What makes a man a man? (Full Version)

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SAMHAIN09 -> What makes a man a man? (12/25/2010 10:22:09 PM)

I'm curious what do you feel makes a man a man?




sunshinemiss -> RE: What makes a man a man? (12/25/2010 10:31:11 PM)

Rudyard Kipling

If

If you can keep your head when all about you
Are losing theirs and blaming it on you;
If you can trust yourself when all men doubt you,
But make allowance for their doubting too;
If you can wait and not be tired by waiting,
Or, being lied about, don't deal in lies,
Or, being hated, don't give way to hating,
And yet don't look too good, nor talk too wise;

If you can dream - and not make dreams your master;
If you can think - and not make thoughts your aim;
If you can meet with triumph and disaster
And treat those two imposters just the same;
If you can bear to hear the truth you've spoken
Twisted by knaves to make a trap for fools,
Or watch the things you gave your life to broken,
And stoop and build 'em up with wornout tools;

If you can make one heap of all your winnings
And risk it on one turn of pitch-and-toss,
And lose, and start again at your beginnings
And never breath a word about your loss;
If you can force your heart and nerve and sinew
To serve your turn long after they are gone,
And so hold on when there is nothing in you
Except the Will which says to them: "Hold on";

If you can talk with crowds and keep your virtue,
Or walk with kings - nor lose the common touch;
If neither foes nor loving friends can hurt you;
If all men count with you, but none too much;
If you can fill the unforgiving minute
With sixty seconds' worth of distance run -
Yours is the Earth and everything that's in it,
And - which is more - you'll be a Man my son!





Twoshoes -> RE: What makes a man a man? (12/25/2010 10:33:32 PM)

I watched too many episodes of Gilmore Girls and now I'm questioning my gender identity! [8D]




LanceHughes -> RE: What makes a man a man? (12/25/2010 10:53:34 PM)

When released in 1990, this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_John:_A_Book_About_Men caused an incredible up-surge in the general American (male) population which was asking the same question.  I have thought about (20 years later) revisiting it. LOL!

A little bit more from wiki:

"Iron John" (aka Iron Hans or Der Eisenhans) is a German fairy tale found in the collections of the Brothers Grimm, tale number 136, about a wild man and a prince. (The original German title is Eisenhans, a compound of Eisen "iron" and Hans, like English John a common short form of the personal name Johannes) It represents Aarne-Thompson type 502, "The wild man as a helper".[1]
Most people see the story as a parable about a boy maturing into adulthood. The story also became the basis for the book Iron John: A Book About Men by Robert Bly which spawned the Men's Movement in the early 1990s.

=================

BUT!  I've always used this: "A man is defined by his work."  - a quote from Lance Hughes.  And that's part of the basis for "Iron John," since it is "about a wild man and a prince."  Women do appear in "Iron John," and the final scene has John...

<...... spoiler alert! and I do mean spoiler, as in "who the hell saw THAT coming?" ...... >

... and the final scene has John marching into the castle to get married ! ! ! !

As a gay man, I thought "HEY! That is NOT what Rudyard Kipling had to say on the subject."  Note the poem "If" (thanks, sunshinemiss!) deals totally with the work that is being done.  I was going to quote relavant phrases of "If" to prove my point, but realized if I did so, I'd quote the whole thing. LOL!

Oh, and, yes, the Men's Movement seems to be homophobic.  Well, at the very least, "If you are homosexual, please don't get involved in this movement 'cause, y'know, we're kinda nervous at the thought of a gay man touching us."  LOL!

Bly is the leader of the mythopoetic part of the Men's Movement.  That "part" believes that "masculinity inherently comes with prescribed qualities, roles, responsibilities and privileges." - wiki.  Those roles and responsibiliteis are, by definition, "husband" and "father." - Pretty clearly NOT a gay perspective on masculinity.

Two or three of my gay Leather pals have gone "under cover" and infiltrated some of these "Men's Movement" meetings / weekend-long camps.  My friends come back and tell the wildest of tales.  Basically, the guys in these week-end "camps" get physical in just about every way except orally and anally.

"How's that again, Lance?" you ask......

Think DAMNed hot male-on-male BDSM.




Outlier2 -> RE: What makes a man a man? (12/25/2010 11:33:58 PM)

Since IF has already been covered, I am going to recommend some
further reading materials.

Here is a quote from one of the Travis McGee stories by John D McDonald.
In the stories McGee reflects on culture and his view of the world. This snippet
was written when the Equal Rights Movement was at its most zealous, thus the
ERA reference.  (title added)

A Man's Responsibities:

"Memory of a rumbling voice of the grandpa long ago:
"Anything you can't take care of, kid, you don't deserve to own.
A dog, a gun, a reel, a bike or a woman. You learn how to do it
and you do it, because if you don't you hate yourself."

An out-of-date morality. Anything you don't take care of, you replace.
Of course, the ERA wouldn't cotton to Grandpa's including a woman
in his list of ownership items. Grandma seemed a happy woman, however."


Along these same lines there are two small books by the writer Robert Ruark.

The Old Man And The Boy

The Old Man's Boy Grows Older

Both of these tell the story of Ruark as a boy being taken hunting and fishing
by his grandfather in North Carolina, and the lessons about life he learned
from him.  Read the reviews and you will see that many people consider these
books to be special treasures. 




SlaveOwnerDave -> What makes a man a man? (12/26/2010 8:19:52 AM)

As is the case with many men, I have asked myself this question repeatedly, though My years. The Rudyard Kipling piece, "If", posted by sunshinemiss, certainly receives My approval.

Being an engineer---by birth, apparently---My reading tends towards much more towards engineering handbooks, and Science Fiction, than it does toward common literature---even that which can be considered part of our cultural canon. The Kipling is, thus, new to Me, and much appreciated.

I am glad to see no one mentioned beard, muscles, outward behavior, and the like. Those are merely packaging, not even in the running for a place in the definition of a man. One would hardly even consider an attempt to defend the proposition of Steven Hawking not being a man!

In response to My believing My personality to be defective, I began comparing My behaviors with those of "normal people". The premise being differences would be discovered, such that I could alter My personality so that I might better fit in.
This idea has many obvious pratfalls, but that is because We are adults. I was, at that time, yet to turn sixteen. I expected useful data to pour forth from this exercise. Useful, yes; data, no; pour, forget it!
I was, over the years, to discern the defects in this process, and in the logic and the premises behind it. There is a process, but it consists of collecting years' worth of data, and an extremely powerful (i.e. S L O W) data-reduction procedure. Only recently, some forty years since the inception of this project, have sufficient data been reduced to understandable form. Faulty premises, skewed datasets, observer/observed errors, true personality errors (All those childhood traumas, don't you know!), My being an outlier in many ways, My personal growth, systemic errors, noise, volume of raw data, and many more effects, converted the seemingly mundane idea into a lifelong psychology project. One undertaken, as I said, by an engineer, rather than a psychologist. By a newly-independent mind, rather than an experienced adult.

So...
A Man is honest.--Far from being a handicap, I now consider My honesty My best feature.
A Man is correct--If He does make a mistake, He corrects the fallout, wherever it occurs.
A Man is centered--If you can keep your head when all about you are losing theirs
A Man knows Himself--He admits, and "owns", His errors---He rejects errors others attempt to project upon Him.
There are a few others, but My mind is going numb, and these make up the lion's share.

I have been derided, being told no man is those things. This is true...
The values I listed are a values baseline, they are not a person. One's personality is built upon, and is distinct from, one's values. There are those on here whose opinions and statements I value. There should be no need for Me to point out every one of them is wildly different than I! Indeed, their being different is what gives them their value.

As far as the limitations of the "Men's Movement"---the statement, "If you are homosexual, please don't get involved in this movement 'cause, y'know, we're kinda nervous at the thought of a gay man touching us." shows it to be not a men's movement, but a boy's club. Nothing Manly about bigotry.

My name is Master David Goodmen, and I approve the message I am trying to make! :-)




sexyred1 -> RE: What makes a man a man? (12/26/2010 8:25:53 AM)

Wasn't there just a thread called What Makes a Dom a Dom just the other day?

If you have to ask....if I don't say that it is an indefinable and individual thing because that is too broad, I will say that a man, to me, has true character, integrity, values, inner strength, the ability to admit weakness, sadness, etc., owns up to mistakes, continually works to self improve, protects those he loves, is kind, shows love and respect, and who can laugh at life's absurdities and move on.

I would also say those attributes make a woman, a woman.

Everything else is just window dressing.




Jaybeee -> RE: What makes a man a man? (12/26/2010 8:26:39 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: SAMHAIN09

I'm curious what do you feel makes a man a man?


Ownership of Testes and a Penis.




hausboy -> RE: What makes a man a man? (12/26/2010 8:56:07 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jaybeee


quote:

ORIGINAL: SAMHAIN09

I'm curious what do you feel makes a man a man?


Ownership of Testes and a Penis.


Ummmmmm.  Nope.  Try again.

So if you get castrated....and lose your willy in a traumatic accident.....are you no longer a man?
Women who lose their breasts to breast cancer, or have their ovaries removed for medical reaasons....are they not women?

I'm assuming you were just being snarky to such an open-ended post.

But if there is one thing I've learned on this planet: our body parts do not define who we are.  Our brains, our spirit, our behavior, actions--those define us. 

I am a man.  I can't fight it--can't change it, can't deny it.  And I didn't start of life with testes and a penis.  (unless you figure that we all start off female in our embryonic state, until genes and chemistry at work, descends the ovaries that become your sac, and what becomes a clit on a woman, becomes the penis on a male.)

Secondary sex characteristics (low voice, beard, body hair, etc.) don't make a man--they allow society to identify someone externally as a man.  Visual clues.

For those of you here who have never had the unfortunate experience of having your gender incongruent with your birth sex--it may seem impossible to even imagine.  It may be so outside your realm of experience that it hardly seems real or believable to you.  But I never truly understood what it was to be a man until I was forced to live a portion of my life as a woman.

edited for typos




ncbabe -> RE: What makes a man a man? (12/26/2010 9:04:57 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SAMHAIN09

I'm curious what do you feel makes a man a man?



Depends on your definition of 'man'.




Jaybeee -> RE: What makes a man a man? (12/26/2010 9:06:23 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: hausboy

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jaybeee


quote:

ORIGINAL: SAMHAIN09

I'm curious what do you feel makes a man a man?


Ownership of Testes and a Penis.


Ummmmmm.  Nope.  Try again.

So if you get castrated....and lose your willy in a traumatic accident.....are you no longer a man?
Women who lose their breasts to breast cancer, or have their ovaries removed for medical reaasons....are they not women?


I didn't state current ownership. Just ownership.

quote:

I'm assuming you were just being snarky to such an open-ended post.


"Snarky"??

quote:

For those of you here who have never had the unfortunate experience of having your gender incongruent with your birth sex--it may seem impossible to even imagine. It may be so outside your realm of experience that it hardly seems real or believable to you. But I never truly understood what it was to be a man until I was forced to live a portion of my life as a woman.


You know, I've often speculated that the battle of the sexes would end if each gender had to spend a month, somehow, as the other.




SlaveOwnerDave -> RE: What makes a man a man? (12/26/2010 9:37:45 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jaybeee


quote:

ORIGINAL: SAMHAIN09

I'm curious what do you feel makes a man a man?


Ownership of Testes and a Penis.

See, there's that package thing, again!

Testes and a penis make a male. The "man" part is on the INSIDE!

Sexyred1 gets it!




Hillwilliam -> RE: What makes a man a man? (12/26/2010 9:44:04 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Jaybeee


quote:

ORIGINAL: SAMHAIN09

I'm curious what do you feel makes a man a man?


Ownership of Testes and a Penis.

A Domme who owns a male slave would, by extension, own that pair of testes and the penis. Does that make her a man now?




Jaybeee -> RE: What makes a man a man? (12/26/2010 10:32:32 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam


quote:

ORIGINAL: Jaybeee


quote:

ORIGINAL: SAMHAIN09

I'm curious what do you feel makes a man a man?


Ownership of Testes and a Penis.

A Domme who owns a male slave would, by extension, own that pair of testes and the penis. Does that make her a man now?


Don't be stupid. No she wouldn't, and therefore, no that doesn't, respectively.




tazzygirl -> RE: What makes a man a man? (12/26/2010 11:02:01 AM)

Yes she would.




littlewonder -> RE: What makes a man a man? (12/26/2010 11:35:07 AM)

From the movie Hellboy:

"What makes a man a man? A friend of mine once wondered. Is it his origins? The way he comes to life? I don't think so. It's the choices he makes. Not how he starts things, but how he decides to end them"






SAMHAIN09 -> RE: What makes a man a man? (12/26/2010 1:32:47 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: littlewonder

From the movie Hellboy:

"What makes a man a man? A friend of mine once wondered. Is it his origins? The way he comes to life? I don't think so. It's the choices he makes. Not how he starts things, but how he decides to end them"



HA HA!!! I was wondering if someone would post that.




defiantbadgirl -> RE: What makes a man a man? (12/26/2010 1:46:18 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: SAMHAIN09

I'm curious what do you feel makes a man a man?


I consider someone a real man who has the following characteristics:

1. Honest

2. Reliable

3. Protective

4. Has a conscience

5. Self sufficient

6. Understanding

7. Doesn't expect perfection

8. Has never non-consentually physically abused a woman




SorceressJ -> RE: What makes a man a man? (12/26/2010 1:49:22 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: defiantbadgirl

I consider someone a real man who has the following characteristics:

1. Honest

2. Reliable

3. Protective

4. Has a conscience

5. Self sufficient

6. Understanding

7. Doesn't expect perfection

8. Has never non-consentually physically abused a woman



THIS.
Master Dave's post is excellent, too.




hausboy -> RE: What makes a man a man? (12/26/2010 2:46:40 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jaybeee

You know, I've often speculated that the battle of the sexes would end if each gender had to spend a month, somehow, as the other.


Most men wouldn't survive a month as a woman....  it's really so much harder. 





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