Self-harm and masochism

Self-harm and masochism (Full Version)

All Forums >> [Community Discussions] >> General BDSM Discussion

Message

Prinsexx -> Self-harm and masochism (3/8/2011 9:47:04 AM)
A question came to me: I have known a few self-harmers. This mostly takes the form of cutting. Although I have also known a self-harmer who pulled out her hair. A self-harmer who pulled out her eyelashes. And a self-harmer who punched himself in his body and face. All of them express the feelings of relief that this brings. So my question is: what is the connection between self-harm and masochism? Simply because masochism brings a sense of release also.

Missokyst -> RE: Self-harm and masochism (3/8/2011 9:55:26 AM)
Masochism = acceptable outlet in the mind of the kinky majority. Self harm = prevailing thought from the minds of the kinky majority is that they need help, counseling, ect ect. I call it BS. The difference between the two in my mind is that one is dealing with things on their own. The other requires a partner to make themselves feel better about the need.

NihilusZero -> RE: Self-harm and masochism (3/8/2011 9:56:39 AM)
If we look at happiness as a number scale (from -10 being hopelessly melancholy to +10 being ecstatic) I find self-harmers (as have been described here) are using pain as a way to get from a negative number back to 0, rather than to get from 0 to a higher positive number. The effect is essentially the same but we tend to look at things more negatively (this is likely to account for greater guilt with the former actions compared to the latter) if the act wasn't begun from a 0 or positive status, as we view negative numbers as states of compromised mental capacity. Great question.

porcelaine -> RE: Self-harm and masochism (3/8/2011 11:46:27 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Prinsexx So my question is: what is the connection between self-harm and masochism? Simply because masochism brings a sense of release also. Greetings, From my perspective there is no connection and I have never bought into the idea that they are helping themselves. Oftentimes the methods undertaken go far afield from most kink-inspired activities. If a dominant professed his desire to do the same we'd question his sanity and some might posit potential abuse. That's ymmv of course. I have a difficult time finding the positive in self-harm when many are undertaking the activity as an escape from realities that are less than such. It is a coping mechanism in my opinion. While someone can be both masochistic and into self-harm, I don't believe they're processing the former through that aspect of their persona. Namaste, ~porcelaine

Prinsexx -> RE: Self-harm and masochism (3/8/2011 11:59:00 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: NihilusZero If we look at happiness as a number scale (from -10 being hopelessly melancholy to +10 being ecstatic) I find self-harmers (as have been described here) are using pain as a way to get from a negative number back to 0, rather than to get from 0 to a higher positive number. The effect is essentially the same but we tend to look at things more negatively (this is likely to account for greater guilt with the former actions compared to the latter) if the act wasn't begun from a 0 or positive status, as we view negative numbers as states of compromised mental capacity. Great question. And this answer makes sense to me. Thank you.

LillyBoPeep -> RE: Self-harm and masochism (3/8/2011 11:59:09 AM)
for me, i identify as a masochist, but i go out of my way NOT to connect it, in any way, to my old self-harming thing. i had a lot of really negative stuff going on in my head as a kid and, at the time, cutting seemed like such a good idea. like NZ said, it was going from a negative number back to 0, not up to a positive in any way. the thing with it was, sure, i could cut myself, release endorphins, make my skin feel "not so tight," feel the pain/see the blood and know i was alive -- WHATEVER. the reasons for "why" were layered together, sometimes i didn't really know why i was doing it, other than, for a few minutes, i'd drift away and all the hurt would stop. but when i came back, i felt blindingly ashamed, i felt like i'd made myself uglier than i already thought i was. there was no positive spin on it, EVER. masochism was always sexual for me. even though i felt like a nutball (until i found out about BDSM), it wasn't really a negative thing for me, ever. i didn't hate myself because of it, it had just always been there, but i figured nobody needed to know about it anyway. if i engage in S&M, it makes me feel good. it's going from 0 to some fantabulous POSITIVE number. even if it's a cathartic thing, it's still positive. there's no "omigosh i hate myself MORE now!" downswing afterward. they are so totally different for me, originating and ending at totally different places altogether, and honestly, even if there is some connection deep down, i really don't want to know about it. i don't want to link something positive to something negative.

kalikshama -> RE: Self-harm and masochism (3/8/2011 12:04:20 PM)
quote: If we look at happiness as a number scale (from -10 being hopelessly melancholy to +10 being ecstatic) I find self-harmers (as have been described here) are using pain as a way to get from a negative number back to 0, rather than to get from 0 to a higher positive number. I think "The Secretary" did a good job illustrating the difference. It's been a really long time since I read "I Never Promised You a Rose Garden" but I think she was trying to get from a -10 to a 0.

Prinsexx -> RE: Self-harm and masochism (3/8/2011 12:06:37 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: porcelaine quote: ORIGINAL: Prinsexx So my question is: what is the connection between self-harm and masochism? Simply because masochism brings a sense of release also. Greetings, From my perspective there is no connection and I have never bought into the idea that they are helping themselves. Oftentimes the methods undertaken go far afield from most kink-inspired activities. If a dominant professed his desire to do the same we'd question his sanity and some might posit potential abuse. That's ymmv of course. I have a difficult time finding the positive in self-harm when many are undertaking the activity as an escape from realities that are less than such. It is a coping mechanism in my opinion. While someone can be both masochistic and into self-harm, I don't believe they're processing the former through that aspect of their persona. Namaste, ~porcelaine With regard to: ~While someone can be both masochistic and into self-harm,~ that's a complex component of someone's disposition at least looked at purely in behavioural terms. I certainly know of a domme who is a masochist and rather taken to carving herself up in very creative ways. Who is to judge which aspects of pleasure/release this behaviour serves?

LillyBoPeep -> RE: Self-harm and masochism (3/8/2011 12:07:14 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kalikshama I think "The Secretary" did a good job illustrating the difference. when i saw that movie, i really related to that character. =p

ImaginativeWhims -> RE: Self-harm and masochism (3/8/2011 12:12:00 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: NihilusZero If we look at happiness as a number scale (from -10 being hopelessly melancholy to +10 being ecstatic) I find self-harmers (as have been described here) are using pain as a way to get from a negative number back to 0, rather than to get from 0 to a higher positive number. The effect is essentially the same but we tend to look at things more negatively (this is likely to account for greater guilt with the former actions compared to the latter) if the act wasn't begun from a 0 or positive status, as we view negative numbers as states of compromised mental capacity. Great question. Couldn't have said it better. Quoted for emphasis.

Prinsexx -> RE: Self-harm and masochism (3/8/2011 12:12:03 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LillyBoPeep for me, i identify as a masochist, but i go out of my way NOT to connect it, in any way, to my old self-harming thing. i had a lot of really negative stuff going on in my head as a kid and, at the time, cutting seemed like such a good idea. like NZ said, it was going from a negative number back to 0, not up to a positive in any way. the thing with it was, sure, i could cut myself, release endorphins, make my skin feel "not so tight," feel the pain/see the blood and know i was alive -- WHATEVER. the reasons for "why" were layered together, sometimes i didn't really know why i was doing it, other than, for a few minutes, i'd drift away and all the hurt would stop. but when i came back, i felt blindingly ashamed, i felt like i'd made myself uglier than i already thought i was. there was no positive spin on it, EVER. masochism was always sexual for me. even though i felt like a nutball (until i found out about BDSM), it wasn't really a negative thing for me, ever. i didn't hate myself because of it, it had just always been there, but i figured nobody needed to know about it anyway. if i engage in S&M, it makes me feel good. it's going from 0 to some fantabulous POSITIVE number. even if it's a cathartic thing, it's still positive. there's no "omigosh i hate myself MORE now!" downswing afterward. they are so totally different for me, originating and ending at totally different places altogether, and honestly, even if there is some connection deep down, i really don't want to know about it. i don't want to link something positive to something negative. Thank you for responding. I'd like to ask how finding out about bdsm helps? doesn't it just sanctify (in terms of being conformist let's say) a behaviour which would otherwise remain closetted? There is, surely, something that assuages iguilt about acceptable bahaviour?

NihilusZero -> RE: Self-harm and masochism (3/8/2011 12:14:01 PM)
Humorously, we look at drugs in precisely the opposite way: it's socially "okay" to take them if you're in the negative, trying to get better...but it's unacceptable to be at 0 or already in the positives and using them to try and get higher (pun intended). It's all relative. They are the same thing but for our propensities to consider certain things as more indicative of addiction, or need, or desperation (all things that people can still do when in the positive side of the scale). The only useful difference lies in how many people who do it to get from the negatives regret doing it and wish they could stop, versus the amount of people who use it to get into the positives who feel the same way...but it doesn't matter where the person is, really, if they are feeling compelled to do something they genuinely wish they wouldn't. That's the area of concern.

Prinsexx -> RE: Self-harm and masochism (3/8/2011 12:22:48 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: NihilusZero Humorously, we look at drugs in precisely the opposite way: it's socially "okay" to take them if you're in the negative, trying to get better...but it's unacceptable to be at 0 or already in the positives and using them to try and get higher (pun intended). It's all relative. They are the same thing but for our propensities to consider certain things as more indicative of addiction, or need, or desperation (all things that people can still do when in the positive side of the scale). The only useful difference lies in how many people who do it to get from the negatives regret doing it and wish they could stop, versus the amount of people who use it to get into the positives who feel the same way...but it doesn't matter where the person is, really, if they are feeling compelled to do something they genuinely wish they wouldn't. That's the area of concern. Accepted and a very good point abpit the positive and negative stigma of drug taking. Again, except of course where conformity or social positve stigma kicls in. What motivates many to indulge in initially distasteful drug taking (and I am thinking here of the discomfort of teaching oneself to smoke) is the positive social stigma it confers. But here I have to admit to still being a masochist even though dominant. In the past there have been elements of emotional masochism which have been negative and I have revelled in the emotional pain.

SylvereApLeanan -> RE: Self-harm and masochism (3/8/2011 12:23:42 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Prinsexx So my question is: what is the connection between self-harm and masochism? Simply because masochism brings a sense of release also. There's no way to extrapolate this. My best friend's girlfriend is a masochistic domme. She cut herself, pierced herself and I don't know how many other things because she craved the endorphin rush masochism brings. A friend dropped her off on the doorstep of an older, more experienced dominant so the woman could give her the sensations she craved before she did any lasting damage. OTOH, I have trichotillomania (plucking hair/eyelashes) and I am not masochistic in the least. I don't cause myself pain and I don't let anyone else do it either. When I pluck, it's a reaction to stress. Half the time I don't even realize I've done it. It's certainly not for a masochistic high. Since SSRIs such as Wellbutrin help control the symptoms of trichotillomania, I suspect there's a different brain chemistry at work.

Prinsexx -> RE: Self-harm and masochism (3/8/2011 12:30:07 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SylvereApLeanan quote: ORIGINAL: Prinsexx So my question is: what is the connection between self-harm and masochism? Simply because masochism brings a sense of release also. There's no way to extrapolate this. My best friend's girlfriend is a masochistic domme. She cut herself, pierced herself and I don't know how many other things because she craved the endorphin rush masochism brings. A friend dropped her off on the doorstep of an older, more experienced dominant so the woman could give her the sensations she craved before she did any lasting damage. OTOH, I have trichotillomania (plucking hair/eyelashes) and I am not masochistic in the least. I don't cause myself pain and I don't let anyone else do it either. When I pluck, it's a reaction to stress. Half the time I don't even realize I've done it. It's certainly not for a masochistic high. Since SSRIs such as Wellbutrin help control the symptoms of trichotillomania, I suspect there's a different brain chemistry at work. Thank you for this. I think there is, absolutely, different brain chemistry. I'm interested in what we can become aware of though. I think, (in response to your plucking habit) that we all have habits and part of the experience of a habit is that tolerance kicks in and there is little or no awareness of doing it tagged to the original pleasure. But, in my experience anyway, a similar sort of tolerance kicks in with bdsm, and what I used to find edgy I now find dull. This used-to-be-edgy-now-dull tolerance goes along with many aspects of play for me. I'm impulsive and get bored rather easily as well, if that has anything to say about me.

LillyBoPeep -> RE: Self-harm and masochism (3/8/2011 12:32:16 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Prinsexx Thank you for responding. I'd like to ask how finding out about bdsm helps? doesn't it just sanctify (in terms of being conformist let's say) a behaviour which would otherwise remain closetted? There is, surely, something that assuages iguilt about acceptable bahaviour? finding out about BDSM didn't do anything about my negative feelings about self-harming. i came to those conclusions on my own. finding out about kink only helped me not feel like such a nutball for being a bit masochistic. =p i never felt particularly negative about the masochism, just secretive and somewhat embarrassed. i figured my relatives didn't need to know about it, or they'd think i was weird, blah blah blah. =p but deep down, it was always fairly positive. finding out about other kinky people took some of the embarrassment away; i felt like i was part of a group. self-harm was something i felt ambivalent towards -- i hated it, and hated that i did it, but i did it because it made me feel "better." it was a way to force myself to dissociate and step out of my life for a moment. at some point, i started to feel like i couldn't control the urge to do it anymore, and i didn't like that it was starting to control me. all i wanted to do was run away from everything. i've never seen BDSM as a way to redirect the self-harming thing because i don't have that urge to such a degree anymore, and because BDSM is positive to me. self-harming was about self-loathing and escapism, while BDSM is sexy, and fun, and a different way for people to have fun or to show they love each other.

Palliata -> RE: Self-harm and masochism (3/8/2011 12:34:22 PM)
“What happened next, grampa? Weirdly I was just having this discussion with a friend of mine who went from self-harm to kink masochist and now does both. I have met a lot of people who follow this pattern more or less – they start out with self-harm as teens and move towards kink in their early twenties. Part of me wants to say it's the same urge except kink has a better lobby so they go from “damaged people in need of help” to “sexually adventurous” despite fulfilling the same needs in the nearly same way (for those of us into knife play basically the only difference is who's in control of the blade). Another part wants to say that putting the responsibility for pain into the hands of a dominant who is emotionally level at the time of punishment is safer and therefore better, and so it should be seen as a more positive experience. At the end of the day everyone has a right to fuck up their own life their own way, but honestly I'd much rather they put the knife in my hands. My cuts are always so much prettier, after all [;)] quote: ORIGINAL: NihilusZero If we look at happiness as a number scale (from -10 being hopelessly melancholy to +10 being ecstatic) I find self-harmers (as have been described here) are using pain as a way to get from a negative number back to 0, rather than to get from 0 to a higher positive number. The effect is essentially the same but we tend to look at things more negatively (this is likely to account for greater guilt with the former actions compared to the latter) if the act wasn't begun from a 0 or positive status, as we view negative numbers as states of compromised mental capacity. Great question. I'm not sure I agree with the idea that kink masochists necessarily use pain to go from 0 to 10 instead of -10 to 0. I've met plenty for whom it's a release of their emotional tensions the same way self-harm is for that crowd. I've also met self-harm 'enthusiasts' (if you will) that do it for the high, the 0-10 as oppoesd to -10-0. Is either healthy? Maybe, maybe not. To each their own. But I'm not sure the distinction holds up.

Prinsexx -> RE: Self-harm and masochism (3/8/2011 12:36:14 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LillyBoPeep self-harming was about self-loathing and escapism, while BDSM is sexy, and fun, and a different way for people to have fun or to show they love each other. Re-quoted for its truth and simplicity. Thank you.

NihilusZero -> RE: Self-harm and masochism (3/8/2011 12:39:39 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Palliata I'm not sure I agree with the idea that kink masochists necessarily use pain to go from 0 to 10 instead of -10 to 0. I've met plenty for whom it's a release of their emotional tensions the same way self-harm is for that crowd. I've also met self-harm 'enthusiasts' (if you will) that do it for the high, the 0-10 as oppoesd to -10-0. Is either healthy? Maybe, maybe not. To each their own. But I'm not sure the distinction holds up. Fair point. I think that what I describe is the typical perception, though...which goes back to my point of them effectively being the same (again, save for instances where it's an involuntary action later regretted).

Palliata -> RE: Self-harm and masochism (3/8/2011 12:41:26 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: NihilusZero quote: ORIGINAL: Palliata I'm not sure I agree with the idea that kink masochists necessarily use pain to go from 0 to 10 instead of -10 to 0. I've met plenty for whom it's a release of their emotional tensions the same way self-harm is for that crowd. I've also met self-harm 'enthusiasts' (if you will) that do it for the high, the 0-10 as oppoesd to -10-0. Is either healthy? Maybe, maybe not. To each their own. But I'm not sure the distinction holds up. Fair point. I think that what I describe is the typical perception, though...which goes back to my point of them effectively being the same (again, save for instances where it's an involuntary action later regretted). Ah ok that makes more sense. My mistake.

Page: [1] 2 3 4 next > >>

Collarchat.com © 2025

Terms of Service

0.046875