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RE: Are the British more law abiding than Americans? - 1/1/2011 10:14:57 AM   
LadyConstanze


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quote:

ORIGINAL: flcouple2009

My understanding from my German friends is that Germany is one of the easiest places in Europe to own a gun and many of them do.

The way it was explained to me is that the easiest way to get a license is under the provision for Sport Shooters.  Whether you get a yellow card or green depends on the type of weapon.  There was nothing difficult to complete only time consuming. 

You have to complete a gun course which they described as taking 2 to 4 evenings and then take a multiple choice test.  That is followed by a practical exam showing that you can handle the weapon in a safe manner.

The time consuming part is where you must show that you have been "regularly and successfully" practicing under the rules of an approved shooting association.  They explained that to me as finding a Shooting Club that you fit in with and going practice a couple of times a month.  It was also pointed out to me that the Shooting Clubs were easy to find as there are over 30 just in the Stuttgart area. 

You've joined as club and become a sport shooter.  That fulfills the need portion.  A license for hunting or a license to carry are both much harder to come by but the sport shooters license is pretty easy.  There are a lot of 12 year old Americans who could qualify.

The whole idea that Europeans don't like guns is a myth.   Like everything else, some do and some don't.  There is a huge gun range in Orlando right in the middle of the tourist area.  It does huge business with the European tourist.  It might be the only time some of them leave Disney property.  They love renting the automatics and big calibers and banging away. 



I think you may want to check with your German friends again, because even as a sport shooter you are not allowed to take your weapon outside of the club or home, in fact by law the guns (and we are not talking pistols but sport riffles) have to be securely locked up, there is a reason why it's quite an expensive sport, simply due to all the security precautions. How would I know that? My parents live there and one of my father's friends is a member in one of the shooting clubs, and before your accepted you have to go through a background check (which you pay for yourself) to show you have never had any run ins with the law. I once went with him to practice and had to hand over my passport, since he vouched for me I was allowed to fire his weapon but only with training ammunition...
In certain clubs people were allowed (under provisions) to take the weapons home but had to show beyond doubt that they are kept safe there, which means a locked gun cupboard that will make it impossible for a burglar to open. But that is changing too since one woman lost her mind and started shooting...

I think somebody told you a bunch of lies. Your idea that it's easy to have guns in Germany is "cute" but unfortunately very inaccurate.

ETA: Maybe your friends were talking about air-riffles? Those don't require much of a license but aren't really the same as guns, the targets are usually from paper or clay because they simply couldn't penetrate something hard.

< Message edited by LadyConstanze -- 1/1/2011 10:22:21 AM >

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RE: Are the British more law abiding than Americans? - 1/1/2011 10:25:02 AM   
pahunkboy


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Status: offline 		A rifle is not a gun. It is a fire arm... but not a handgun or a pistol 

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RE: Are the British more law abiding than Americans? - 1/1/2011 10:33:13 AM   
SL4V3M4YB3


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Status: offline 		So what is rifling then?

Call me old fashioned but I liked it when words held their original meaning. Perhaps when someone fires a handgun the bullets come out at an angle due to not having any rifling.

I've never understood this categorisation.

Rifling not to be confused with rifles.

< Message edited by SL4V3M4YB3 -- 1/1/2011 10:38:02 AM >

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RE: Are the British more law abiding than Americans? - 1/1/2011 10:46:59 AM   
stef


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SL4V3M4YB3

So what is rifling then?

My favorite online dictionary says that rifling is a system of spiral grooves cut in the surface of the bore of a gun leaving intervening lands that cut into the projectile when fired or into a metal band secured to it and rotate it about its longer axis.

Pretty pictures and a more in-depth explanation is available here.

quote:

Perhaps when someone fires a handgun the bullets come out at an angle due to not having any rifling.

Handguns have rifled barrels.

~stef


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RE: Are the British more law abiding than Americans? - 1/1/2011 10:50:29 AM   
flcouple2009


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Status: offline 		Sorry my dear, my sources are excellent.  A police officer and while I can't remember his official title the other is what would be a federal judge here.

Tidbit for you Air rifles that are rated over 7.5 joules require the same license as a firearm. 

I hate to break this to you but the rules are very similar to here.  You do know in the US your not allowed to own if your a convicted felon or have mental issues.  You might actually want to read what the German law says.  I don't know jack about anywhere else in Europe but courtesy of them I do not a lot about Germany.

There are laws on how guns must be kept, how the ammo must be handled, how they can be transported.  I can assure you most of the gun owners in this forum wouldn't have any trouble picking up the license if they were German.

Here are a couple of other tidbits I know many of the European posters don't understand.  Possession of an unregistered handgun in many states is a felony.  Let's suppose you have your gun and home and for whatever reason it is loaded.  You decide to pop out to the range and grab the gun and toss the gun in the glove box.  You are late getting through a red light and get pulled over.  While opening up the glove box to get your vehicle registration the gun falls out.  Even though it is legally yours you could be charged with a concealed weapon since it is loaded. 

Sorry to disappoint but this is not the wild west many Europeans believe.


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RE: Are the British more law abiding than Americans? - 1/1/2011 10:50:46 AM   
SL4V3M4YB3


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Status: offline 		Does this dictionary also contain the word 'Rhetorical'?

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RE: Are the British more law abiding than Americans? - 1/1/2011 10:53:31 AM   
Politesub53


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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

Maybe the gap is in the American notion that our rights are inherent, and laws that intrude on them are for ignoring, vs. the Old World acceptance of their rights being something granted by king/government?


English democracy changed forever under Cromwell. Lets not forget we did away with a King long before the French revolution. The monarchy stay on the throne due to public demand and not the divine right of Kings.

As for the law, I doubt we are any more law abiding than the US, just that gun crime is not so frequent here, mainly due to a lack of the need for gun ownership. Gun crime has increased recently with the influx of weapons since the break up of the Soviet Union. It isnt true British police dont carry arms either, some do some dont. Most on foot patrol dont, but have easy access to armed response untits.

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RE: Are the British more law abiding than Americans? - 1/1/2011 10:54:50 AM   
LadyConstanze


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Status: offline 		This is what is commonly referred as an air rifle

As I said a few times, English is unfortunately not my first (or 2nd) language




I just checked up, the law was indeed changed again on the 17th of July 2009 after Winnennden, where a 17 year old got the Beretta 92 of his father and ran amok, now even the so called sport schuetzen (sport shooters in clubs) aren't allowed to take the weapons home, which previously they could with special permission but they weren't allowed ammunition (seems a bit retarded because one would think it's easier to get hold of ammunition than it is to get a gun), which apparently the father of this guy violated.

Different states within Germany tend to have slightly different laws, so it might be a bit stricter in one place and a bit less strict in another, but in general the German "Waffengesetz" is considered one of the strictest in the world.


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RE: Are the British more law abiding than Americans? - 1/1/2011 10:58:06 AM   
stef


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SL4V3M4YB3

Does this dictionary also contain the word 'Rhetorical'?

I'm sure it does, but based upon your posting history, I honestly considered the concept somewhat beyond your reach.

Mea culpa.

~stef


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RE: Are the British more law abiding than Americans? - 1/1/2011 11:06:35 AM   
SL4V3M4YB3


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quote:

ORIGINAL: stef
I'm sure it does, but based upon your posting history, I honestly considered the concept somewhat beyond your reach.

Mea culpa.

~stef

From your posting history I was actually amazed that you wrote more than one line but as always it was an insult. I score it 5 out of 10.


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RE: Are the British more law abiding than Americans? - 1/1/2011 11:14:55 AM   
pahunkboy


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Status: offline 		FL-  we can not confuse conceal carry with simply having one in your house.

Simply having one in the house is a looser standard then a conceal carry.

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RE: Are the British more law abiding than Americans? - 1/1/2011 11:20:42 AM   
TheHeretic


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SL4V3M4YB3

You practically give up inherent rights when you decide to be part of society because lawmakers have to decide what being a responsible member of society means; what rights you need and which rights you can do without.



Yeah... I completely disagree with this assessment, SL4. Thanks for such a lovely example of the disconnect between our two cultures.

Here in my country, we believe certain rights are granted (or specfically denied) to the lawmakers by the people, that government may fulfill it's functions. It is the source of the authority that matters.

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RE: Are the British more law abiding than Americans? - 1/1/2011 11:30:11 AM   
SL4V3M4YB3


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Status: offline 		I'm an honest pragmatist, some can see where they are and what they have whereas others think what they have is superior without really getting into the details of how it is. If you was to ask the majority of the British public if they wanted the right to own guns they'd say no. Therefore who is being denied any freedom they need?

Prostitution has already been mentioned as a freedom you don't have. I'll add to that the freedom to take whatever drugs you want and freedom to cross the road at undesignated crossings. These are freedoms that mainly affect nobody but the individuals involved, however the individual doesn't have them there. You talk of rights/freedoms as if there is some obvious list that we can all agree on.

Someone is always in the minority and thus someone is always having their freedoms removed by society no matter what the romantic notion placed upon the functionality of that society.

< Message edited by SL4V3M4YB3 -- 1/1/2011 11:33:17 AM >

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RE: Are the British more law abiding than Americans? - 1/1/2011 11:33:27 AM   
pahunkboy


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Status: offline 		The Brits are inherently more obedient to the Crown- and thus healthy fare NWO fodder.

They have allowed silliness that Americas have delayed for some years- the peril is that now we are imitated this failed policy of mercantilism and the East India Company.

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RE: Are the British more law abiding than Americans? - 1/1/2011 11:36:05 AM   
SL4V3M4YB3


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From: S.E. London U.K.
Status: offline 		Not the crown again.

The East India Company? Is that still going

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RE: Are the British more law abiding than Americans? - 1/1/2011 11:45:14 AM   
TheHeretic


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SL4V3M4YB3

The East India Company? Is that still going



I don't think so. You guys are pretty much down to the tourism their majesties draw, and a smug attitude.

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RE: Are the British more law abiding than Americans? - 1/1/2011 11:52:25 AM   
SL4V3M4YB3


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From: S.E. London U.K.
Status: offline 		Yep the illusion of grandeur, we've been selling that crap for years. Always someone willing to buy. Nobody gives a damn about Monaco's Royal family.

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RE: Are the British more law abiding than Americans? - 1/1/2011 11:52:42 AM   
pahunkboy


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From: Central Pennsylvania
Status: offline 		Also- with the cut backs- more and more of the police are forced to go on horse back. We seen this when they kettled the student protesters.  The high cost of gas- makes even motorcycles in-efficient over there... same deal with snow plows- even if they owned them gas is like $15 a gallon.

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RE: Are the British more law abiding than Americans? - 1/1/2011 11:54:35 AM   
PeonForHer


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Status: offline 		Just to get things in proportion: a site showing number of guns in relation to number of residents.  In the USA, in 2007, there were 90 guns per 100 people; in Germany, 30; in the UK, 5.6. 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_gun_ownership

< Message edited by PeonForHer -- 1/1/2011 11:55:17 AM >

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RE: Are the British more law abiding than Americans? - 1/1/2011 11:54:42 AM   
flcouple2009


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Status: offline 		Air Rifles have different strengths.  Target air rifles are treated the same as fire arms as far as license. 

The problem in Germany is not getting the license or ownership.  It's dealing with the changing rules on proper transport, where you can have it, and ammo.  Some of that has been tried here but the uproar makes it go nowhere.

Interesting note the big gun range in Orlando on International Drive right in the middle of tourist land overflows with Brits and Germans in particular.


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