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A rant about deliberately fuzzy math. - 1/8/2011 5:15:48 PM   
DarkSteven


Posts: 28072
Joined: 5/2/2008
Status: offline 		Let's hypothesize that I come up with a bill that will cost $5 billion and provide well defined benefits.  You'd expect a bunch of fiscal conservatives to decry the $5 bil price tag, and a bunch of others to talk up the benefits of the bill.  Fair enough.

Now, let's say that I instead come up with a bill that requires forty PhDs to slog through and analyze, and that they all would disagree.  What would the the consequences?

The fiscal conservatives would claim that I have created a bill that would single handedly quadruple the national debt and that it would provide minimal benefits at best.  The proponents would likewise claim minimal impact on the debt and billions of golden benefits.

This is what we're seeing.  Bills that are poorly defined.  That allows talking heads to exaggerate their claims.

We are seeing fuzzier bills, greatly expanded spin machines, spinmeisters becoming more powerful than the people who actually get work DONE, and an increasingly angrier public.  The public feels - rightly - more manipulated and that the truth is becoming less and less relevant.

I just needed to get that off my chest.  I'm an engineer, and accuracy and ethics are paramount.  This brave new world, in which things are kept as murky and ill-defined as possible, is not to my liking.


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The small-breasted ones want larger breasts. The large-breasted ones want smaller ones. The straight-haired ones curl their hair, and the curly-haired ones straighten theirs...

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RE: A rant about deliberately fuzzy math. - 1/8/2011 5:41:54 PM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline 		You're an engineer and you don't understand the concept that sometimes it is impossible to define or measure all the variables of something before hand?

(in reply to DarkSteven)
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RE: A rant about deliberately fuzzy math. - 1/8/2011 6:01:25 PM   
MrRodgers


Posts: 10542
Joined: 7/30/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

You're an engineer and you don't understand the concept that sometimes it is impossible to define or measure all the variables of something before hand?

He's hardly talking about variables. I am sure his complaint and it is very valid complaint is that it is possible to differ about the financial or fiscal assumptions made in certain bills and lately (maybe 10 yrs.or more) it is as if these bills are deliberately written very fiscally vague for that very purpose.

When politicians write bills they make claims or complaints claiming their validity is based the very vagueness or ambiguity built in. This simply feeds partisan rant or praise and the function is where we are headed anyway, namely...we cannot believe anything the govt. tells us anymore, no matter what party is in power and not all of the PHD's could ever truly sort out the mathematical truth.

Furthermore, if anyone, engineer or not cannot define or measure any variable, then [it] is inconsequential...irrelevant.

< Message edited by MrRodgers -- 1/8/2011 6:10:09 PM >

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RE: A rant about deliberately fuzzy math. - 1/8/2011 7:06:42 PM   
DarkSteven


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

You're an engineer and you don't understand the concept that sometimes it is impossible to define or measure all the variables of something before hand?


No, I'm claiming that politicians are deliberately making bills squishy with as much ambiguity as possible, and then exploiting that ambiguity for their own ends, to the detriment of the people and the political process itself.


_____________________________

"You women....

The small-breasted ones want larger breasts. The large-breasted ones want smaller ones. The straight-haired ones curl their hair, and the curly-haired ones straighten theirs...

Quit fretting. We men love you."

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RE: A rant about deliberately fuzzy math. - 1/8/2011 7:49:19 PM   
KenDckey


Posts: 4121
Joined: 5/31/2006
Status: offline 		Steven I agree with you.   If they would pass a bill that people would understand then they probably wouldn't pass because the people would be in an uproar.  I wish we would pass a law that said that all laws had to be written in "plain language" that is understandable by all.

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RE: A rant about deliberately fuzzy math. - 1/8/2011 8:51:39 PM   
TreasureKY


Posts: 3032
Joined: 4/10/2007
From: Kentucky
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: KenDckey

I wish we would pass a law that said that all laws had to be written in "plain language" that is understandable by all.


lol... It's already been done.

Plain Writing Act of 2010

Now didn't that work really well? 

Edited to Add:  The website above has links to Executive Orders signed by President Clinton.  Here is a link directly to a pdf version of the Plain Writing Act of 2010 signed by President Obama.


< Message edited by TreasureKY -- 1/8/2011 9:01:16 PM >

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RE: A rant about deliberately fuzzy math. - 1/8/2011 9:02:08 PM   
KenDckey


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Status: offline 		Hey Treasure   It doesn't look like it applies to congress tho.   Only the Executive Branch.

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RE: A rant about deliberately fuzzy math. - 1/8/2011 9:07:30 PM   
TreasureKY


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Joined: 4/10/2007
From: Kentucky
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: KenDckey

Hey Treasure   It doesn't look like it applies to congress tho.   Only the Executive Branch.


Figures.  Though the agencies are required to report to Congress on their plans and compliance. 

SEC. 5. REPORTS TO CONGRESS.
(a) INITIAL REPORT.—Not later than 9 months after the date
of enactment of this Act, the head of each agency shall publish
on the plain writing section of the agency’s website a report that
describes the agency plan for compliance with the requirements
of this Act.
(b) ANNUAL COMPLIANCE REPORT.—Not later than 18 months
after the date of enactment of this Act, and annually thereafter,
the head of each agency shall publish on the plain writing section
of the agency’s website a report on agency compliance with the
requirements of this Act.

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RE: A rant about deliberately fuzzy math. - 1/8/2011 10:02:28 PM   
DMFParadox


Posts: 1405
Joined: 9/11/2007
Status: offline 		I didn't vote for obama, but I love him for signing this.

...Now let's have a debate on the meaning of "plain language." Good luck, folks.

I don't think plain language is enough, though. Accuracy counts. And it starts before the laws are made. I posted about this here:
http://www.collarchat.com/m_3456662/tm.htm


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RE: A rant about deliberately fuzzy math. - 1/9/2011 12:49:08 AM   
Termyn8or


Posts: 18681
Joined: 11/12/2005
Status: offline 		Fuzzy everything DS. I highly recommend you watch a movie called "The Palermo Connection". Fiction actually, but it illustrates a very pervasive and insidious factor in manipulating things.

Statistics undergo a similar metamophosis before being presented.

T

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RE: A rant about deliberately fuzzy math. - 1/9/2011 2:51:45 AM   
Real0ne


Posts: 21189
Joined: 10/25/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DarkSteven

Let's hypothesize that I come up with a bill that will cost $5 billion and provide well defined benefits.  You'd expect a bunch of fiscal conservatives to decry the $5 bil price tag, and a bunch of others to talk up the benefits of the bill.  Fair enough.


well if I am the beneficiary I want to know who the trustee is that will pay the bills that all I give a damn about!

get it? :D


_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

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RE: A rant about deliberately fuzzy math. - 1/9/2011 9:08:53 AM   
Termyn8or


Posts: 18681
Joined: 11/12/2005
Status: offline 		The US govern-mint ?

T

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RE: A rant about deliberately fuzzy math. - 1/9/2011 9:20:53 AM   
gungadin09


Posts: 3232
Joined: 3/19/2010
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DarkSteven

We are seeing fuzzier bills, greatly expanded spin machines, spinmeisters becoming more powerful than the people who actually get work DONE, and an increasingly angrier public.  The public feels - rightly - more manipulated and that the truth is becoming less and less relevant.

I just needed to get that off my chest.  I'm an engineer, and accuracy and ethics are paramount.  This brave new world, in which things are kept as murky and ill-defined as possible, is not to my liking.



Steven, sometimes You remind me of myself.

pam

(in reply to DarkSteven)
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RE: A rant about deliberately fuzzy math. - 1/9/2011 10:25:54 AM   
DarkSteven


Posts: 28072
Joined: 5/2/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: gungadin09

Steven, sometimes You remind me of myself.

pam


You're shorter and purtier.  And you're the one that doesn't live in Colorado.


_____________________________

"You women....

The small-breasted ones want larger breasts. The large-breasted ones want smaller ones. The straight-haired ones curl their hair, and the curly-haired ones straighten theirs...

Quit fretting. We men love you."

(in reply to gungadin09)
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RE: A rant about deliberately fuzzy math. - 1/9/2011 10:40:56 AM   
peacefulplace


Posts: 157
Joined: 8/22/2010
Status: offline 		Call me crazy (and you wouldn't be the first--har, har, har), but this seems to be something inherent in American thinking right now. There are no absolutes. Nothing can be proven. Question everything, even if there is rational evidence for it (global warming, anyone? Evolution?). I'm sure it's enough to make an engineer's head explode. Or any rational person's, for that matter. Regardless of the language used, until Americans begin thinking clearly instead of blindly following ideology, this "fuzzy math" is here to stay in this brave new world.

_____________________________

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One thing is clear to me: We, as human beings, must be willing to accept people who are different from ourselves.
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(in reply to DarkSteven)
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RE: A rant about deliberately fuzzy math. - 1/9/2011 11:13:50 AM   
blacksword404


Posts: 2068
Joined: 1/4/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DMFParadox

I didn't vote for obama, but I love him for signing this.

...Now let's have a debate on the meaning of "plain language." Good luck, folks.



Let's define it as language that is readily understandable by 95% of people with a reading level between 7th and 12th grade. That would cover most adults.

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RE: A rant about deliberately fuzzy math. - 1/9/2011 8:37:47 PM   
gungadin09


Posts: 3232
Joined: 3/19/2010
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DarkSteven

quote:

ORIGINAL: gungadin09

Steven, sometimes You remind me of myself.

pam


You're shorter and purtier.  And you're the one that doesn't live in Colorado.



And my titties are bigger.

pam

(in reply to DarkSteven)
Profile   Post #: 17
RE: A rant about deliberately fuzzy math. - 1/9/2011 8:45:46 PM   
BenevolentM


Posts: 3394
Joined: 11/15/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DarkSteven

I'm an engineer, and accuracy and ethics are paramount.



Bravo! I can relate fully since my fantasy involves engineering. I want some beautiful slender smart and youthful babes working on a geeky engineering problem as a team in say an engineering competition such as who can come up with the best idea for a space elevator. Maybe some blond German babes who understand the need for accuracy, obedience, and superiority.

Moving back to the topic proper. I see no reason why engineering principles cannot be applied to public policy.

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RE: A rant about deliberately fuzzy math. - 1/9/2011 10:07:35 PM   
Real0ne


Posts: 21189
Joined: 10/25/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

You're an engineer and you don't understand the concept that sometimes it is impossible to define or measure all the variables of something before hand?


then they aint qualified for the job simple as that


_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 19
RE: A rant about deliberately fuzzy math. - 1/9/2011 10:33:35 PM   
Termyn8or


Posts: 18681
Joined: 11/12/2005
Status: offline 		Don't get quite how you mean that. Do you mean that engineers would not be as good at running this country into the gound ?

And one other thing, y'all pooh poohed my thread about us paralelling Rome. OK so it ain't the same. OK it is completely different, and even assuming that there was little or nothing in common at the end of all fallen civlizations, I assert this :

I bet my left nut that fallen civilizations had one thing in common. They didn't see it coming. If they did they were either nuts, didn't care, or they would not have fallen.

Argue that.

T

(in reply to Real0ne)
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