RE: Why Subs Top from the Bottom

RE: Why Subs Top from the Bottom (Full Version)

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AquaticSub -> RE: Why Subs Top from the Bottom (1/9/2011 12:41:18 AM)
What she said. :D

NihilusZero -> RE: Why Subs Top from the Bottom (1/9/2011 2:19:37 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: AquaticSub What she said. :D [:)] Ditto.

LadyConstanze -> RE: Why Subs Top from the Bottom (1/9/2011 2:00:18 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: NihilusZero Despite the haywire detours this thread seems to have taken (to be fair, likely started in the OP itself), the question itself is an interesting one. The short, short answer is that there are enough D-types who enjoy/permit/encourage the varying permutations of this phenomenon (or at least the way they manifest) that the process catches on, popularly speaking. That, of course, is disregarding those who cannot dissociate their intellectual competence and human individuality from a brash, aggressive demeanor (but there are D-types who like that as well). I think there is no golden rule what makes it a relationship work, there has to be chemistry and there has to be mutual ground, apart from that it takes all parties involved to make it work, on the other side of the coin, it takes only one person to fuck it up. The whole "Oh you are the dominant, if it doesn't work it's your fault" thinking just doesn't work for me, if somebody is dishonest from the start, there is no chance of making it work. In that respect a BDSM relationship is not different from a vanilla relationship, pretending that your needs are different than they are doesn't make them different, it only leads to frustration. It's like saying you are fine with an open relationship when in reality you are jealous as hell and want a monogamous partner, it doesn't make one a bad person to want what one wants and being honest can get in the way of instant fantasy fulfillment, but if you're starting out with a lie, I think a relationship has little chance.

NihilusZero -> RE: Why Subs Top from the Bottom (1/9/2011 5:18:38 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LadyConstanze The whole "Oh you are the dominant, if it doesn't work it's your fault" thinking just doesn't work for me, if somebody is dishonest from the start, there is no chance of making it work. Well, the dishonesty part definitely rings true. As far as the responsibility of the dominant is concerned, though, I do think there is a greater weight on the dominant. To the degree that I want a slave rendering her life decisions to me, I am responsible for making the decisions wrought from being in that authority dynamic...even if the best decision for all is a parting of ways. This also includes my being able to realize if I'm letting something (naivete, hopefulness, lust-drunkenness) affect my objective ability to determine if we are continuing to be compatible. The responsibilities are different, however, depending on what stage of the relationship the partners are in since, prior to surrendering, the s-type is obviously responsible for ascertaining the likelihood of the compatibility as well. quote: ORIGINAL: LadyConstanze In that respect a BDSM relationship is not different from a vanilla relationship, pretending that your needs are different than they are doesn't make them different, it only leads to frustration. It's like saying you are fine with an open relationship when in reality you are jealous as hell and want a monogamous partner, it doesn't make one a bad person to want what one wants and being honest can get in the way of instant fantasy fulfillment, but if you're starting out with a lie, I think a relationship has little chance. Which is why I have a certain apprehension with people who still seem either in the 'test-drive' phase or the 'acting' phase of their submission and/or submissiveness, but that's also because (going back to compatibility), the way my dominance manifests in relationships is not a result of me forcing a persona onto myself or trying out a certain relationship role.

LadyConstanze -> RE: Why Subs Top from the Bottom (1/10/2011 7:08:49 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: NihilusZero Which is why I have a certain apprehension with people who still seem either in the 'test-drive' phase or the 'acting' phase of their submission and/or submissiveness, but that's also because (going back to compatibility), the way my dominance manifests in relationships is not a result of me forcing a persona onto myself or trying out a certain relationship role. I think every relationship has a "test drive" phase, you talk about what both parties expect, in case it sounds like it is compatible, you try it carefully to get a feel (what's extreme for one person might be mild for another), that's what I consider the test drive phase, after all the talks when it comes down to it but the relationship hasn't yet moved to the phase where you know each other pretty well... As for safety, yes the dominant has a higher responsibility when it comes to play, simply because it's the dominant who's wielding the tools, however if the submissive was not honest in what they want and tries to manipulate, I seriously don't see the dominant part as responsible to make the relationship work, if somebody lies to me I'm out, I won't trust somebody who lied about what they were looking for, because I would always wonder what else they lied or will lie to me about. Let me clarify the test drive phase, as you seem to be quite eager to misunderstand... New submissive tells me he's very service orientated, for the first few times he will only be doing service oriented tasks, now if I notice that he's deliberately breaking things to get "punished" - that's the end of the test drive. In case he'd have told me "I'm service orientated and a masochist, I like being punished" - it would have been not an issue, he would have gotten his reward, as a sadist I have no trouble giving pain, but somebody who lies to me because he thinks he might have a better chance by claiming he is service orientated, that one won't get over the "test drive" phase. I don't need to test drive myself, I know myself pretty well, but a new relationship I will test drive, especially since I made it clear from the start that I'm not looking for a life partner, got one of those...

Prinsexx -> RE: Why Subs Top from the Bottom (1/10/2011 9:22:52 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: NihilusZero As far as the responsibility of the dominant is concerned, though, I do think there is a greater weight on the dominant. I agree wholeheartedly with this as deferring responsibility is part of the authority transfer. I said deferring by which I mean to postpone responsibility until play is over, or the scene is over, or until the Dominant releases the sub or until the sub frees themself. Deferring responsibilty...'ketting go'.... can be a difficult process and ofren has to be learned and therefore I feel that some (myself included) have often been seen to be topping from the boottom, without consent, where it has been an expression of a struggle with deference.

CerVeza -> RE: Why Subs Top from the Bottom (1/10/2011 9:24:32 AM)
Topping from the bottom is always so saddening to me. It would make Me cross, I know.

Prinsexx -> RE: Why Subs Top from the Bottom (1/10/2011 9:27:51 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: CerVeza Topping from the bottom is always so saddening to me. It would make Me cross, I know. Are you saying feeling sad makes you cross? Then I would not feel safe around that. Why be sad if someone in a submissive position is struggling and then why get angry?

Prinsexx -> RE: Why Subs Top from the Bottom (1/10/2011 9:33:19 AM)
One responsible solution to topping from the bottom is surely to take responsinility for it and co-opt ir by which I mean instruct that it happens. Create a space for it and bring it into play. A submissive will often feel that the grass is greener but then it also needs mowing. By which I mean that freedom which is longed for is often not freedom at all. It's the longing for it which has to be bealt with.

LaTigresse -> RE: Why Subs Top from the Bottom (1/10/2011 11:46:29 AM)
Every time I see this thread pop up I want to say......... "Because they can!" It's rather like someone upsetting us. They do it because we allow it. How can someone top a person that will not bottom?

mummyman321 -> RE: Why Subs Top from the Bottom (1/10/2011 12:16:40 PM)
Lat, You beat me to it. Its like a big red button that says "DO NOT PUSH". You know someone just cannot resist and will push it!

LaTigresse -> RE: Why Subs Top from the Bottom (1/10/2011 12:18:40 PM)
And yanno, they can be jumping up and down on that button. It is how I acknowledge or deal with their jumping that defines the outcome.......not necessarily the jumper.

Prinsexx -> RE: Why Subs Top from the Bottom (1/10/2011 12:45:11 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LaTigresse And yanno, they can be jumping up and down on that button. It is how I acknowledge or deal with their jumping that defines the outcome.......not necessarily the jumper. And I also agree with this. How one deals with any unwanted begaviour is to make a distinction between the person and their behaviour. If only my intention and my behavious had always been congruent I would never had had any problems in my life regarding anything not least of all BDSM dynamics. Topping from the bottom as a behaviour can be acting out of almost anything: insecurity, testing, fear, attention seeking, and of course it can simply be acting out another form of submission. It can represent love, jealousy and also respect. It's like ok so look here, I'm gonna top you, just cos i can and cos I think you can handle it. And now here's another topic altogether: what does topping from the bottom actually mean? Or again: how would you deal with topping from the bottom?

LaTigresse -> RE: Why Subs Top from the Bottom (1/10/2011 1:00:47 PM)
To me, and in this context I can only give how I interpret it........as an attempt to wrest control from or have control over the dominant party/ies. I am quite confident that my definition varies from others.

mummyman321 -> RE: Why Subs Top from the Bottom (1/10/2011 1:24:33 PM)
I think if you ask 10 different people you will get 10 different definitions of exactly what "topping from the bottom" is. While some Dominants are highly intolerant of "topping from the bottom," many define it as honest communication and negotiations, to find what works for both parties. I am in this group of people. I want to be able to communicate and suggest actions/ideas to my Domme. It is her choice whether to act on those suggestions. I've always said communication is the key. This type of communication allows the Domme to better understand my wants/likes/desires. Saying stuff in the heat of the moment are things you might not think of telling your Domme once play is over.

LaTigresse -> RE: Why Subs Top from the Bottom (1/10/2011 1:28:22 PM)
I agree completely with that and have never considered honest communication as an attempt to control me. Let's face it, to have ANY sort of successful relationship you've got to have clear communication.

Prinsexx -> RE: Why Subs Top from the Bottom (1/10/2011 2:34:00 PM)
I've topped from the bottom because I have been told to. But I suppose that's been covered. But could I also chip in here and say that topping from the bottom can be and often is interpreted quite differently if you are a switch. It depends if it is inter switching or intra switching. What I mean by intra switching is with the same partner and often within the same session or scene. THEN topping from the bottom is often a very welcomed sign that the dynamics of energy control are about to switch. It takes knowing the other person as a switch quite well or to make sure as a switch that one is known quite well for these signs to be read correctly. More often than not switching is behavioural but not at first overtly so. It can be a slowing down, a certain look, a very subtle body language. Often it is the body language of non compliance leading to a language of non consent which means ok stop now, I would like to switch. It often feels like the energy shifts rapidly and it can feel like a revenge tactic and can escalate the giving of pain or punishment. I am certain that other switches understand this more so than those who have never switched, would never switch and indeed would never or rarely satisfactorily be able to form a relationship with a switch. if the switching is inter switching, that is with another partner or entirely within a different scene then it is agreed that no change of dynamic intervenes. It is usually controleable but with passion and desire not always so. In switching the shift does not mean a contest or an attempt to arrest power from the other person because at some point the power is deferred back.

sexyred1 -> RE: Why Subs Top from the Bottom (1/10/2011 2:58:35 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LaTigresse Every time I see this thread pop up I want to say......... "Because they can!" It's rather like someone upsetting us. They do it because we allow it. How can someone top a person that will not bottom? Yep, already said 'because they can' earlier on in the thread. The other thing I will say about this is what is the big deal anyway? Topping from below means so many things to many different people; it can be as simple as the sub just wanting to let the Dom know what feels good/ok/bad/OMFG/get the fuck away from____. So why the over analysis of it being trying to take over, wrest control away, etc. If someone I am with does not want my feedback, input, opinion, tastes, dislikes, hates, etc. and they say I am topping from below because I voice such things, then they will not have to worry about it too long since I will not engage with them again.

LaTigresse -> RE: Why Subs Top from the Bottom (1/10/2011 6:54:21 PM)
As I've already said.........communication is communication. It just is what it is. It isn't topping or bottoming it is communicating. What the intent is, how that intent is dealt with, that is the potential for what we are discussing. I believe my prior post on this thread was very clear in stating my opinion about communication and this topic. Example: you can tell me to go fuck myself. How I deal with that statement is the difference between you communicating and topping. If I go fuck myself, or in my personal opinion, toss a childish hissy fit, I am bottoming........to a degree. Perhaps a piss poor example but I've just driven through a snow storm and my brain is fried.

NihilusZero -> RE: Why Subs Top from the Bottom (1/10/2011 10:37:25 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LadyConstanze I think every relationship has a "test drive" phase, you talk about what both parties expect, in case it sounds like it is compatible, you try it carefully to get a feel (what's extreme for one person might be mild for another), that's what I consider the test drive phase, after all the talks when it comes down to it but the relationship hasn't yet moved to the phase where you know each other pretty well... I may not have explained what i meant well enough. What I meant, by "test-drive", is people who are in a test drive state with themselves (not in the beginning stages of a relationship), in the sense of not really knowing what they want or being confused about it or claiming to want one thing and then being incompatible with that ideal in actuality. quote: ORIGINAL: LadyConstanze As for safety, yes the dominant has a higher responsibility when it comes to play, simply because it's the dominant who's wielding the tools, however if the submissive was not honest in what they want and tries to manipulate, I seriously don't see the dominant part as responsible to make the relationship work, if somebody lies to me I'm out, I won't trust somebody who lied about what they were looking for, because I would always wonder what else they lied or will lie to me about. Agreed. But that's the easy part. The hard part is where people have, because of what I just mentioned above, have convinced themselves that they are in earnest about what they are saying/doing, but who clearly are not acting in a way indicative of that. Basic deception is easier to find and dismiss. People who have deceived themselves are often a bit harder to pick out. quote: ORIGINAL: LadyConstanze Let me clarify the test drive phase, as you seem to be quite eager to misunderstand... Is there a specific reason you've offered up this covertly inflammatory addition, divining a false intent behind my responses? quote: ORIGINAL: LadyConstanze New submissive tells me he's very service orientated, for the first few times he will only be doing service oriented tasks, now if I notice that he's deliberately breaking things to get "punished" - that's the end of the test drive. In case he'd have told me "I'm service orientated and a masochist, I like being punished" - it would have been not an issue, he would have gotten his reward, as a sadist I have no trouble giving pain, but somebody who lies to me because he thinks he might have a better chance by claiming he is service orientated, that one won't get over the "test drive" phase. I don't need to test drive myself, I know myself pretty well, but a new relationship I will test drive, especially since I made it clear from the start that I'm not looking for a life partner, got one of those... Okay. This isn't incompatible with what I've been saying at all.

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