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Is this one of the reasons why Palestinians..... - 2/22/2011 8:26:27 PM

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From: Tamaris
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I was wondering whilst watching a tv debate between an American and an Israeli, was the accent used by the Israeli one of the reasons why Palestinians, Muslims etc dislike Americans, as the Isreali, in this case Dr Ranaan Gissin Former Advisor to Ariel Sharon, is clearly American, or has at least lived in America long enough to pick up an unmistakable accent and manner. If this is so, what are Palestinians actually seeing, Americans, or a very clear American/Isreali blur ?

Crosstalk with Peter Lavelle

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RE: Is this one of the reasons why Palestinians..... - 2/22/2011 8:33:49 PM

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Aneirin, matey, you have gone and done it now.
Stirring the pot with a big spoon are you?
lol
*On topic---> well you know Aneirin, Israel/America or America/Israel, we tend to be as one.
Fairly hard for America to separate itself from Israel matey, we tend to be joined at the hip {as far as MANY in both countries are concerned} or are we one country?
Isn't Israel the 51st state?

I predict this thread will go 35 pages.

< Message edited by Marini -- 2/22/2011 8:40:29 PM >

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RE: Is this one of the reasons why Palestinians..... - 2/22/2011 8:45:23 PM

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I wondered for a few days if I should ask this question bearing in mind some of the mentalities that reside here, but my question is a genuine question, for I am asking it because being European, I don't know, I am not American, but I do wish to know, as it is in my mind if I don't know, I ask, as assumption is the mother of all fuck ups.

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RE: Is this one of the reasons why Palestinians..... - 2/23/2011 2:48:20 AM

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A lot of Israelis come from America. So what? Are American Jews not allowed to want to return to their ancestral home? Are they not allowed to support Israel if they don't choose to emigrate?

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RE: Is this one of the reasons why Palestinians..... - 2/23/2011 4:24:30 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

A lot of Israelis come from America. So what? Are American Jews not allowed to want to return to their ancestral home? Are they not allowed to support Israel if they don't choose to emigrate?

Exactly. It isnt as if we havent seen many Arabs talking English/American during recent unrest.

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RE: Is this one of the reasons why Palestinians..... - 2/23/2011 4:25:51 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

A lot of Israelis come from America. So what? Are American Jews not allowed to want to return to their ancestral home? Are they not allowed to support Israel if they don't choose to emigrate?

What they forget is that THIS state of Israel (3rd in history) is made up of entirely of people that emmigrated their since about 1948. There are many of those millions...who came from the US. Some stay, some don't.

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RE: Is this one of the reasons why Palestinians..... - 2/23/2011 2:39:42 PM

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You have a strange concept of an "American accent and manner". He doesnt have either, and his bio substantiates that other than getting a PhD from Syracuse the vast majority of his life has been spent in Israel.

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RE: Is this one of the reasons why Palestinians..... - 2/23/2011 3:51:34 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

A lot of Israelis come from America. So what? Are American Jews not allowed to want to return to their ancestral home? Are they not allowed to support Israel if they don't choose to emigrate?

What they forget is that THIS state of Israel (3rd in history) is made up of entirely of people that emmigrated their since about 1948. There are many of those millions...who came from the US. Some stay, some don't.

No one is forgetting it. It simply isn't true. a quick look at wikipedia or any demographic source will give you the true picture.

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RE: Is this one of the reasons why Palestinians..... - 2/23/2011 5:33:26 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy

You have a strange concept of an "American accent and manner". He doesnt have either, and his bio substantiates that other than getting a PhD from Syracuse the vast majority of his life has been spent in Israel.

Well, I don't know about you, but our, many of us at least's education as to what Americans are like comes from the movies, and yeah, we know movies tend to exaggerate mannerisms, but in Dr Gissin's situation, to me on hearing his voice, he came across what I understood to be with a New York mannerism, i.e. American.

Now, I am from the UK, we don't get to meet many Americans, but if I see American in someone who others say is not, all I can ask, is what do others see, perhaps others in lands of conflict ?

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RE: Is this one of the reasons why Palestinians..... - 2/23/2011 6:56:30 PM

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Aneirin, I was wrong about this thread going 35 pages.
The fact, that this thread has NOT had many responses, gives you your answer matey.

I did a little google search, and found this:

Roots of the US/Israel Relationships

It seems very credible and is very interesting.
Keep asking the tough thought provoking questions, I like "let's really get down in it" questions, thoughts, and opinions.

Make my day, matey.

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Nelson Mandela
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NOT a Republican/Moderate and free agent

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RE: Is this one of the reasons why Palestinians..... - 2/23/2011 7:29:04 PM

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And from Wikipedia: Israel-United States Relations

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RE: Is this one of the reasons why Palestinians..... - 2/23/2011 7:31:52 PM

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I think most people in the world understand which way America would butter their bread, if/when it ever comes down to "it".

< Message edited by Marini -- 2/23/2011 7:37:25 PM >

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As always, To EACH their Own.
"And as we let our own light shine, we unconsciously give other people permission to do the same. "
Nelson Mandela
Life-long Democrat, not happy at all with Democratic Party.
NOT a Republican/Moderate and free agent

(in reply to eihwaz)

RE: Is this one of the reasons why Palestinians..... - 2/23/2011 9:00:42 PM

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While we are on the subject some one might like to explain to me what the US gets from its massive subsidisation of Israel.

“Since the October War in 1973, Washington has provided Israel with a level of support dwarfing the amounts provided to any other state. It has been the largest annual recipient of direct U.S. economic and military assistance since 1976 and the largest total recipient since World War ll. Total direct U.S. aid to Israel amounts to well over $140 billion in 2003 dollars. Israel receives about $3 billion in direct foreign assistance each year, which is roughly one-fifth of America's entire foreign aid budget. In per capita terms, the United States gives each Israeli a direct subsidy worth about $500 per year. This largesse is especially striking when one realizes that Israel is now a wealthy industrial state with a per capita income roughly equal to South Korea or Spain.”

- John J. Mearsheimer and Stephen M. Walt
"The Israel Lobby and U.S. Foreign Policy"

As far as I can tell the US gets zilch in return (unless one counts the use of a proxy army, embarrassment and constant problems)

People seeking a reason for Palestinian/Arab/Muslim antipathy towards the US will find a large part of the answer in this subsidy. Palestinians feel the US finances the endless brutality Israel inflicts upon them, supports Israel politically and diplomatically and quite often manufactures the arms/armaments used to kill them.

< Message edited by tweakabelle -- 2/23/2011 9:05:00 PM >

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RE: Is this one of the reasons why Palestinians..... - 2/23/2011 9:10:23 PM

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America fiances Hamas and Hezbolah?

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RE: Is this one of the reasons why Palestinians..... - 2/24/2011 8:23:33 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

While we are on the subject some one might like to explain to me what the US gets from its massive subsidisation of Israel.

I keep asking this question and no one ever offers an answer.

This silence is even more surprising when one considers that the total cost (direct subsidy + indirect costs) of US support for Israel has been estimated at US $ 3 TRILLION.*

I really would like an answer if there is one. So, I am sure, would many American taxpayers

* http://www.ifamericansknew.org/stats/stauffer.html

< Message edited by tweakabelle -- 2/24/2011 8:24:44 PM >

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RE: Is this one of the reasons why Palestinians..... - 2/24/2011 8:44:43 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

While we are on the subject some one might like to explain to me what the US gets from its massive subsidisation of Israel.

I keep asking this question and no one ever offers an answer.

This silence is even more surprising when one considers that the total cost (direct subsidy + indirect costs) of US support for Israel has been estimated at US $ 3 TRILLION.*

I really would like an answer if there is one. So, I am sure, would many American taxpayers

* http://www.ifamericansknew.org/stats/stauffer.html

Its been answered many times, perhaps you just dont like the answer. It gives the US a critical ally and center of influence in the ME.

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RE: Is this one of the reasons why Palestinians..... - 2/24/2011 9:20:54 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy

quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

While we are on the subject some one might like to explain to me what the US gets from its massive subsidisation of Israel.

Its been answered many times, perhaps you just dont like the answer. It gives the US a critical ally and center of influence in the ME.

If the goal is to have a centre of influence, why pick the country loathed by all of the other 30 countries in the region? One without any natural resources in a region brimming with oil?

What kind of diplomatic strategy befriends one country at the cost of alienating its 30 odd neighbours (as we are seeing right now)? Is it worth $3 trillion to make this many enemies?

If I wanted to influence events in the Middle East, I can think of many other more successful, cost effective strategies. So if influence is the goal, the Israeli alliance is a calamity for the US by any standards.

In short, willbe, while I am sure many Americans believe your answer to the correct one, it only makes sense until I start to think about it.

< Message edited by tweakabelle -- 2/24/2011 9:29:09 PM >

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RE: Is this one of the reasons why Palestinians..... - 2/24/2011 10:19:05 PM

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I could give you a biblical answer, but doubt anyone would accept it

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RE: Is this one of the reasons why Palestinians..... - 2/24/2011 10:22:39 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle
While we are on the subject some one might like to explain to me what the US gets from its massive subsidisation of Israel.

I keep asking this question and no one ever offers an answer.

This silence is even more surprising when one considers that the total cost (direct subsidy + indirect costs) of US support for Israel has been estimated at US $ 3 TRILLION.*

I really would like an answer if there is one. So, I am sure, would many American taxpayers

* http://www.ifamericansknew.org/stats/stauffer.html

The figure of three trillion is utter utter utter bullshit. The If Americans Knew website is nototious for using any duplicitous argument to defame Israel, http://www.camera.org/index.asp?x_context=8&x_nameinnews=161&x_article=896 much like this demagogue Tweakabelle who can't leave things after making largely the same points over and over again on threads that should have died a death long long ago, and attacking anyone who disagrees. The article blames Israel for the numerous oil crisis that OPEC introduced to punish the West for its support of Israel. How is that for fairness and balance?

Israel does not get 1/5 of the US foreign budget each year, an assertion Tweakabelle also seems to rely on the aforementioned dubious source. In 2007 Bush gave in excess of 20 Billion, 2.4 billion of that was for Israel. Pro-Palestinians bandy about all sorts of figures, e.g. some say it is five billion per annum. There is additional monies in loan guarantees to buy US weaponry which some pro-Palestinians mix into the pot misleadingly.

US aid to Israel is substantial but it is not the full story as many pro-Palestinians try to make out. What critics of Israel completely ignore is that the US gives more aid combined to Israel’s very cold friends or potential enemies like Egypt. Israel ranks first but in 2004 for example when Israel’s funds greatly increased after declining through the 1990’s (as part of the war on terror), Israel got roughly 2.6 billion while, Egypt got around 2.3 billion and Jordan around half a billion per year. The figures are more or less static although Egypt seems to be getting more money today than it was despite reports to the contrary, re. emergency aid last year. Few also mention that the Palestinian Authority gets around 1 billion per year for the US. The Palestinian’s also get by far the most generous aid packages from the European Union and the UN.

Since the 1970’s US aid to Israel and the middle east increased. Egypt was given a huge chunk of money which was peculiar because in the peace process with Israel it was handed back the large oil fields Israel had helped develop in the Sinai. Israel was given a similar amount of money merely to compensate the economic losses from the oil fields they had by making peace. It was based on a 1979 price for oil production from the fields. In today’s world with a far greater worth on oil Israel would be getting a multiple of this if it hadn’t made peace. Egypt's recognition was more important. The US money did at least help build a very cold peace with Egypt and it allowed Egypt to build the 11th biggest army in the world.

The exact reasons for US support of Israel are complex, and its pointless discussing them as a good deal of supposition is involved. However, its clear the US in part gives a good deal of aid to Israel in order to maintain its influence over the country, e.g. Golda Meir didn’t make a pre-emptive strike during the Yom Kippur War as she feared alienating the United States, which Israel was dependent upon to supply its military. As a result Israel was very nearly destroyed until the US organised airlifts etc., which BTW the article Tweakabelle linked was also critical of - the aid that stopped the annihilation of Israel! The US then stopped Israel destroying the Egyptian military when they had the opportunity. When China came a knocking in the 1990’s the US effectively stopped Israel selling advanced radar systems etc. An arrangement with China could have generated immense sums of money that would probably exceed aid the US gives. Equally when the US wants to play peace Israel has to submit most of the time, one of the few exceptions being Netanyahu's eventual refusal last year

(in reply to tweakabelle)

RE: Is this one of the reasons why Palestinians..... - 2/26/2011 10:52:22 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Anaxagoras

quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle
While we are on the subject some one might like to explain to me what the US gets from its massive subsidisation of Israel.

I keep asking this question and no one ever offers an answer.

This silence is even more surprising when one considers that the total cost (direct subsidy + indirect costs) of US support for Israel has been estimated at US $ 3 TRILLION.*

I really would like an answer if there is one. So, I am sure, would many American taxpayers

* http://www.ifamericansknew.org/stats/stauffer.html

The figure of three trillion is utter utter utter bullshit.
[...]
The exact reasons for US support of Israel are complex, and its pointless discussing them as a good deal of supposition is involved. However, its clear the US in part gives a good deal of aid to Israel in order to maintain its influence over the country

As usual Anax's post contains far too many wild claims and inaccuracies to respond to. So I shall deal with just a few of the more obvious ones.

The $3 trillion figure is an estimate of direct costs - aid, subsidies, discounts and the like - and indirect costs. Indirect costs include such things as lost investment and trading opportunities. If this figure is disputed, people are quite free to offer an alternative figure (with credible sources please!) which they may feel more accurate but sadly this is not done. The figure is explained in detail and referenced at the link. Unless someone produces a more accurate one, it stands as the only credible one. To dismiss the $3 trillion figure, without any analysis or supporting evidence as "utter utter utter bullshit" is itself utter utter utter bullshit.

Stauffer also estimates the number of American jobs lost due to this largesse for Israel. He estimates that the recurring annual cost to the American economy is 275, 000 jobs. With its current unemployment in the US at over 10%, those jobs are dearly needed in the US.

If the reason for US financial support is " to maintain its influence over [Israel]" as Anax argues, then whatever the actual amount, it is a total waste. Money straight down the drain.

Recently, Obama offered the Israelis a US $3 billion bribe to stop expanding the colonies/settlements temporarily so that peace talks could take place. The offer was contemptuously rejected and Israel successfully scuttled the peace talks. Not much use having a proxy army if it doesn't do as it's told is it? So much for influence ......

Obviously, a threat to withdraw all support would have forced the Israelis to see sense. In fact, such a threat could force the Israelis to the negotiating table and to conclude a meaningful peace treaty. It is difficult to see Israel surviving in the style it is accustomed to without Uncle Sam's support.

Of course, none of these figures includes a price for loss of influence elsewhere in the world, the cost of diplomatic protection for a terrorist State or a cost for the anti-Americanism this misguided support for Israel inspires.

How can anyone avoid the conclusion the US is being ripped off wholesale by its 'partner', being taken for the mother of all rides?

Edited to add extra truth!

< Message edited by tweakabelle -- 2/26/2011 11:06:05 PM >

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