RE: What makes a man a man? (Full Version)

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RLMK -> RE: What makes a man a man? (12/27/2010 8:08:21 PM)

Personally, I've always favored this (Heinlein - he wants women held to the same standard, but I'm too much of a chauvinist who likes his women too feminine to go long w. that.)

"A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects."



hausboy -> RE: What makes a man a man? (12/27/2010 8:40:20 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Elisabella

I might be old-fashioned but I think someone has to actually be male to be a man.

Just one of those things.


seriously?  So the thousands of us who are men in every way and may (or may not) have a surgically constructed dick--we should be expected to announce to the world that we're really women because someone doesn't "believe" that we're really men? 

even my physical therapist, who has worked over almost every part of my body--has no idea that I began on this earth as a birth-identified female.  I switched physicians--and had to spend 30 minutes explaining to him that I really was an xx chromosome because he didn't believe me.  I'm male--it's not that I wanted to be male, or I believed I was male--I'm male.  I can't change that.  I tried everything possible to live with what nature started me off with-- it was impossible.  If you haven't been there yourself, don't judge--you have no idea. It was hell everyday that I opened my eyes.  I spent most days praying that I wouldn't wake up anymore.

it's not about old fashioned values, Elisabella.  It's about complete ignorance that society has about what constitutes sex and gender.  I was correctly (but informally, by an astute pre-school teacher) diagnosed with gender dysphoria at 3--I lived with and battled this disorder my entire life. My parents tore their hair out for years, wishing they could do something to help, watching me struggle with myself--knowing that inevitably this was the path I was going to take if I was ever going to find any semblance of peace and balance.  I was lucky--they have stood by me every step of the way, and they proudly call me their son.  If you ask my parents, they will tell you that they never really had a daughter to begin with.

People who hold onto what you call "old fashioned" values look at my birth certificate, see an "f" and that seems to give them to right to tell me what "I really am."  They are often the same people that want to "cure" homosexuality.  They have the right to tell me what I should do with my life--I have the right to tell them to shove a pole up their ass and twirl on it.

Today I live my life to the fullest--I feel good about my body, can look at myself in the mirror, and am able to function as a normal, healthy adult in today's world--and I do it as a man.  If you passed me by in the street, you wouldn't know that there was anything different about me from any other guy.  I don't need your "approval" or anyone elses--which is why I choose to live stealth--so I don't have to deal with ignorant people who think that the penis is what makes a man.

While you're at it, go ahead and post that all women who have had their ovaries or breasts removed...or are infertile...that they are not really women, because we all know that REAL women make babies, right? 






tazzygirl -> RE: What makes a man a man? (12/27/2010 8:59:14 PM)

Whoa.

Instead of taking a path to teach... and thank you for some of what you posted, it gave me something to think about... you attacked.

It is old fashioned to believe someone born with a penis is male, someone with a vagina is female. Medically and legally, these have a valid place in terminology. In actuality.......

Main Entry: 1fe·male
Pronunciation: \ˈfē-ˌmāl\
Function: noun
: an individual that bears young or produces eggs as distinguished from one that produces sperm ; especially : a woman or girl as distinguished from a man or boy

Main Entry: 1male
Pronunciation: \ˈmā(ə)l\
Function: noun
: an individual that produces small usually motile gametes (as sperm or spermatozoa) which fertilize the eggs of a female

http://www.merriam-webster.com/medlineplus/male

Does that make someone who is sterile not a male or female, therefore not a man or a woman? Hardly. No matter what the rule, there are always exceptions. In some species, the male can become female, or become asexual, and reproduce that way.

What makes a man a man is the mindset... the same as what makes a woman a woman. And THOSE beliefs are subjective and unique to each individual/relationship.

Im so very glad your family has stood beside you in all this, hausboy. Im sure you know how lucky you are in that aspect. You are also in a great position to teach others. Please, take advantage of that, at least on these boards.



hausboy -> RE: What makes a man a man? (12/27/2010 9:16:11 PM)

tazzygirl
I do apologize--I recognize that I was less than cordial to you and Elisabella, and you're right. That's not entirely fair to either of you.

I spent a good many years "teaching"--in fact, I made enough doing sensitivity training for corporations who were sued by transgendered employees-- I made the downpayment on one of my surgeries as a result. It seemed liked karma.  Forgive my defensiveness, but I've endured over 30 years of relentless bigotry--homophobia, sexism, transphobia--picked your 'ism" and some days I just reach a certain point where I get tired of it.  I thank goodness for the leatherdyke community, who fully accepted me a boy, no questions asked, for all those years that I cross-lived without surgery or hormones.  It was the only place I found solace without judgement.

I understand that is what the dictionary says.  I also know that the DSM-V once upon a time, considered homosexuality to be an illness.  What I "have" is still considered a mental disorder--there is a movement underfoot towards pushing to get it recognized as a medical condition, which is what I'm more inclined to believe it is.

edited to add: I do know how fortunate I am.  I've buried three friends who didn't have a support system, and felt that they had no other choice.



tazzygirl -> RE: What makes a man a man? (12/27/2010 9:29:19 PM)

I refused to bring in the mental aspect of the debate. Some may have a mental disorder, but, in my mind, there are far too many with gender issues to believe its all psychiatric. I also believe its because of the alternative lifestyle that so many are feeling comfortable enough to come out of the proverbial closet and admit to their true feelings. I believe its far more damaging to someones psyche to try and be what you are not.

I can also understand being tired of teaching. But no one is in a better position than you who is living it.



hausboy -> RE: What makes a man a man? (12/27/2010 9:54:38 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

I refused to bring in the mental aspect of the debate. Some may have a mental disorder, but, in my mind, there are far too many with gender issues to believe its all psychiatric. I also believe its because of the alternative lifestyle that so many are feeling comfortable enough to come out of the proverbial closet and admit to their true feelings. I believe its far more damaging to someones psyche to try and be what you are not.

I can also understand being tired of teaching. But no one is in a better position than you who is living it.


fair enough.  I may not have been born with a dick....  but sometimes I act like one. 
I'll try to be a little less grouchy.



tazzygirl -> RE: What makes a man a man? (12/27/2010 10:03:46 PM)

~smooches

Thank You!!!



Twoshoes -> RE: What makes a man a man? (12/27/2010 10:54:32 PM)

I only get bothered when people use the descriptor 'feminine' to imply weakness, when talking about men or women.



Tantriqu -> RE: What makes a man a man? (12/27/2010 11:05:43 PM)

I am a man by Kipling's definition, which actually describes a good, brave, strong, secure, driven, intelligent, polite, testosterone-filled person. Add 'libido', and it's also a fine definition of a domme.
But no work of art including this poem is perfect, since I'm not a gambler, I don't love all men, and some are VERY dear to me.
And yes, I Kipple!



tazzygirl -> RE: What makes a man a man? (12/27/2010 11:12:38 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Twoshoes

I only get bothered when people use the descriptor 'feminine' to imply weakness, when talking about men or women.


Being feminine isnt a weakness. It has its own strengths as well.



BonesFromAsh -> RE: What makes a man a man? (12/28/2010 5:03:30 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SAMHAIN09

I'm curious what do you feel makes a man a man?



"The world needs more men who do not have a price at which they can be bought;
Who do not borrow from integrity to pay for expediency;
whose handshake is an ironclad contract;
who are not afraid of risk;
who are honest in small matters as they are in large ones;
whose ambitions are big enough to include others;
who know how to win with grace and lose with dignity;
who do not believe that shrewdness and cunning and ruthlessness are the three keys to success;
who still have friends they made twenty years ago;
who are not afraid to go against the grain of popular opinion and do not believe in 'consensus';
who are occasionally wrong and always willing to admit it.

In short, the world needs leaders."

~Anonymous~ From "Readings from the Hurricane Island Outward Bound School"


How ironic that so much of this applies to both men and women.
"What makes a man a man?"....."What makes a woman a woman?".....I'd ask, what makes an adult an adult?



allthatjaz -> RE: What makes a man a man? (12/28/2010 7:14:07 AM)

I enjoyed reading this post because its shown a certain amount of ignorance and a lot of good common sense. I particularly enjoyed hausboy's posts.
We have some good friends who's daughter is in the process of becoming a son. He has wonderful parents but they have told us about some of the outright prejudice that they are coming up against.
A male is a male if he feels that is what he is, if he feels it in his heart, in his living being. He doesn't have to be masculine to be a male, he doesn't have to love women to be a male and he doesn't need male genitalia.



DMFParadox -> RE: What makes a man a man? (12/28/2010 5:28:00 PM)

Hausboy makes a damned good point: being a man is a real thing. The role we play reproductively is the end point, but the adaptions to that role extend far, far beyond simply having a penis. It may be that the male 'identity' is based on traits that are apparently not something we talk about, which is a real fucking shame... people are dying because of that. But regardless, it's a core identity that is not based on superficialities.



Elisabella -> RE: What makes a man a man? (12/28/2010 7:03:09 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: hausboy

seriously?  So the thousands of us who are men in every way and may (or may not) have a surgically constructed dick--we should be expected to announce to the world that we're really women because someone doesn't "believe" that we're really men? 



Yes I seriously believe men are male.

For what my opinion is worth (translation: it shouldn't mean much to strangers who find it offensive) I consider transgendered people to be transgendered. I wouldn't see a trans man as a woman simply because he was born one or as a man simply because he identified as one.

I respect the pain you've been through regarding your identity but I am amazed that a transgendered person can actually be offended by being considered transgendered.



hausboy -> RE: What makes a man a man? (12/28/2010 7:15:11 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Elisabella

Yes I seriously believe men are male.

For what my opinion is worth (translation: it shouldn't mean much to strangers who find it offensive) I consider transgendered people to be transgendered. I wouldn't see a trans man as a woman simply because he was born one or as a man simply because he identified as one.

I respect the pain you've been through regarding your identity but I am amazed that a transgendered person can actually be offended by being considered transgendered.


Thank you for clarifying--I don't find it offensive to be considered transgendered. I think what I was knee-jerk responding to was the whole "parts-make-the-person concept"--that I obviously don't agree with--and again, my apologies for voicing it so impolitely.

Your opinion *is* worth something--if it wasn't, I wouldn't have replied.  Your posts do often have important and relevant viewpoints and this topic I believe is worth discussing.

I know it's splitting hairs--while I am transgendered, I don't announce myself to the world as a TG man.  The only place I've ever really been out....is here.... and that's mostly to weed out the Dom/Dommes who are only interested in certain activities like CBT, chastity etc.  I've been dating a lot since my divorce....I don't introduce myself as a TG man to my dates--they get to know me for the man that I am. 

When we get to third base....well, then we'll have that discussion about me being transgendered.  My male-to-female sisters aren't always as fortunate.  Many of my MTF friends spend a considerable amount of time and energy focusing on "passing" as female, while I have the true luxury of not having to "pass"--I just exist as a man. 

For them, there is no closet---they are always seen as transgendered.   They are extremely brave as they have no choice but to endure the rude stares, the impolite remarks and the other various indignities--everything I endured before my transition. 

This is just my view--there are plenty of trans-folk who will vehemently disagree with what I've posted.

edited: typo/adjust quote box



MaxsGirl -> RE: What makes a man a man? (12/29/2010 6:32:44 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Elisabella

Yes I seriously believe men are male.

For what my opinion is worth (translation: it shouldn't mean much to strangers who find it offensive) I consider transgendered people to be transgendered. I wouldn't see a trans man as a woman simply because he was born one or as a man simply because he identified as one.

I respect the pain you've been through regarding your identity but I am amazed that a transgendered person can actually be offended by being considered transgendered.


This is exactly how I feel.  I have no problem with transgendered people, I just don't see them as being biologically the gender with which they identify.  That doesn't mean they aren't mentally that gender, however.  Maybe it's because I am a medical professional, but I tend to identify people as the gender that that physically are, unless instructed otherwise.  But also - and maybe this is because I'm basically androgynous (I happily identify as female only in the biological sense) - I don't treat males any differently than females, so it matters to me less than it probably does to others.



hausboy -> RE: What makes a man a man? (12/29/2010 2:00:25 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MaxsGirl

quote:

ORIGINAL: Elisabella

Yes I seriously believe men are male.

For what my opinion is worth (translation: it shouldn't mean much to strangers who find it offensive) I consider transgendered people to be transgendered. I wouldn't see a trans man as a woman simply because he was born one or as a man simply because he identified as one.

I respect the pain you've been through regarding your identity but I am amazed that a transgendered person can actually be offended by being considered transgendered.


This is exactly how I feel.  I have no problem with transgendered people, I just don't see them as being biologically the gender with which they identify.  That doesn't mean they aren't mentally that gender, however.  Maybe it's because I am a medical professional, but I tend to identify people as the gender that that physically are, unless instructed otherwise.  But also - and maybe this is because I'm basically androgynous (I happily identify as female only in the biological sense) - I don't treat males any differently than females, so it matters to me less than it probably does to others.


Hi Maxsgirl:
I'm a medical professional as well---biologically, you identify the person's sex.  Mentally--you have gender, and gender expression through secondary sex characteristics, mannerisms, (masculinity/femininity) and other social clues.  So in that sense--we would agree.  My chromosomal composition and original biology is that of a female. My sex chemistry, gender and gender expression are all male. 

And I've learned--through not only my own experience, but as one who has provided medical care to transgendered people--I make no assumptions regarding their sex, gender or identifier--I always ask, every patient.  The number of babies born with gender anomalies is much higher than what most realize, and chances are, if physicians (and family members) weren't in such a hurry to determine birth sex, we would have fewer children that fall into the wrong category.

Most birth certificates will not allow the entry of  "indeterminate and/or intersexed".



MaxsGirl -> RE: What makes a man a man? (12/29/2010 2:17:33 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: hausboy 

And I've learned--through not only my own experience, but as one who has provided medical care to transgendered people--I make no assumptions regarding their sex, gender or identifier--I always ask, every patient.  The number of babies born with gender anomalies is much higher than what most realize, and chances are, if physicians (and family members) weren't in such a hurry to determine birth sex, we would have fewer children that fall into the wrong category.

Most birth certificates will not allow the entry of  "indeterminate and/or intersexed".



I had the privilege of working in the mother/baby unit of a large hospital a few years ago, and saw with my own eyes the number of "indeterminate" babies.  Thankfully tests can be done now to judge XX from XY, which is at least better than assigning gender based on external genitalia as has been done in the past.

I want to point out that I do understand and respect the difference between sex and gender (my degree is in Psychology, after all) but "gender" tends to be used as a blanket term for both, and I'm as guilty of this as the next person.  So if I offended by implying that they are one and the same, I assure you it was unintentional, and I apologize.



hausboy -> RE: What makes a man a man? (12/29/2010 2:24:26 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MaxsGirl

quote:

ORIGINAL: hausboy 

And I've learned--through not only my own experience, but as one who has provided medical care to transgendered people--I make no assumptions regarding their sex, gender or identifier--I always ask, every patient.  The number of babies born with gender anomalies is much higher than what most realize, and chances are, if physicians (and family members) weren't in such a hurry to determine birth sex, we would have fewer children that fall into the wrong category.

Most birth certificates will not allow the entry of  "indeterminate and/or intersexed".



I had the privilege of working in the mother/baby unit of a large hospital a few years ago, and saw with my own eyes the number of "indeterminate" babies.  Thankfully tests can be done now to judge XX from XY, which is at least better than assigning gender based on external genitalia as has been done in the past.

I want to point out that I do understand and respect the difference between sex and gender (my degree is in Psychology, after all) but "gender" tends to be used as a blanket term for both, and I'm as guilty of this as the next person.  So if I offended by implying that they are one and the same, I assure you it was unintentional, and I apologize.


What's even more amazing....and I never knew this until about two years ago--the chromosomes are the not end-all either.  I was astonished, but there are some xx biological males and some xy biological females.  I also found an interesting kinship with biological men who suffered from microphallus syndrome. While raised male and identify as male, they share a surprisingly amount in common with FTMs, and dealing with ambiguous genitalia.



MaxsGirl -> RE: What makes a man a man? (12/29/2010 2:31:29 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: hausboy


What's even more amazing....and I never knew this until about two years ago--the chromosomes are the not end-all either.  I was astonished, but there are some xx biological males and some xy biological females.  I also found an interesting kinship with biological men who suffered from microphallus syndrome. While raised male and identify as male, they share a surprisingly amount in common with FTMs, and dealing with ambiguous genitalia.


And then there are the Klinefelter's men, who are XXY.  Endlessly fascinating stuff. [:D]  Human gender and sex can't even really be seen as catagories as much as a spectrum, with someone falling at pretty much any point on it, from male to female and everything in between.



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