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RE: Pope Says God is Behind the Big Bang - 2/19/2011 8:06:42 PM   
GotSteel


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quote:

ORIGINAL: eihwaz
To me: Faith doesn't entail certainty.  It's more of a daily working hypothesis. 


Wouldn't that put it in the theory category?

Sort of like a conspiracy theory if you will.

< Message edited by GotSteel -- 2/19/2011 8:07:25 PM >

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RE: Pope Says God is Behind the Big Bang - 2/19/2011 11:43:36 PM   
tweakabelle


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quote:

ORIGINAL: eihwaz

quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle
quote:

ORIGINAL: eihwaz
[...] Agree entirely that doubt is essential for a humane humanity.  The most robust faith is that conditioned by doubt.

I am having difficulty getting my head around your last sentence. To me, the existence of doubt seems to exclude the possibility of faith. At a minimum, faith and doubt make uneasy bedfellows or so it seems to me.

Is there another way of looking at this point?

To me: Faith doesn't entail certainty.  It's more of a daily working hypothesis.  Doubt opens the space for faith to grow and change.  A faith not open to challenge is likely to be one based on fear.  It's analogous to science, which predicated on falsifiable hypotheses.  By "faith" in this instance I mean a personal belief in the Divine, not adherence to a particular religion.  Let me know if you want more clarification.




I think I have a glimmer of it now. It seems like a brave choice to treat doubt and faith in that way, and let me add, a commendable one too. I get how it leads you to confirmation of your faith. Though I should add the same evidence would probably produce quite a different result in me! :)

Your courage in taking the challenging alternative makes your faith insulated from some of the challenges posed by the argument here I suspect.

Tho I wonder, if it is the case that your God is an absolute one, is anything less than an absolute faith sufficient?

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RE: Pope Says God is Behind the Big Bang - 2/22/2011 4:55:57 PM   
eihwaz


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle
quote:

ORIGINAL: eihwaz
quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle
quote:

ORIGINAL: eihwaz
[...] Agree entirely that doubt is essential for a humane humanity.  The most robust faith is that conditioned by doubt.

To me, the existence of doubt seems to exclude the possibility of faith. At a minimum, faith and doubt make uneasy bedfellows or so it seems to me...

To me: Faith doesn't entail certainty.  It's more of a daily working hypothesis.  Doubt opens the space for faith to grow and change.  A faith not open to challenge is likely to be one based on fear.  It's analogous to science, which [is] predicated on falsifiable hypotheses.  By "faith" in this instance I mean a personal belief in the Divine, not adherence to a particular religion...

[...]
Tho I wonder, if it is the case that your God is an absolute one, is anything less than an absolute faith sufficient?

God, being the supreme being, omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent, and so on is (or would be), by definition, absolute, but that's a metaphysical detail.  Any notion I have of "God" -- whether as a guy-in-the-sky or the natural world or the force or as something "out there" -- is bound to be limited and an anthropocentric artifact -- quite non-absolute; that's an inescapable part of the human condition.  Moreover, my faith is more of a practice and a path, involving growth and change, rather than a static belief.

quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle
Your courage in taking the challenging alternative makes your faith insulated from some of the challenges posed by the argument here I suspect.

Thanks much for the compliment!

To which challenges do you refer?


quote:

ORIGINAL Sensei Sevan Ross
... Great Faith and Great Doubt are two ends of a spiritual walking stick.  We grip one end  with the grasp given to us by our Great Determination.  We poke into the underbrush in the dark on our spiritual journey.  This act is real spiritual practice -- gripping the Faith end and poking ahead with the Doubt end of the stick.


quote:

Miguel de Unamuno
Faith which does not doubt is dead faith.


quote:

Paul Tillich
Doubt isn't the opposite of faith; it is an element of faith.


quote:

Rainer Maria Rilke
Be patient toward all that is unsolved in your heart.  And try to love the questions themselves.


quote:

Chinese proverb
With great doubts come great understanding; with little doubts come little understanding.


quote:

French proverb
Only the one who knows nothing doubts nothing.


quote:

C.S. Lewis
If ours is an examined faith, we should be unafraid to doubt.  If doubt is eventually justified, we were believing what clearly was not worth believing.  But if doubt is answered, our faith has grown stronger.






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RE: Pope Says God is Behind the Big Bang - 2/24/2011 9:44:38 PM   
tweakabelle


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quote:

ORIGINAL: eihwaz

Moreover, my faith is more of a practice and a path, involving growth and change, rather than a static belief.


This sounds far more interesting to me. I find the idea of a faith without a theology is intriguing. Choosing change and dynamism over dogma and stasis appeals to me too.

Could you please elaborate on how this works out for you? I hope you'll appreciate that your approach is a new one for me and I would much prefer to hear it fleshed out by a practicioner than have to speculate about its contents.


< Message edited by tweakabelle -- 2/24/2011 9:47:19 PM >


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RE: Pope Says God is Behind the Big Bang - 2/24/2011 10:02:28 PM   
NihilusZero


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quote:

ORIGINAL: eihwaz

God, being the supreme being, omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent, and so on is (or would be), by definition, absolute, but that's a metaphysical detail.  Any notion I have of "God" -- whether as a guy-in-the-sky or the natural world or the force or as something "out there" -- is bound to be limited and an anthropocentric artifact

Not when human imagination is unbounded. The first four descriptors you used here are examples of inapplicable, imagined concepts that are nebulous enough to apply to any metaphysical entity which we can then support with special pleading.

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RE: Pope Says God is Behind the Big Bang - 2/24/2011 10:06:19 PM   
NihilusZero


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For any entity or issue for which psychological solace/comfort/preference/enjoyment is not the primary priority, faith is superfluous and misguiding.

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I know they're all insane
I know it's all in vain
I know that I'm to blame."
~Siouxsie & the Banshees


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RE: Pope Says God is Behind the Big Bang - 2/24/2011 10:11:21 PM   
tazzygirl


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RE: Pope Says God is Behind the Big Bang - 2/25/2011 4:49:15 PM   
GotSteel


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quote:

ORIGINAL: NihilusZero
For any entity or issue for which psychological solace/comfort/preference/enjoyment is not the primary priority, faith is superfluous and misguiding.

That's a really good point.

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