RapierFugue
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Joined: 3/16/2006
From: London, England
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Aneirin
Again I come on here and find out what is happening in my own country, but the student protests again, so what, they are not going to change anything for the better, when governments decide, that's it stuff you people.
Anyway the way I understand the student fees thing, is the current system, the money is paid back inline with inflation, but this new system will not, it will be tied to other rates, of which I am not quite sure what they are, but some info I have heard is that what has to be paid back will be far more than is taken out due to these rates. Also I am hearing there is something also about the new system is going to discourage those who for want of a better word, 'hide' in education, it will be a case of hide and say hidden, or don't seek higher qualifications as soon as one gets out, you will be crushed by the repayments.
But as the students are protesting now, and granted many do not know the truth of it, but those with children whom they would have liked to go onto higher education are part of this too, for it will hit the upcoming children too ad that perhaps more so than the current lot.
But as to police using horses against people, well, the authorities have a dark history of that, what happened in Peterloo in 1819, similar in ways to what is happening these days. Not that the authorities would go that far again, but using horses against people, not long before people will see the danger of horses and what can be done about them.
But united we stand, divided we fall, it is us against them and the police are in the middle.
In this day and age it's ludicrously easy to remain informed; there’s news on TV, there’s RSS feeds (the BBC’s is very close to being real-time) and there are many online news sites too. You can even watch streaming online versions of the news channels, like BBC News 24 and Sky News, as I did while this all unfolded yesterday.
The numbers distortion going on over this issue is amazing; the “£9,000” top rate will apply to only a few courses at a very small number of universities. For most folk, it’ll mean a rise from £3,000 to £6,000. The threshold for repayment (i.e. the point at which you have to start paying back) rises to salaries of £21,000 and higher, and that figure will be linked to the same index of repayment as that used to calculate the repayment interest, i.e. it’ll be fully index-linked.
Many of the brightest, less well-off students already attend top level universities via scholarships anyway, and students traditionally have acres of free time in which to secure a part-time job, therefore the practical effects of the changes are likely to be small, at best. The UK simply cannot continue to subsidise universities at the traditional rate, and when I look at the cutbacks in other areas, which hit a greater number of people much harder, my sympathy for “the cause” is highly limited. Added to that is the fact that, if investment is needed anywhere within the UK educational system then it’s needed in primary and secondary schools, where investment in buildings and infrastructure has been abysmally low. Unfortunately, thus far, universities have creamed off the best of the funding for themselves.
From a ethical standpoint I don't see university education as a right; it falls under “privilege” to me; something that should be worked hard for and, under the new system, if someone is bright, and works hard, then the likelihood is they will secure a scholarship. The problem seems to me (as someone mentioned earlier in the thread) to be one of people assuming they have “rights” to this and that, when in fact they do not. Successive governments, from Thatcher onwards (but, lest I be accused of left-wing bias, continued under Labour) have used higher education as a form of tertiary childcare, to keep large numbers off the dole queues, and out of the unemployment figures. That’s fine as far as it goes, but if you talk to people in industry you’ll find that many universities are turning out graduates who, in many cases, aren’t really any more fit for employment than they would have been if they’d left at 16 or 18.
What the changes will do is hit mature students (like yourself, if memory serves?) slightly harder, but then again that's also a personal choice; to go back to uni or not, as it were.
What will be interesting is to see what the universities (who demanded increases in funding in the first place) do with the revenue; some will undoubtedly invest wisely in developing their institutions, but I can’t help thinking that some will squander the money, and the current 2-tier system (with poorer universities tending to remain so through incompetent management) may very well not be as “fixed” by these proposals as many think.
As to police actions yesterday, the “horse charging” was limited to two small pushes (I counted less than a dozen horses, none at anything like “charge” speeds), when the thugs attempted to gain access to the HoC, at one corner of parliament square, and where the police sustained injuries from missile-throwing idiots before said “charges”. As soon as it was realised that there really wasn’t enough room to operate the horses without risk to either their riders or the large numbers of peaceful demonstrators within the confines of Parliament Square (which, let’s face it, isn't a large open area anyway) the Met withdrew their use and maintained a line using pedestrian police. To compare that to the “Peterloo” charges is both inaccurate and hysterical, although I note you aren't making a direct comparison.
I’ve long been (and continue to be) a critic of the Met; they're institutionally racist, incompetent, heavy-handed, poorly run and managed, and offer Londoners very poor VFM. However I have to say I was hugely impressed by their patience and tolerance yesterday, when under sustained, violent attack. I would have had no issue whatsoever with them baton charging the front lines of masked thugs who were determined to cause as much damage as possible to people (i.e. the police) and property as possible. One could I think reasonably criticise the Met’s tactics on the ground, in that they were slow to respond to what was clearly a much larger force of “race war” type idiots than maybe they expected, and also, given that there was a designated “vigil area” and route on the South Bank (which had been agreed with the demo’s organisers), one could also say that they erred in allowing anyone to form up in numbers in Parliament Square at all, as it was clear from very early on that, if people aren’t prepared to stick to agreed and organised routes (for their own safety as much as for the convenience of others) then they were almost certainly going to kick-off at some point.
But, in the cold light of a new day, what’s the damage? A few windows, a slightly foxed royal Rolls, and some rubbish to be cleared. Hardly the shit-storm some were promising yesterday. As usual, many of the more dense members of society want to turn the whole thing into a “class war” event, which only trivialises the underlying issues, as well as obfuscating the facts of educational funding in the UK.
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RE: London Protests Turn Violent With Parliament Under ... - 
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How on earth does that make any sense? 
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