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Alternatives to antidepressants - 12/18/2010 11:54:28 AM   
samboct


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Status: offline 		A recent thread on generic antidepressants showed a lot of people on this board have concerns about depression. For some folks, antidepressants work like a charm. For others, the effect of an antidepressant is short lived, thus necessitating a never ending search for replacements. While talk therapy can work for some individuals, other people show little benefit, even when treated by a skilled practitioner.

Clearly, depression has a number of causes, and the disease is not homogeneous. Thus, there will be no one size fits all treatment.

Although ECT (electro convulsive therapy aka electro shock therapy) has received some very bad press due to movies like "One Flew over the Cuckoo's Nest", in some cases, it provides the only relief for some severe depression. When done carefully, the side effects of memory loss can be minimized, but nevertheless, most of us find the technique either scary or abhorrent. Unfortunately, the research as to how this ECT works is limited, but it does seem to be effective.

There is now a much more sophisticated treatment based on magnetic fields rather than electric fields that has also shown to be efficacious in the treatment of depression. The technique is experimental in the US, but has been approved in Canada. One of the major advantages over ECT is the reduced side effects- headache primarily, but memory loss does not seem to occur. Again, theoretical understanding of the technique is lacking, but given the relatively low energy of the fields involved, it is probable that long term deleterious effects will be minimal.

For folks suffering from depression who have been unhappy with meds, or talk therapy, may want to investigate this option.

Here's a link: http://www.healthyplace.com/depression/tms/transcranial-magnetic-stimulation-tms-for-treatment-of-depression/menu-id-68/


Sam
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RE: Alternatives to antidepressants - 12/18/2010 12:17:24 PM   
LadyConstanze


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Status: offline 		I'm actually a huge fan of magnetic theory especially when it comes to diagnosing...

At the end of the day depression is such a complicated field, we don't really know how our mind or brain works, what might work for one person might not work for the next person. In a lot of cases changing your life-style works wonders, you know removing certain foods and releasing endorphins through workouts, but in some cases there unfortunately is an inability of the body to produce the right amount of endorphins, in those cases they have to be given artificially, like insulin to a diabetic.



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RE: Alternatives to antidepressants - 12/18/2010 12:21:11 PM   
Hillwilliam


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RE: Alternatives to antidepressants - 12/18/2010 12:25:00 PM   
LadyConstanze


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam

Just look at Me naked. I guarantee you'll be laffin for days.


I request a picture if I encounter depression ;)

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RE: Alternatives to antidepressants - 12/18/2010 12:28:52 PM   
Hillwilliam


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyConstanze


quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam

Just look at Me naked. I guarantee you'll be laffin for days.


I request a picture if I encounter depression ;)

I have a feeling that with that threat hanging over your head (a naked Hillbean) you will be happy and well adjusted to the end of your days.

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RE: Alternatives to antidepressants - 12/18/2010 12:32:57 PM   
CynthiaWVirginia


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Status: offline 		I was curious about that link, but my computer wouldn't let me go there.  My screen actually used the word aborted, never saw that happen before.  This might just be my old WindowsME...does anyone else have problems going to that link?

When I get depressed in winter, often it's because my Vitamin D level is way too low. 

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RE: Alternatives to antidepressants - 12/18/2010 12:38:07 PM   
Hillwilliam


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Status: offline 		It worked for Me, cynthia but I'm running Win7

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RE: Alternatives to antidepressants - 12/18/2010 12:47:12 PM   
kalikshama


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Status: offline 		According to Dr. Weil,

Electroconvulsive therapy (ECT), popularly known as shock treatment, is absolutely not indicated for mild depression. It is a drastic treatment with significant side effects that should be reserved for a subset of people with severe depression. If severe depression doesn't respond to antidepressant medications or psychotherapy and is characterized by suicidal or homicidal thoughts, intractable insomnia, or significant loss of weight, ECT may be indicated. It can also be used for severe mania that doesn't respond to medication. Common side-effects of ECT include temporary short-term memory loss, nausea, muscle aches and headaches. Some people develop longer-lasting memory problems. The seizures that ECT triggers are believed to help the severely depressed by releasing neurotransmitters that improve the function of brain cells and, in turn, enhance mood.

I recommend the following treatments for the symptoms of mild to moderate depression:
Exercise. Aerobic exercise is the most effective treatment I know for mild to moderate depression.
Relaxation techniques. Breathing exercises, meditation and yoga can help relieve depression.
Dietary changes. Increasing your intake of foods that provide omega-3 fatty acids (fish such as salmon and sardines, as well as walnuts and freshly ground flaxseeds) can help, perhaps by correcting overactive cell signaling in the brain, which appears to be linked to depression. You may also want to consider taking an omega-3 fatty acid supplement with more DHA than EPA. I also recommend avoiding caffeine and alcohol.
St. John's wort. This herb appears to work as well as antidepressants for mild to moderate depression. The recommended dosage is 300 mg of an extract, standardized to 0.3% hypericin and 5% hyperforin, taken three times a day with food.
SAM-e. This supplement, S-adenosyl-methionine (often called "Sammy"), seems to work faster than St. John's wort but is much more expensive ($75 or more per month). Look for enteric-coated tablets providing the butanedisulfonate form.
5-HTP (5-hydroxy-L-tryptophan). A derivative of the amino acid tryptophan, 5-HTP is converted into neurotransmitter serotonin in the brain. Serotinin helps regulate mood, sleep and appetite. Reduced serotonin levels are associated with depression and 5-HTP may help increase them. However, I would try exercise, St. John's wort and SAM-e first.

In addition, experiment with acupuncture. The World Health Organization recognizes it as effective for treating mild to moderate depression.

Andrew Weil, M.D.

< Message edited by kalikshama -- 12/18/2010 1:00:53 PM >

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RE: Alternatives to antidepressants - 12/18/2010 12:47:19 PM   
LadyConstanze


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam


quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyConstanze


quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam

Just look at Me naked. I guarantee you'll be laffin for days.


I request a picture if I encounter depression ;)

I have a feeling that with that threat hanging over your head (a naked Hillbean) you will be happy and well adjusted to the end of your days.


Not sure, going to do the tax thing in spring (well the accountant does) but I guess I will need a laugh then ;)

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RE: Alternatives to antidepressants - 12/18/2010 12:49:34 PM   
RedBottomGirl26


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Status: offline 		samboct, thank you for some additional information on the topic of depression, esp. since it's probably the most common mental illness among a good majority of people.

Though, I can't see myself signing up for electro shock any time soon, my memory is bad enough as it is, that I'd really like to keep what little I have left, that I'm able to retain. I do think the magnetic field you speak of sounds plausible to me, and less invasive, yet... you know what they say about the way to hell being paved with good intentions, sometimes even the most benign treatments could have more long-term affects that just don't show up on an initial follow-up.

I think you are totally right that not all treatments (talk/pills can treat everyone effectively). I somehow really envy the people it does work for, because at least they get some relief.

And what Lady said how even exercise, might not be enough to release enough of the right chemicals to help. I don't get the runner's high people keep talking about. I do notice a slight mood boost with exercise, but it's not as long-lasting as I wish it were, or really need it to be. It's strange the lengths people will go just to improve a mood boost sometimes.

Anyway, I'm always on the look-out for new information regarding these topics, so it is very important to me, just as I suspect, it would be to other people as well.

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RE: Alternatives to antidepressants - 12/18/2010 12:54:12 PM   
CynthiaWVirginia


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam

It worked for Me, cynthia but I'm running Win7


Hillwilliam, then it is just my sweet lil computer throwing fits again.  Thank you for letting me know that your own computer had no problems with it.

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RE: Alternatives to antidepressants - 12/18/2010 12:57:30 PM   
RedBottomGirl26


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Status: offline 		kalikshama--my thoughts exactly on the electro shock, and thanks for posting some info on herbs or other alternative therapies, I'll keep those in mind, but I really don't have $75 dollars to pop on some expensive herb or vitamin, wow, I never knew some of them were just that expensive, it is true, phameceuticals do get very rich off of people being in some way ill (either physical or mental)...kind of makes me sad when I think, that instead of people wanting to allievate these things, that some seem to want a progression.

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RE: Alternatives to antidepressants - 12/18/2010 1:09:12 PM   
kalikshama


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Status: offline 		He did say Sam-e was more expensive than St John's Wort, and voila, Amazon shows it to be so. All were much less than $75, however.
http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=st+johns+wort&x=0&y=0
http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=sam-e&x=0&y=0

Exercise, however, is free. Although I'd rather burrow under the covers when I'm depressed, I know a brisk walk around the block will improve my mood considerably.

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RE: Alternatives to antidepressants - 12/18/2010 1:11:07 PM   
MaxsGirl


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Status: offline 		Vitamin D3 intake is key, especially at this time of year.  Most grocery store vitamins don't offer nearly enough D3, or they contain D1 instead.  Try this D3 serum.  It's a tiny bottle, but at two drops a day to get your full dose of D3, it'll last you a very long time.

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RE: Alternatives to antidepressants - 12/18/2010 1:58:54 PM   
angelikaJ


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Status: offline 		samboct,

You may find this link interesting.

http://www.mcmanweb.com/vns.html

It lists other options to ECT.

There are states in which the use of ECT has specific guidelines.

edit: clarity; better research made things clearer for me.

< Message edited by angelikaJ -- 12/18/2010 2:48:32 PM >

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RE: Alternatives to antidepressants - 12/18/2010 2:42:19 PM   
samboct


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Status: offline 		In terms of Dr. Weil's recommendations-

I don't think his comments would past muster in the larger scientific/medical community. The traditional problem with herbal remedies is that you simply don't know what you're getting. There's no consistency- a St. John's Wort preparation from one company doesn't have any of the same compounds as a different companies preparation and often batch to batch from the same manufacturer is wildly different. This is why scientists get really aggravated when large sums of money were spent (I think Jane Fonda had something to do with it) to explore alternatives to Western Medicine. Also bear in mind that pharmaceutical products are generally just highly purified and consistent preparations of various compounds found in plants. "Natural" is a marketing term with little meaning.

I had an interesting conversation with a lovely researcher in Boston MA not long ago. (Would you believe we were just standing on a subway platform and she commented- look at the mouse on the subway tracks.) She was working on sleep research involving melatonin. We began discussing sleep cycles and she ties them to melatonin levels. (Turns out astronauts have a lot of trouble sleeping.) Her comment was that additional melatonin as a sleep aid didn't work- there wasn't enough of the compound absorbed from the gut to the bloodstream to do any good. I suspect that any of these simple preparations of an amino acid are going to have the same problem- if given in large enough doses, they're toxic, and in small doses, not enough is going to get to the brain to do any good.

In terms of Vitamin D- your body does a very good job of making vitamin D if you get it some sunshine. For those who suffer from seasonal depression, often the best remedy is simply to get outside- even if its bloody cold and get some sunlight during a brisk walk.

Sam


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RE: Alternatives to antidepressants - 12/18/2010 10:10:50 PM   
hausboy


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Status: offline 		Thanks Sam.  I'm not a "western-medicine-is-the-only-medicine" type--but as one who spends most of my waking hours within the healthcare community, I should mention (for those in the States) that the treatment methods described are not approved by the U.S. Food & Drug Administration. (FDA)   That doesn't mean they aren't effective....it just means that they haven't been researched and approved for efficacy and safety...so buyer/user beware.  Holistic treatments can cause harm to some individuals, so know that you do so at your own risk.

FYI--for you S.A.D. sufferers--those seasonal affective disorder lamps work great!

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RE: Alternatives to antidepressants - 12/19/2010 8:53:47 AM   
samboct


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Status: offline 		Hi Angelika

Thanks for the link. I do think that "when there's smoke, there's fire." The brain is NOT akin to a silicon chip computer. Silicon chip computers only use electrons to connect various circuits, while the human brain uses both electrical signals and chemical signals. From my perspective, like a lot of diseases, diagnostics in depression is still more art than science since we don't have a good handle on either the electrical signals or the chemical signals indicative of depression.

Pharma companies have traditionally not wanted to develop diagnostics tools unless they also sell treatments, and from what I've seen, diagnostics which potentially limit sales aren't real high on their list of priorities.

While its clear that some drugs have been effective treating depression, it's also clear that direct physical methods such as applying electrical or magnetic fields have not been well studied. There is increasing anecdotal evidence that some patients benefit apparently long term from these magnetic field treatments which the link noted, can be far more selectively focused than electric fields. I think it's a very promising area of research.

RBG26- I can fully understand the reluctance to try an experimental treatment- especially one where the long term effects are not known. From a chemists standpoint, tickling something with a magnetic field is a pretty gentle perturbation compared to flooding the entire brain with a variety of compounds or whacking it with a big jolt of electricity a la ECT, but hey, it's not my brain that I'm planning on doing this to.

Sam

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RE: Alternatives to antidepressants - 12/19/2010 9:50:55 AM   
angelikaJ


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Status: offline 		There are other things (and I know this thread is about moving away from medications) but r-EEG may help determine which medications will actually work in an individual person.

http://www.cnsresponse.com/aboutreeg.php

Also some people have a genetic abnormality that prevents their bodies from converting folate (folic acid) to l-methylfolate which is the form able to cross the blood brain barrier. L-methyfolate is used to synthesize serotonin, norepinephrine and dopamine...the same neurotransmitters that are out of whack among people with mental illnesses.


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RE: Alternatives to antidepressants - 12/19/2010 10:39:50 AM   
DesFIP


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Status: offline 		Actually the op wasn't about alternatives to medication but options for those for whom the medications are ineffective.

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