhelming urge or desire, if you will), that it makes them submissive by default. Nothing could be further from the truth. If they really are brave enough to take a good, hard look at themselves, their desires and ability to actually give up any meaningful modicum of control, they really aren't submissive at all. They just want some kinky sex and don't really want to put forth any sort of effort to acheive those means.

To answer the OP's original premise, I generally don't get into the "us vs. them" mentality at all. We're ALL vanilla, at least some of the time. We don't walk around in our kink garb 24/7. Personally, I think if alot of "vanilla" women knew what power they could have and wield under their fingertips, I think they'd probably more readily identify with femdom and not the cardboard cutouts of what submissive guys think other Dominant females SHOULD look like. I'm not the least bit threatened by "kinky girls". If anything, I'm all for inviting them into the fold and educating them on the vast power that we hold under all that is FEMDOM.

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RE: Do femdoms compete with wildly open minded, kinky v... - 12/7/2010 8:01:15 AM

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Just a couple of points:

I was reading a book called "Freakonomics" a while ago, and it had a chapter about prostitution, and how the prevalence of that particular profession (and, in particular, the prevalence of men patronizing that particular profession) has declined over the years. I think one statistic they quoted was that, a hundred years or so ago, like 50% of men had their first sexual experience with a prostitute! Anyway... the reason for this, they said, was that changing social mores were making it more and more acceptable for men and women to have sex outside of wedlock. So whereas, fifty or sixty years ago, a single guy pretty much had to go with a prostitute if he wanted to experience sex w/o having to marry the girl first, nowadays that's no longer the case. And, as they say in the book, who is a prostitute's biggest competition? Any woman who is willing to have sex with a man for free.

My point in bringing this up is that, similarly, I think that those who cater to certain taboo or "forbidden" behaviors (whether in terms of lifestyle, or for financial gain, or what have you) are going to find it more and more difficult to ply their trade over time, because as social mores evolve, fewer and fewer things will be considered taboo!

Secondly... as to what a stereotypical femdom would get out of a humiliation-oriented encounter... undoubtedly a lot of these women are strippers/sex workers/whatever who've simply hit upon an "easier" (or more palatable) way to make money. But could it be that some of them get off on the power involved? The power to manipulate a man into humiliating or emasculating himself? I would imagine there are some guys who, while they may want to be dominated, aren't necessarily into the more extreme sissification-type behaviors. But if a domme is able to "control" them enough to induce them to take part in those activities, that might be something that she would get a charge out of, I would think.

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RE: Do femdoms compete with wildly open minded, kinky v... - 12/7/2010 8:10:59 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Atropos19

Secondly... as to what a stereotypical femdom would get out of a humiliation-oriented encounter... undoubtedly a lot of these women are strippers/sex workers/whatever who've simply hit upon an "easier" (or more palatable) way to make money.

Interesting thought process.

ETA...

quote:

Are femdoms not as "rare" as some dominant women would like men to believe?

I'm not a femdom, but I do think there are many women who enjoy taking a more dominant position within a relationship who don't see it as having anything to do with BDSM or "lifestyle".

At least that's my somewhat "mainstream" view of things.

< Message edited by BonesFromAsh -- 12/7/2010 8:14:58 AM >

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RE: Do femdoms compete with wildly open minded, kinky v... - 12/7/2010 8:34:08 AM

YSG

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I think alot of women, from the boomer generation onward to mine, do have the feeling that they can be the one in charge, both at the workplace and at home. I would point to the feminist/womens lib movement in this country as the cause for this. I do date vanilla quite often, and in fact, the gal I've been going out with for a couple weeks, the same one Im seeing tommorow, has a dominant energy about her (yes, I can feel it). She's a very strong, independent, and educated woman (currently working on her Masters in psychology), and Im starting to get the feeling that if I open up to her, and show her my submissive side, she would be open to taking control of the relationship.

Now, would I say femdoms compete with women like her? No. Competition is a choice.

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RE: Do femdoms compete with wildly open minded, kinky v... - 12/7/2010 8:47:02 AM

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I personally don't feel as if I'm in competition with any other woman, vanilla or not.
I'm just me, and live my life. There's truly enough room for everyone to be who they are in the world.

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RE: Do femdoms compete with wildly open minded, kinky v... - 12/7/2010 12:57:29 PM

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I'd be careful though. I would imagine that, just because a woman knows how to "take care of business" and has a dominant attitude/demeanor in other aspects of her life, doesn't mean she is looking for a submissive guy. She may still be looking for a guy to take the lead in terms of the relationship, OR for an equal who can "keep up with her," so to speak.

It's crappy, but I've personally noticed that some career-focused women (including a close friend of mine) tend to be rather contemptuous of people (male or female) who aren't as motivated/take charge/busy all the time as they are. In particular, my friend used to be an avid reader, and nowadays, when I ask her if she's read a book, I get a condescending answer that none-too-subtly implies that only a layabout with no significant responsibilities or accomplishments in their background could POSSIBLY have the time to sit around doing something so unconstructive as reading a book, LoL.

(In other words, she may be looking for someone who views and experiences life exactly the same way she does, as many people are. Food for thought).

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RE: Do femdoms compete with wildly open minded, kinky v... - 12/7/2010 1:20:03 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyNTrainer

Your fault, guys. If you want to change it, try actually focusing on female sexuality and what gets us hot and what makes us happy. Muscular guys in chains who want to hurt and suffer for us and then fuck us silly, hell yes. Pretty bois who can be seriously sexy in a genderbending way, extra points if you make out with other pretty bois, yummy. Men with a sense of style and personal grooming who work on being confident and attractive, great. Be handsome (or pretty) and romantic, offer yourself and the mind and body you have taken time to work on making attractive, and you've got our attention. But if you get off on how much you don't get your partner off, if your idea of fun is to not be attractive to women, don't be real surprised if there aren't many takers. And don't be surprised if women actually run the other way and never come back to the scene if they think this is how it's supposed to be.

If you do not make yourself hot, and focus on what gets us hot, then it is No Fucking Fun for us and we'd probably rather go see a movie with our girlfriends. Or go beat and fuck a hot stud who can take it and then give us all he's got. Cause you ain't got it. So work it till you do, baby, then get back to us.

Yes, I agree with all of this. But for men who really have their act together, they really understand women at a core level, and they are also very attractive emotionally, mentally and physically - they tend to get involved with women who also bring a lot to the table. A man who is very self aware, has good self esteem, really wildly kinky deep down - when he hooks up with a woman who is very open minded and loves to experiment, she may be trying out strap on play and loving it, trying out using a flogger on his ass and loving it, and even engaging in some humiliating games. They might not be lifestylers, they might not be online on kinky communities, and she might have never known anything about S&M until he told her he was "a little on the kinky side."

I guess my point is that mature, emotionally and mentally open minded people who are very pro-sex and adventurous may get pulled into BDSM by a partner on a fairly regular basis and realize they think it's great fun, and then live happily ever after. But the man in this make believe equation isn't a self loathing, under-socialized type who never dates and doesn't really know how to talk to women or relate to women - he's a great lover, a great communicator, loves to please a woman in bed, and knows how to present BDSM in a way that's exciting and an adventure. And the woman in the equation is very sex-positive and open minded and think it's wild and fun that her boyfriend/lover is a little freak in bed and she is game to try it. The key here is that both people are open minded, into sexuality and sensuality in all its flavors, and want to make it work.

The difference between this woman and a 'born, organic femdom' is that she doesn't wake up and have the ache to do it - the desire, the lust, the need, the hunger. But she's generally ALWAYS game, just as she's always game for anything that blows his mind in bed or out of bed - because she think it's fun living life that way.

Not sure if that makes sense. I just have heard some stories about women who weren't "femdom" but sure had fun pretending to be one.

Akasha

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RE: Do femdoms compete with wildly open minded, kinky v... - 12/7/2010 2:52:40 PM

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Using fast reply...

Based upon what I've seen, I almost feel like there are three different dynamics at play here. The woman that is dominant and prefers to be in a female lead relationship. A woman that likes wild kinky fun. Then the women that fall somewhere in the middle of a combination of those.

The problem as I see it.... Is that a large number of the men want more of the wild kinky fun and less of the real live dominant female lead relationship. Their focus is primarily on getting their kink fed and less on being led and pleasing the one leading them.

I don't think a dominant woman can be in any real competition with a woman that is primarily interested in some wild kinky fun and less interested in actually being the leader of the relationship, and all that entails.

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RE: Do femdoms compete with wildly open minded, kinky v... - 12/7/2010 3:26:55 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: AAkasha

In the past few years I've met a few older men who found out I was kinky later, and confessed their kinky sides also -- and in talking to them, I found out they had no idea really any "bdsm community" existed, but they dated plenty of wildly kinky women and weren't lonely by any stretch of the imagination.These are men that wouldn't necessarily get involved in any kinky community if they knew of one anyway - nor would they go online to find partners. Just as there are some vanilla people who would never do an online date of any kind - ever. It doesn't occur to them or cross their path.

I've long believed there are plenty of people being kinky without self identifying as lifestylers or putting a label of any kind on themselves, or telling their friends, or being in any public venue or online kinky venue - but they are still wildly kinky in their day to day life. Like a lot of femdoms, I've also met many men who reported that they had pretty good success "converting" women they dated -or, just developed a sense of finding out what women would be open to the idea and the women ended up enjoying it and taking to it naturally. These men have a good radar for it, apparently.

Femdoms, do you consider "vanilla women" as potential competition (not in a bad way, just from a numbers standpoint) if you consider a man to be highly desirable? Have you ever felt you had a submissive man that you were deeply attracted to but that he was also interested potentially in a vanilla woman, or vanilla dating, or that he probably wouldn't been keen on you being "in the lifestyle?"

Have you ever had to "tone down" your involvement in the "bdsm community" because you felt a guy may think it a little weird? How many men do you think are dating mainstream and successfully identifying kinky women or converting kinky women?

Are femdoms not as "rare" as some dominant women would like men to believe?

Akasha

I'm sure it's a popular male fantasy, but truly dominant women secure in their own skin don't compete for male attention because they get enough, I'm sure Elise Sutton would possibly disagree, but I have yet to meet anybody who can verify ES is truly a female, however a few people here have spoken to me and met me, whoever thinks I am a guy, I'm open to a casual cup of coffee or a call. During my time as a pro domme, I met quite a lot of guys who would gladly verify I am female... Some females might consider other females as competition, but anybody serious about BDSM will be more open welcoming people interested in the life-style, especially females as there is unfortunately a shortage of them and I think if more women would be open to it, a lot less drama would occur.

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RE: Do femdoms compete with wildly open minded, kinky v... - 12/9/2010 5:32:23 AM

YSG

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ok, so, I figured this was newsworthy, and would fit in with this thread.

I went out on another date with this vanilla girl last night. Ill spare you the boring details, like where we went to eat, etc. I take her home, and we're sitting in my car talking for a few minutes. Anyway, she reaches over, kisses me, and tells me, "you make me very happy". I dont know if she somehow sensed my heart leaping, or the big goofy grin on my face after she said that, but a moment later she reached over and pulled my hair (instant melting point for me). The next words out of her mouth were "I KNEW it! You're submissive!". Long story short, she says she's always had this fantasy about having a submissive boyfriend/husband, wanting to be in control of the relationship, etc. So, it looks like a pretty interesting time ahead for me

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RE: Do femdoms compete with wildly open minded, kinky v... - 12/9/2010 6:52:34 AM

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quote:

Femdoms, do you consider "vanilla women" as potential competition

ORIGINAL: AAkasha Absolutely not. What self respecting fem dom is so insecure, and anti women, that she would see other women's presence, and open mindedness as problematic, or undercutting her own position among the masses?

To myself, you are a relatively secure lady, in search of your own particular path to fullfilment, which in no way, undercuts another human being (without his explicit consent), or you are not.
Granting, I'm hardly perfect; the fact of the matter is, I don't consider a terribly insecure lady, fighting against other ladies, to be particularly dominants.... Having said that, I am hardly a submissive, so in no position to really say. M

< Message edited by SexyBossyBBW -- 12/9/2010 6:53:18 AM >

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RE: Do femdoms compete with wildly open minded, kinky v... - 12/9/2010 9:19:00 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: YSG

ok, so, I figured this was newsworthy, and would fit in with this thread.

I went out on another date with this vanilla girl last night. Ill spare you the boring details, like where we went to eat, etc. I take her home, and we're sitting in my car talking for a few minutes. Anyway, she reaches over, kisses me, and tells me, "you make me very happy". I dont know if she somehow sensed my heart leaping, or the big goofy grin on my face after she said that, but a moment later she reached over and pulled my hair (instant melting point for me). The next words out of her mouth were "I KNEW it! You're submissive!". Long story short, she says she's always had this fantasy about having a submissive boyfriend/husband, wanting to be in control of the relationship, etc. So, it looks like a pretty interesting time ahead for me

Yay!!!!!

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RE: Do femdoms compete with wildly open minded, kinky v... - 12/9/2010 9:50:40 AM

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quick answer? not in the least........... I don't compete with anyone, I am a unique person........... others must compete against me :)

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RE: Do femdoms compete with wildly open minded, kinky v... - 12/10/2010 12:39:05 PM

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In reading the responses, I think the word "compete" is misleading. I'll rephrase it.

Do you think most submissive men are able to - if they were to desire it - find an open minded, kink-friendly "vanilla" woman who was not a member of the bdsm community? If not, why?

Akasha

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RE: Do femdoms compete with wildly open minded, kinky v... - 12/10/2010 12:53:25 PM

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Sexual and romantic attractions are ultimately inexplicable. Everyone competes with everyone. Just about everyone has had the experience of being strongly attracted to someone who isn't at all what we consider "our type." We don't get to order a partner, spouse, or dominant to specifications, and that's probably for the best. Perhaps there are some persons for whom submission (or dominance) is so fundamental, they can't contemplate any relationship that doesn't include it. For most of us, it's one desirable trait among many. Whether d/s, bdsm, or "vanilla", no couple gets to spend their whole time in amorous play. (Sounds like it would be great, but it would probably get tiresome if we did, so that's probably just as well, too.) I confess, I have my own mental "shopping list" of kinks and turn-ons, but I'm not even going to think about those until I'm already sure I want to spend time with a woman for other reasons and that we enjoy lots of other sorts of things together.

(in reply to AAkasha)

RE: Do femdoms compete with wildly open minded, kinky v... - 12/10/2010 3:30:12 PM

Posts: 201
Joined: 6/29/2004
Status: offline

All depends on what you call Femdom. In our life it means my wish and will is the law 24/7. My husband/slavejust loves me to wear the pants and knows I will order him to do a lot of -mainly vanilla- things. At our home, it's just more obvious. But it started by me ordering my boyfriend to do the dishes. He made me discover my Femdom side in this way, and I feel pretty good in it.

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(in reply to CelticSubM)

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