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RE: Pope Says God is Behind the Big Bang - 1/21/2011 3:54:43 AM   
tweakabelle


Posts: 7522
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Status: offline 		How crass of me! What was I thinking, daring to steal your thunder? Can I blame it on my hormones please?

Please take all credit due and whatever extra you can get away with. Clearly it would be wasted on me.

It was kind and gracious of tazzygirl to say what she said, but I was under the misapprehension that I was taking part in a discussion, not a debate.

Misapprehension that is until you came along and clarified everything for everyone. I shall forever be in your thrall........

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RE: Pope Says God is Behind the Big Bang - 1/21/2011 8:39:59 AM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
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Status: offline 		What is up with all the men whining lately!

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RE: Pope Says God is Behind the Big Bang - 1/21/2011 9:04:43 AM   
BenevolentM


Posts: 3394
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quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

How crass of me! What was I thinking, daring to steal your thunder? Can I blame it on my hormones please?

Please take all credit due and whatever extra you can get away with. Clearly it would be wasted on me.

It was kind and gracious of tazzygirl to say what she said, but I was under the misapprehension that I was taking part in a discussion, not a debate.

Misapprehension that is until you came along and clarified everything for everyone. I shall forever be in your thrall........


In another thread I wrote:

quote:

ORIGINAL: BenevolentM

What I'm talking about is a lack of empathy. Yes, I could benefit from a girlfriend, but I require something more meaningful. Someone wonderful. Surely, there must be an angel out there. The world could not possibly be that barren. Could it? The problem it is likely we are all in the same boat.


As long as you are willing to take correction I suppose I could forgive you, but I was wondering when you wrote "I shall forever be in your thrall." if you really meant it because I am looking for a girlfriend.

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RE: Pope Says God is Behind the Big Bang - 1/21/2011 1:31:51 PM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

On the other hand I don't consider the non-theist Buddhist monks we were talking about to be so much in opposition to theism as holding a world view that's unrelated.

The observation I was relying on, in the post that started this, was simply that the two views appear to be mutually exclusive. I don't think they are unrelated, however. Although they represent different ways of expressing the nature of life and our relationship to the universe, their practices appear to lead to the same changes in cognitive functioning. What I think this shows is that no conceptualization, theistic or otherwise, is adquate to the task of communicating that understanding, and that a rigid dependence on the letter of texts misses the point. A Zen teaching story tells of a young monk who begged of his Abbot how best to teach the truths of the Sutras. The Abbot laughed, "Burn them!" Not literally, of course, but you see the point. The finger that points toward the Moon is not the Moon.

K.

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RE: Pope Says God is Behind the Big Bang - 1/21/2011 3:32:37 PM   
anthrosub


Posts: 843
Joined: 6/2/2004
Status: offline 		"The finger that points toward the Moon is not the Moon."

Perfect! That was exactly my point way, way back when I was saying a chicken is not a chicken...only what we call it. And that all religions (and science too) are not reality but an attempt to describe it (pointing to it). In that context, none of them are the absolute truth and are instead "re-presentations". But this is not to say they don't have value. Science has opened our eyes and given us incredible technologies to open our eyes even further but is not the end-all, be-all answer. Regarding religion, I personally feel there are certain aspects of it that act as a sort of heavy ball and chain that cultures are shackled with and it needs to be cut free while keeping what is still applicable. But (speaking generally) the institution of religion is fighting this out of fear of losing authority and credibility.

And I also wish to add that a few posts above mention the concept of self-organization. This is what the book I mentioned by Per Bak is discussing using a variety of contexts and models...one being piles of grains of sand.

Today I received my new copy of "The Day the Universe Changed" and watched a bit of the first episode before signing on. James Burke makes a great statement within the first few minutes; stating, "You see what your knowledge tells you you are seeing." And (my words) as new knowledge comes available, your view (and the universe as you experience it) changes along with it. On the cover of the DVD case there's a description of the last episode where the philosophical question is asked, "If each truth is valid in its time, then is knowledge itself only what we make of it?"

Food for thought.

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RE: Pope Says God is Behind the Big Bang - 1/21/2011 3:40:05 PM   
tazzygirl


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quote:

But (speaking generally) the institution of religion is fighting this out of fear of losing authority and credibility.


Most fights are born out of fear.

What is it that the atheists fear?

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

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RE: Pope Says God is Behind the Big Bang - 1/21/2011 4:30:41 PM   
PeonForHer


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

quote:

It would be a case of us imposing our pre-existing terms and values on an altogether different world. Generally, that’s not seen as a recommended route to understanding.

quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle
If you look, you can see the principle of self organisation at work everywhere.

Ouch.  Not sure that those two statements go well together!



I can't say I am very clear about what you are alluding to here.



Tweakabelle,

Sorry that I wasn't clearer, myself.  I'm not making a point with which you're unfamiliar, evidently.  It's just this:

While many of us are brought up having been imbued with theism, pretty much all humans are brought up to organise their view of the world.  That's just what humans do.  So, in light of that, I think there'd be a very marked tendency for humans, as a whole, to 'impose the terms and values' (to use your words) of this organisational tendency of humans where there isn't appropriate.  Furthermore, humans have a tendency to think that where anything is apparently well organised, it must have been well organised by an intelligence - not unlike humans themselves. We're too easily prone to anthropomorphising that 'organisational-intelligence', I think.

So I'm talking about massive projection, in short.  Re this conclusion: I admitted earlier that I have trouble accepting that the universe is dis-organised.  I meant that literally - it is my trouble to overcome, if I ever could. 

But, I also take your earlier argument that (if I interpret it rightly) 'notion X is meaningless except in relation to notion not-X' - then, it's too easy a trap to fall into just to say, blithely, 'Right.  There's no organisation in the universe'.  The ideas of 'organisation' and 'not-organisation' are flip sides of the same coin and that coin may not buy us a view of the universe that's even remotely correct. 

A common conclusion flowing from this kind of thinking is that the only practical, logical conclusion is one of agnosticism.  I don't feel that even that works for me.  I think there are likely to be hidden frameworks behind even the most postmodern and deconstructionist sorts of thinking.  Cultivating an open mind is where I'm at - and even that may be wrong!  



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RE: Pope Says God is Behind the Big Bang - 1/21/2011 4:51:05 PM   
BenevolentM


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

What is it that the atheists fear?


They fear being wrong.

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RE: Pope Says God is Behind the Big Bang - 1/21/2011 5:13:36 PM   
anthrosub


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

quote:

But (speaking generally) the institution of religion is fighting this out of fear of losing authority and credibility.


Most fights are born out of fear.

What is it that the atheists fear?


I have no idea. I don't follow atheist arguments enough to be able to talk about them with any substance.

_____________________________

"It is easier to fool people than it is to convince them they have been fooled." - Mark Twain

"I am not young enough to know everything." - Oscar Wilde

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RE: Pope Says God is Behind the Big Bang - 1/21/2011 5:15:03 PM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline 		But you do follow religious arguments enough to speak with substance about those.

Interesting for someone to claim to know so much, yet later admit to limited knowledge.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

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Profile   Post #: 270
RE: Pope Says God is Behind the Big Bang - 1/21/2011 8:08:49 PM   
eihwaz


Posts: 367
Joined: 10/6/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle
It would be a case of us imposing our pre-existing terms and values on an altogether different world. Generally, that’s not seen as a recommended route to understanding.

However,  to start investigating this other world, we need to start from some frame of reference, which will inevitably be one accessible to us.  Best to proceed, then, with self-awareness, an open mind, and a healthy skepticism, viewing our own frame of reference as a means of evolving a series of working hypotheses about this different world.

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RE: Pope Says God is Behind the Big Bang - 1/21/2011 8:29:05 PM   
tweakabelle


Posts: 7522
Joined: 10/16/2007
From: Sydney Australia
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

quote:

It would be a case of us imposing our pre-existing terms and values on an altogether different world. Generally, that’s not seen as a recommended route to understanding.

quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle
If you look, you can see the principle of self organisation at work everywhere.

Ouch.  Not sure that those two statements go well together!



I can't say I am very clear about what you are alluding to here.



Tweakabelle,

Sorry that I wasn't clearer, myself.  I'm not making a point with which you're unfamiliar, evidently.  It's just this:

While many of us are brought up having been imbued with theism, pretty much all humans are brought up to organise their view of the world.  That's just what humans do.  So, in light of that, I think there'd be a very marked tendency for humans, as a whole, to 'impose the terms and values' (to use your words) of this organisational tendency of humans where there isn't appropriate.  Furthermore, humans have a tendency to think that where anything is apparently well organised, it must have been well organised by an intelligence - not unlike humans themselves. We're too easily prone to anthropomorphising that 'organisational-intelligence', I think.

So I'm talking about massive projection, in short.  Re this conclusion: I admitted earlier that I have trouble accepting that the universe is dis-organised.  I meant that literally - it is my trouble to overcome, if I ever could. 

But, I also take your earlier argument that (if I interpret it rightly) 'notion X is meaningless except in relation to notion not-X' - then, it's too easy a trap to fall into just to say, blithely, 'Right.  There's no organisation in the universe'.  The ideas of 'organisation' and 'not-organisation' are flip sides of the same coin and that coin may not buy us a view of the universe that's even remotely correct. 

A common conclusion flowing from this kind of thinking is that the only practical, logical conclusion is one of agnosticism.  I don't feel that even that works for me.  I think there are likely to be hidden frameworks behind even the most postmodern and deconstructionist sorts of thinking.  Cultivating an open mind is where I'm at - and even that may be wrong!  



Your post made a lot of sense to me.

Yes we are limited in our ways of thinking, of seeing and saying things and we do tend to impose our terms and values on things, especially that outside of our immediate experience. Anthropomorphising is a human invention, monopoly and speciality.

It may not be possible to escape these limitations completely. But we can be aware of and try to minimise their effects. Wholisitic approaches, rejection of ideology and dogma, trying to understand things in their context, having multiple frameworks of understanding and interpretation, and avoiding totalising things are some ways to help counter negative tendencies. No doubt, there are many many more.

For me agnosticism is a convenient label that is shorthand for : I'm yet to be convinced these questions are answerable. That view becomes more negative if we are restricted to language and reason in our enquiry. This echoes Kirata's observation that: "no conceptualization, theistic or otherwise, is adquate to the task of communicating that understanding, and that a rigid dependence on the letter of texts misses the point".

Yet I still feel that these questions deserve asking and consideration. And I can't eliminate the possibility that there are other routes to awareness or understanding. Nietzsche's response to these questions was to ask; Who is asking? If nothing else, this enquiry reveals a lot about humans that I find fascinating.

And I cannot agree enough that an open mind is the key to a rewarding investigation.

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RE: Pope Says God is Behind the Big Bang - 1/21/2011 8:42:58 PM   
PeonForHer


Posts: 19612
Joined: 9/27/2008
Status: offline 		I guess, for me, and right at the moment, I can't rid myself of a certain image - prompted by the title of this thread itself.  This is of my little mind, trying to fly off to a point at a distance from the universe, so that I can look at it properly.  Then, that little human mind trying to fly back billions of years in time, to watch the Big Bang.  Then, understanding what it's seeing.

I mean, arrogant much, eh? 

All's said and done: for me, the bulk of the proof of the pudding will be in the eating.  When I've finally checked out, I'll try to get a decent broadband connection from 'Upstairs', come on this board, and tell everyone what's really going on.  With properly referenced sources. ;-)

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RE: Pope Says God is Behind the Big Bang - 1/21/2011 8:43:47 PM   
eihwaz


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quote:

ORIGINAL: anthrosub
"You see what your knowledge tells you you are seeing."

Quite so.  Also, what you can know is determined by the questions you can ask.  And the questions you can ask are determined by the metaphors you have available.

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RE: Pope Says God is Behind the Big Bang - 1/21/2011 9:06:32 PM   
tweakabelle


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quote:

ORIGINAL: eihwaz

quote:

ORIGINAL: anthrosub
"You see what your knowledge tells you you are seeing."

Quite so.  Also, what you can know is determined by the questions you can ask.  And the questions you can ask are determined by the metaphors you have available.



Would you agree that the questions we can ask can derive from our needs and desires too?


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RE: Pope Says God is Behind the Big Bang - 1/21/2011 9:23:00 PM   
eihwaz


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle
quote:

ORIGINAL: eihwaz
quote:

ORIGINAL: anthrosub
"You see what your knowledge tells you you are seeing."

Quite so.  Also, what you can know is determined by the questions you can ask.  And the questions you can ask are determined by the metaphors you have available.

Would you agree that the questions we can ask can derive from our needs and desires too?

Absolutely, yes.  And from many other elements of our individual and collective universes, too.

I should have been clearer in my response that I was referring to scientific questions.

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RE: Pope Says God is Behind the Big Bang - 1/21/2011 9:26:02 PM   
willbeurdaddy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

quote:

But (speaking generally) the institution of religion is fighting this out of fear of losing authority and credibility.


Most fights are born out of fear.

What is it that the atheists fear?


The mess that theists make of the world.

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RE: Pope Says God is Behind the Big Bang - 1/21/2011 9:27:05 PM   
GotSteel


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl
What you see as attacks is us calling into question is his ability, as a scientist, to remain objective and his bias towards certain western religions.

While that certainly would be a personal attack, it can be a valid one. Sam Harris is doing research and questioning his objectivity in regards to his research on religion considering his view on the subject is a valid question to raise and a reasonable conversation to have. But that's not what's happening here, that sort of intellectually honest critical discussion is fundamentally different from name calling and lying about it. I mean, you've gone to a place in this thread which you don't even consider valid.


I'm all for having discussions where we can be critical of everything, where no position is held beyond question. What I'm being critical of is that far to often we don't have those conversations, the name calling and lies shut them down.



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RE: Pope Says God is Behind the Big Bang - 1/21/2011 9:52:58 PM   
eihwaz


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata
quote:

ORIGINAL: anthrosub
I've read a bit on the theory of "order out of chaos" and find it compelling... if you go into it, one detail at a time, you can see how they manifest themselves as a natural consequence of interacting forces with other parts of the whole.

If the interactions follow in a fashion ordered by physical laws, where then is the hypothetical initial chaos?

In the indeterminate behavior of the constituents.  Non-linear dynamics (aka chaos theory) cites many examples.  Quantum mechanics also posits non-deterministic behaviors.

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RE: Pope Says God is Behind the Big Bang - 1/21/2011 9:56:24 PM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl
What you see as attacks is us calling into question is his ability, as a scientist, to remain objective and his bias towards certain western religions.

While that certainly would be a personal attack, it can be a valid one. Sam Harris is doing research and questioning his objectivity in regards to his research on religion considering his view on the subject is a valid question to raise and a reasonable conversation to have. But that's not what's happening here, that sort of intellectually honest critical discussion is fundamentally different from name calling and lying about it. I mean, you've gone to a place in this thread which you don't even consider valid.


I'm all for having discussions where we can be critical of everything, where no position is held beyond question. What I'm being critical of is that far to often we don't have those conversations, the name calling and lies shut them down.





In reference to the bolded part... that is your opinion. One i dont happen to agree with. And, for that, you called me a liar. Interesting.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to GotSteel)
Profile   Post #: 280
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