Collarchat.com

Join Our Community		 Collarchat.com

Home  Login  Search 

The Birth place of Capitalism


View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest
 
All Forums >> [Community Discussions] >> Dungeon of Political and Religious Discussion >> The Birth place of Capitalism Page: [1] 2   next >   >>
Login
Message << Older Topic   Newer Topic >>
The Birth place of Capitalism - 12/26/2010 2:43:52 AM   
Aneirin


Posts: 6121
Joined: 3/18/2006
From: Tamaris
Status: offline 		Yeah it just had to be us didn't it, the English again, but wait it is not us, all of us at least for many of us still hold true to a common belief, but it seems our civil war of the Seventeenth century we were cheated. A king usurped and replaced by a parliament of people, but not all people are created equal it seems for what the English Civil War did was allow a bunch of corrupt self seeking capitalist merchants into power, which strangely, but not surprisingly draws many parallels with our current goverment. The Status Quo must be maintained and if those corrupt self seeking capitalist merchants are too busy with the trappings of politics, they gain many a person of the people to act in their favour, the career politicians who know how to line their own nests.

But Oliver Cromwell though guilty he is of creating it and allowing it, at least towards his later years he tried to make amends by delivering a short speech to the Long Parliament on the twentieth of April 1653 at it's dissolution ;

It is high time for me to put an end to your sitting in this place, which you have dishonoured by your contempt of all virtue, and defiled by your practice of every vice; ye are a factious crew, and enemies to all good government; ye are a pack of mercenary wretches, and would like Esau sell your country for a mess of pottage, and like Judas betray your God for a few pieces of money.

Is there a single virtue now remaining amongst you?
Is there one vice you do not possess?
Ye have no more religion than my horse; gold is your God; which of you have not barter'd your conscience for bribes?
Is there a man amongst you that has the least care for the good of the Commonwealth?

Ye sordid prostitutes have you not defil'd this sacred place, and turn'd the Lord's temple into a den of thieves, by your immoral principles and wicked practices?
Ye are grown intolerably odious to the whole nation; you who were deputed here by the people to get grievances redress'd, are yourselves gone!

So! Take away that shining bauble there,( reference to the official mace of parliament) and lock up the doors. In the name of God, go!

The Common wealth, interesting the use of the word wealth in that title.




_____________________________

Everything we are is the result of what we have thought, the mind is everything, what we think, we become - Guatama Buddha

Conservatism is distrust of people tempered by fear - William Gladstone
Profile   Post #: 1
RE: The Birth place of Capitalism - 12/26/2010 2:51:13 AM   
Politesub53


Posts: 14862
Joined: 5/7/2007
Status: offline 		Except wealth didnt mean wealth in a financial sense. It takes a bit of a stretch to likn Cameron to Cromwell but fair play for giving it a go.

(in reply to Aneirin)
Profile   Post #: 2
RE: The Birth place of Capitalism - 12/26/2010 3:33:52 AM   
Termyn8or


Posts: 18681
Joined: 11/12/2005
Status: offline 		Like Jesus throwing "them" out of the temple. I would give my left nut to be there.

T

(in reply to Aneirin)
Profile   Post #: 3
RE: The Birth place of Capitalism - 12/26/2010 5:49:36 AM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Aneirin

Yeah it just had to be us didn't it, the English again, but wait it is not us, all of us at least for many of us still hold true to a common belief, but it seems our civil war of the Seventeenth century we were cheated. A king usurped and replaced by a parliament of people, but not all people are created equal it seems for what the English Civil War did was allow a bunch of corrupt self seeking capitalist merchants into power, which strangely, but not surprisingly draws many parallels with our current goverment. The Status Quo must be maintained and if those corrupt self seeking capitalist merchants are too busy with the trappings of politics, they gain many a person of the people to act in their favour, the career politicians who know how to line their own nests.

But Oliver Cromwell though guilty he is of creating it and allowing it, at least towards his later years he tried to make amends by delivering a short speech to the Long Parliament on the twentieth of April 1653 at it's dissolution ;

It is far and away a good thing that the merchants took power in the House of Commons as the other option was the radical Puritans like Cromwell. The Irish and Scots can tell you all about the gentle and forgiving nature of Cromwell and the Puritans.

(in reply to Aneirin)
Profile   Post #: 4
RE: The Birth place of Capitalism - 12/26/2010 7:21:55 AM   
Aneirin


Posts: 6121
Joined: 3/18/2006
From: Tamaris
Status: offline 		This is what everybody who likes to rub the English noses in whatever always says, what England did to other countries, well, some information for you English cannot conquer other lands if it has not conquered it's own land first, that being, the English were the first to feel the English might.

As for Cromwell, he was just another power hungry tyrant that got the top based on half truths and lies, he even ordered the execution of the real England, so if you think England chooses roundhead or cavalier, parliament or crown, think again for there are many who have no support with either.

But for capitalism, if it was created in England at that time, only three hundred and fifty years or so and cracks are gaping wide it seems, the world over.

But what of the US, you know that land invaded and populated by immigrants flying from whatever they called tyranny and exploitation, could it have even been they fled from capitalism to create a country on great ideals and freedom for the common man, to become, well, what has the US become if not a capitalist society ?

Merchants exist for commerce, enter the city of London, that entity in the UK mirrored in other places the world over, merchants in positions of power are they any worse than religious leaders as one thing comes seething to the surface in both groups, that being the desire for power over others. But what is worse than capitalism or religious authority, why, but a combination of the two where wealth and religion walk hand in hand the people under that cloud are well and truly fucked for it has been noted through history that the church seeks and serves the wealthy and powerful.


< Message edited by Aneirin -- 12/26/2010 7:28:19 AM >

_____________________________

Everything we are is the result of what we have thought, the mind is everything, what we think, we become - Guatama Buddha

Conservatism is distrust of people tempered by fear - William Gladstone

(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 5
RE: The Birth place of Capitalism - 12/26/2010 11:25:33 AM   
Politesub53


Posts: 14862
Joined: 5/7/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

It is far and away a good thing that the merchants took power in the House of Commons as the other option was the radical Puritans like Cromwell. The Irish and Scots can tell you all about the gentle and forgiving nature of Cromwell and the Puritans.



Ken, you need to look at the whole story. Many of the first atrocities were carried out prior to Cromwell sending troops to Ireland during the Irish rebellion of 1641. Thousands of planters ( Ulster Massacres ) were murdered. You also had the Bishops wars between Charles 1st and Scottish Bishops prior to the English civil war. This was due to Charles trying to unify the three Churches.  Add to that infighting between powerful Clans, such as the Campbells and Macdonalds, Montrose against the Covernanters and the picture becomes blury. Much of the killing was carried out by Royalist Clans under Montrose ( Clan Graham )

The timeframe is known as The War of The Three Kingdoms. Cromwells later atrocities were carried out against  Royalist supporters, be they English, Irish or Scottish. Charles 2nd later carried out atrocities against supporters of the anti-Royalists in the three Kingdoms.

Much of the above traces right back to Clan links with the Normans after 1066. Treatys, alliances, you name it.


(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 6
RE: The Birth place of Capitalism - 12/26/2010 11:45:08 AM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

It is far and away a good thing that the merchants took power in the House of Commons as the other option was the radical Puritans like Cromwell. The Irish and Scots can tell you all about the gentle and forgiving nature of Cromwell and the Puritans.



Ken, you need to look at the whole story. Many of the first atrocities were carried out prior to Cromwell sending troops to Ireland during the Irish rebellion of 1641. Thousands of planters ( Ulster Massacres ) were murdered. You also had the Bishops wars between Charles 1st and Scottish Bishops prior to the English civil war. This was due to Charles trying to unify the three Churches.  Add to that infighting between powerful Clans, such as the Campbells and Macdonalds, Montrose against the Covernanters and the picture becomes blury. Much of the killing was carried out by Royalist Clans under Montrose ( Clan Graham )

The timeframe is known as The War of The Three Kingdoms. Cromwells later atrocities were carried out against  Royalist supporters, be they English, Irish or Scottish. Charles 2nd later carried out atrocities against supporters of the anti-Royalists in the three Kingdoms.

Much of the above traces right back to Clan links with the Normans after 1066. Treatys, alliances, you name it.



I never said Cromwell was solely to blame just that his particular brand of Puritanism was prone to a sort of brutality that is undesirable in the entrenched leadership of a nation.

(in reply to Politesub53)
Profile   Post #: 7
RE: The Birth place of Capitalism - 12/26/2010 11:52:44 AM   
Politesub53


Posts: 14862
Joined: 5/7/2007
Status: offline 		Point taken Ken.

Cromwell started off with the right ideals, but then seemed to get carried away with the power he held, as so often happens.

(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 8
RE: The Birth place of Capitalism - 12/26/2010 12:14:37 PM   
kdsub


Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline 		I just don't understand...what the hell is wrong with Capitalism? Are we looking at different definitions? Don't you like the right to own, develop, and profit from your own endeavors?

Capitalism has nothing to do with politics... you can have good men and women who own or invest in private business as well as bad. But it is the people not the principles of Capitalism that make good or bad politicians.

Butch

_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

(in reply to Aneirin)
Profile   Post #: 9
RE: The Birth place of Capitalism - 12/26/2010 1:06:20 PM   
willbeurdaddy


Posts: 11894
Joined: 4/8/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

I just don't understand...what the hell is wrong with Capitalism?


To a Marxist like Aneirin, everything.

_____________________________

Hear the lark
and harken
to the barking of the dogfox,
gone to ground.

(in reply to kdsub)
Profile   Post #: 10
RE: The Birth place of Capitalism - 12/26/2010 2:01:44 PM   
Aneirin


Posts: 6121
Joined: 3/18/2006
From: Tamaris
Status: offline 		Capitalism, do you get working longer hours for ever decreasing pay and rising costs and the debt that follows followed by the despair and hoplessness, for capitalism is about that when it is allowed to run away with itself, the minority thrive and prosper and the majority sink further into economic slavery. The propsperous minority then seek to make and control the law and the policies of state so no one can challenge them because any challenge will then become against the law.

Is capitalism running away with itself ?

Well the answer to that would always depend on where you sit in life, for I have noticed many of those that have a comfortable existence tend to think capitalism is the way forward and those that struggle to survive keep on questing a better way forward but when the majority become the extreme majority and the minority the extreme few something will break, because to be anything less is undemocratic. Democracy, you know, that thing the western nations try to force upon others in the world, a better system, but where does it lead if it as always follows the lines of that same old mould.

But as to charges of Marxism, well the old commie under the bed syndrome, I expect nothing less from certain writers on this website who play the game of labelling so as to convince themselves that they are right in their blindness.


_____________________________

Everything we are is the result of what we have thought, the mind is everything, what we think, we become - Guatama Buddha

Conservatism is distrust of people tempered by fear - William Gladstone

(in reply to willbeurdaddy)
Profile   Post #: 11
RE: The Birth place of Capitalism - 12/26/2010 2:07:48 PM   
willbeurdaddy


Posts: 11894
Joined: 4/8/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Aneirin

But as to charges of Marxism, well the old commie under the bed syndrome, I expect nothing less from certain writers on this website who play the game of labelling so as to convince themselves that they are right in their blindness.



You label yourself with your own words that come straight out of Das Kapital.

_____________________________

Hear the lark
and harken
to the barking of the dogfox,
gone to ground.

(in reply to Aneirin)
Profile   Post #: 12
RE: The Birth place of Capitalism - 12/26/2010 2:24:22 PM   
Aneirin


Posts: 6121
Joined: 3/18/2006
From: Tamaris
Status: offline 		H'mmm, interesting, I have never read Das Kapital nor prior to you mentioning it, have ever heard of it, but you seem pretty clued up on what I assume are Marxist works ?

My beliefs come from what I discern of history and how it is being repeated in the present, history provides the model those of today follow for the future.

I see in this world, not just the world at large but the western world there is growing dissatisfaction, quite possibly the same as has always existed, but now we have advanced communication that lets the quiet people be heard and it is being heard loud and clear, the system ain't working and communication provides the tools.

Maybe ironic, but every advance in communication technology that so fills the pockets of those that profit from the new technologies also provides the instrument of their undoing, their exposure to the masses.


_____________________________

Everything we are is the result of what we have thought, the mind is everything, what we think, we become - Guatama Buddha

Conservatism is distrust of people tempered by fear - William Gladstone

(in reply to willbeurdaddy)
Profile   Post #: 13
RE: The Birth place of Capitalism - 12/26/2010 2:48:04 PM   
willbeurdaddy


Posts: 11894
Joined: 4/8/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Aneirin

Maybe ironic, but every advance in communication technology that so fills the pockets of those that profit from the new technologies also provides the instrument of their undoing, their exposure to the masses.



And improves every ones lives and standard of living. What a shame.

_____________________________

Hear the lark
and harken
to the barking of the dogfox,
gone to ground.

(in reply to Aneirin)
Profile   Post #: 14
RE: The Birth place of Capitalism - 12/26/2010 2:59:39 PM   
Aneirin


Posts: 6121
Joined: 3/18/2006
From: Tamaris
Status: offline 		Yes, perhaps for the first time in history the dispossessed have access to information, history beyond books, happenings beyond newspapers and the thoughts of others of their own mind, it will be interesting to see what political future arises from the internet age.

_____________________________

Everything we are is the result of what we have thought, the mind is everything, what we think, we become - Guatama Buddha

Conservatism is distrust of people tempered by fear - William Gladstone

(in reply to willbeurdaddy)
Profile   Post #: 15
RE: The Birth place of Capitalism - 12/26/2010 3:08:07 PM   
Aneirin


Posts: 6121
Joined: 3/18/2006
From: Tamaris
Status: offline 		Capitalism for Dummies

Traditional Capitalism: You have two cows. You sell one and buy a bull. Your herd multiplies, and the economy grows. You sell them and retire on the income.

American Capitalism: You have two cows. You sell one, and force the other to produce the milk of four cows. You are surprised when the cow drops dead.

French Capitalism: You have two cows. You go on strike because you want three cows.

Japanese Capitalism: You have two cows. You redesign them so they are one-tenth the size of an ordinary cow and produce twenty times the milk. You then create cow cartoon images called Cowkimon and market them World-Wide.

German Capitalism: You have two cows. You reengineer them so they live for 100 years, eat once a month, and milk themselves.

Italian Capitalism: You have two cows, but you don't know where they are. You break for lunch.

British Capitalism: You have two cows. Both are mad.

Russian Capitalism: You have two cows. You count them and learn you have five cows. You count them again and learn you have 42 cows. You count them again and learn you have 12 cows. You stop counting cows and open another bottle of vodka.

Arkansas Capitalism: You have two cows. That one on the left is kinda cute...

Hindu Capitalism: You have two cows. You worship them.

Swiss Capitalism: You have 5000 cows, none of which belong to you. You charge others for storing them.

Canadian Capitalism: You have two cows. Let's make a hockey team, eh?

Chinese Capitalism: You have two cows. You have 300 people milking them. You claim full employment, high bovine productivity, and arrest the newsman who reported the numbers.

Irish Capitalism: You have two cows. You feed them potatoes and wonder why they emigrate.

Israeli Capitalism: So, there are these two Jewish cows, right? They open a milk factory, an ice cream store, and then sell the movie rights. They send their calves to Harvard to become doctors. So, who needs people?

Enron Capitalism: You have two cows. You sell three of them to your publicly listed company, using letters of credit opened by your brother-in-law at the bank, then execute a debt/equity swap with an associated general offer so that you get all four cows back, with a
tax exemption for five cows. The milk rights of the six cows are transferred via an intermediary to a Cayman Island company secretly owned by the majority shareholder who sells the rights to all seven cows back to your listed company. The annual report says the company owns eight cows, with an option on one more. Sell one cow to buy a new president of the United States, leaving you with nine cows. No balance sheet provided with the release. The public buys your bull.

Cuban Capitalism: You have two cows. They try to swim to Florida.

Politically Correct Capitalism: You are associated with (the concept of "ownership" is a symbol of the phallo centric, war mongering, intolerant past) two differently - aged (but no less valuable to society) bovines of non-specified gender.

Disney Capitalism: You have two cows. They dance & sing.

Microsoft Capitalism: You have two cows. You patent them and sue anyone else who has them.

Hollywood Capitalism: You have two cows. You give them utter implants and also teach them to bullet-dodge, wall climb and shoot milk out of their utters on command.

Clinton Capitalism: You have two cows. You deny any knowledge of them.

Bureaucratic Capitalism: You have two cows. They are cared for by ex-chicken farmers. You have to take care of the chickens the government took from the chicken farmers. The government gives you as much milk and eggs the regulations say you should need.

Gore Capitalism: You have two cows. You claim you invented them.

Real-World Capitalism: You have two cows. You share two cows with your neighbors. You and your neighbors bicker about who has the most "ability" and who has the most "need". Meanwhile, no one works, no one gets any milk, and the cows drop dead of starvation.

Australian Capitalism: You have two cows. You try to wrestle them.

Iraqi Capitalism: You have two cows. They are biochemical weapons.

Perestroika Capitalism: You have two cows. You have to take care of them, but the government takes all the milk. You steal back as much milk as you can and sell it on the black market.

Jewish Capitalism: You have two cows. You set them on fire and they burn for 8 days.

Cambodian Capitalism: You have two cows. The government takes both and shoots you.

Mormon Capitalism: You have two cows. You tell everyone that they should as well.

Military Capitalism: You have two cows. The government takes both and drafts you.

Texan Capitalism: You have two cows. You teach them to fire guns.

Totalitarian Capitalism: You have two cows. The government takes them and denies they ever existed. Milk is banned.

Nevadan Capitalism: You have two cows. You charge lonely men from Arkansas to spend the night with them.

Jehovah's Witness Capitalism: You have two cows. You go door to door telling people that you do.

Bureaucrat Capitalism: You have two cows. At first the government regulates what you can feed them and when you can milk them. Then it pays you not to milk them. Then it takes both, shoots one, milks the other and pours the milk down the drain. Then it requires you to fill
out forms accounting for the missing cows.

Real Capitalism: You don't have any cows. The bank will not lend you money to buy cows, because you don't have any cows to put up as collateral.

Environmental Capitalism: You have two cows. The government bans you from milking them.

Surreal Capitalism: You have two giraffes. The government requires you to take harmonica lessons.

Californian Capitalism: You have two cows. They are happy.

Bush Capitalism: You have two cows. You think that cows and humans can coexist peacefully. You give all of the milk to the upper class when they have cows of their own, and the lower class needs milk.

Martha Stewart Capitalism: You have two cows. After decorating them, you sell them because a farmer told you the price of milk might go down.

Ayn Rand Capitalism: You have two cows. You sell both so that you can invest in a new dairy company. After it does well, you sell you stock and buy a cow farm. After that does well, you take out a loan using cows as capitol and build a milk manufacturing factory. After making your milk the most sold, you sell the company and retire to Hawaii with your millions of
dollars.

_____________________________

Everything we are is the result of what we have thought, the mind is everything, what we think, we become - Guatama Buddha

Conservatism is distrust of people tempered by fear - William Gladstone

(in reply to Aneirin)
Profile   Post #: 16
RE: The Birth place of Capitalism - 12/26/2010 3:20:06 PM   
willbeurdaddy


Posts: 11894
Joined: 4/8/2006
Status: offline 		Socialism for dummies:

Whats mine is mine and whats yours is mine.

_____________________________

Hear the lark
and harken
to the barking of the dogfox,
gone to ground.

(in reply to Aneirin)
Profile   Post #: 17
RE: The Birth place of Capitalism - 12/26/2010 3:29:46 PM   
Aneirin


Posts: 6121
Joined: 3/18/2006
From: Tamaris
Status: offline 		No, if you think I am a socialist, marxist or whatever, define from my ethos;

Whats yours is yours and what mine is mine, but I am willing to share and give what surplus I do not need to those who need a hand up.

_____________________________

Everything we are is the result of what we have thought, the mind is everything, what we think, we become - Guatama Buddha

Conservatism is distrust of people tempered by fear - William Gladstone

(in reply to willbeurdaddy)
Profile   Post #: 18
RE: The Birth place of Capitalism - 12/26/2010 3:47:27 PM   
willbeurdaddy


Posts: 11894
Joined: 4/8/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Aneirin

No, if you think I am a socialist, marxist or whatever, define from my ethos;

Whats yours is yours and what mine is mine, but I am willing to share and give what surplus I do not need to those who need a hand up.


You better re-read your own posts. This isnt even fucking close to the practices you espouse.

_____________________________

Hear the lark
and harken
to the barking of the dogfox,
gone to ground.

(in reply to Aneirin)
Profile   Post #: 19
RE: The Birth place of Capitalism - 12/26/2010 3:47:55 PM   
liks2plzlf


Posts: 390
Joined: 7/21/2005
Status: offline 		Just wondering if there are rich people in socialist countries?

(in reply to Aneirin)
Profile   Post #: 20
Page:   [1] 2   next >   >>
All Forums >> [Community Discussions] >> Dungeon of Political and Religious Discussion >> The Birth place of Capitalism Page: [1] 2   next >   >>
Jump to:





New Messages No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages Locked w/o New Messages
 Post New Thread
 Reply to Message
 Post New Poll
 Submit Vote
 Delete My Own Post
 Delete My Own Thread
 Rate Posts




Collarchat.com © 2024
Terms of Service Privacy Policy Spam Policy

0.094