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Manipulation? - 4/3/2011 6:57:26 AM   
0ldhen


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Manipulation?

Now to begin I realize that the word manipulation has bad connotations for some of you, so I am going to ask that for the moment you temporarily let go of the knee jerk reaction the word may cause in you, at least until I explain where I am going with this one. Thank you in advance for hanging in here for this.

Definition of MANIPULATE
(as defined for this discussion)

: to manage or utilize skillfully b: to control or play upon by artful means

: to change by artful means so as to serve one's purpose


A very good friend of mine trains slaves, not submissives, slaves. Damn, there I go again, another one of those knee jerk reaction words, I am on a roll, once again, I ask your indulgence here.

He trains them for THEMSELVES, he trains them to be strong, to be proud of their worth, to educate themselves for a career if possible/necessary, he trains them to keep up with the world around them, he trains them in service, in surrender, how to pay CLOSE attention to those around them, in time management, as well as teaching them what to look for in an exceptional match for themselves.

But, hang on here comes that word again, he trains them to be master manipulators.

Here is the how; The D type comes home from a bad day, the trained manipulative s type sees this and begins to ply her/his training. Using the eyes they glance at the D’s face, giving a hint of a smile. Coaxing with words and posture they draw the D type into a chair, remove his/her shoes, pulling the sock away from the bottom of their foot, rubbing lightly while softly and gently asking about their day. Manipulating their D they begin to direct the conversation away from the subject that caused the irritation towards a subject that they, the s type, knows the D type finds relaxing/amusing.

Shortly the D goes from stressed and irritated to relaxed and comfy, ready for the evenings activities.

Are you with me so far? I see this as a good thing. Did the s do it for the D? Perhaps, to some degree. Did the s do it from a selfish (see FT’s definition of selfish) point of view? Oh, yeah.

Why? Is the s types evening going to be pleasant if their D is cranky? Probably not.

Do they both benefit? Again, oh yeah.

Back to the training; A successful human being is one who manipulates both their environment and those in their environment until by dint of their hard work and dedication, it is an environment that they are happy living in. This trainer teaches the slaves to manipulate everything they must to secure their own, and not incidentally, their partners happy.

Now to take it further and give you a better perspective to view from; any of you have a sprog you’ve set to college? If so chances are you manipulated their minds so that said sprog believed with all their being that an education was the key to becoming a successful adult.

We all manipulate the environment around us, the slaves my friend trains become manipulators extraordnaire.

Hmmm….I think I’m going to let this be, expounding further as folks respond.

(Note1: ” so as to serve one's purpose” what is a slaves purpose/ To see to their D’s happy, thereby seeing to their own)
(Note2: we are NOT talking about manipulating somebody into signing away the family farm here.)

Wanders off hoping FT will hide me under his bridge for a bit………..


< Message edited by 0ldhen -- 4/3/2011 7:08:28 AM >

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RE: Manipulation? - 4/3/2011 7:08:59 AM   
GreedyTop


Posts: 52100
Joined: 5/2/2007
From: Savannah, GA
Status: offline 		what you said make absolute sense to me Chickie :)

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RE: Manipulation? - 4/3/2011 7:15:53 AM   
0ldhen


Posts: 2221
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From: Henhouse in Trolltopia, Harleyville USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: GreedyTop

what you said make absolute sense to me Chickie :)


Aw....blushes...you jus sayin dat cuz I's you groupie.....(gropie for groupie?)

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RE: Manipulation? - 4/3/2011 7:18:25 AM   
GreedyTop


Posts: 52100
Joined: 5/2/2007
From: Savannah, GA
Status: offline 		gropies good!

groupies good!


No, I am saying that because thats how I see it.. manipulation is NOT always a bad thing...


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RE: Manipulation? - 4/3/2011 7:33:47 AM   
0ldhen


Posts: 2221
Joined: 12/27/2010
From: Henhouse in Trolltopia, Harleyville USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: GreedyTop

gropies good!

groupies good!


No, I am saying that because thats how I see it.. manipulation is NOT always a bad thing...




Thank You, I see the kind of manipulation I am talking about here as a good thing.

And, Yay, I am a GOOD groupie!


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RE: Manipulation? - 4/3/2011 8:44:25 AM   
Edwynn


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You're just trying to manipulate everybody into managing their time better with all this, aren't you?





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RE: Manipulation? - 4/3/2011 8:46:17 AM   
porcelaine


Posts: 5020
Joined: 7/24/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: 0ldhen

(Note1: ” so as to serve one's purpose” what is a slaves purpose/ To see to their D’s happy, thereby seeing to their own)


Greetings,

That's too overly generalized and is rarely indicative of why many serve and by that i mean those that are at this for a long duration. Yes, there are some that would readily agree with your comment and i know more than a few that would answer differently. Sometimes ones motivations aren't altruistic and are rather selfish instead. That needn't be bad. But promoting the idea of selflessness only leads to confusion when an individual finds themselves on the opposite side of the theory.

As for manipulation (as defined), i'm not in agreement. i think we tinker with enough verbiage under the umbrella and everything isn't always related to a BDSMism and the constant need to draw the association gets tiresome. At the end of the day two people are relating and that unfolds in a specific manner that's highly appropriate for the parties involved. i'm not manipulating my dominant for squat and i know the difference. It's something an astute slave learns to distinguish to differentiate between actions performed at the behest or benefit of the dominant and those with an underlining of self that's well camouflaged. Once again, that doesn't necessarily point to the negative, but it is what it is.

And while the subject is presented in a positive light, i'm unable to dismiss the hint of expectation hidden between the lines. See, that's the caveat about manipulation and the slippery slope one tinkers with when pursuing this line of thought. Expectation can be a gruesome albatross if it isn't surmounted. And from this perspective, she's manipulating him for reasons that benefit both, but what happens if he doesn't respond according to cue? When one usually manipulates there's a preconceived outcome one has in mind. Which leaves me to wonder if she's manipulating him in adherence to his will, or following her own desires which will bring her to the same point? For some that works, and others would view the behavior very differently.

Perhaps i'm alone in this line of thinking, but i can't fathom how that would remotely be of benefit to me in any manner. You see, he's the metronome. And when i hear the tick tock i move in tandem. Now there are moments when the cadence is fast and others when it is rather slow. i don't adjust its tempo, that would be akin to telling the conductor to hurry it up. i merely flow through it all. He is the maestro and i'm the pliant melody that responds in kind. i don't need to manipulate him to have my needs met, get what i want, or even do what he says. my response is a result of his will rather than my own interpretation of it.

He impresses one profound truth and everything flows from that reality. All i do and am is an aspect of service to him. The inspiration isn't to manipulate, but to bring to fruition His vision instead. i am not the sculptor. He is. Each slip of the blade has a definitive purpose. He doesn't require me to pick up my own to add a dash of color to the canvas. That would be insulting and could mar the picture in the long run. After all, we're working with his vision, not mine. And thus we finally reach the point where i understand it is not a theoretical truth that he aspires to create. But a living and breathing manifestation of His will made flesh. manipulation by the undersigned would conflict with the etchings applied.

This slave has little use for manipulation as noted. But perhaps the insight will benefit those that do.

Namaste,

~porcelaine


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RE: Manipulation? - 4/3/2011 8:49:16 AM   
JstAnotherSub


Posts: 6174
Status: offline 		Thank you for posting this Oldhen.  We manipulate things every day of our lives.  I have never understood the bad taste the word leaves in so many peoples mouth.

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RE: Manipulation? - 4/3/2011 9:18:42 AM   
DesFIP


Posts: 25191
Joined: 11/25/2007
From: Apple County NY
Status: offline 		The problem is that by manipulating him in this manner, the problem never gets addressed directly, just put off from day to day. If he comes home from work daily in a  bad mood, then there's a problem at the job that needs addressing. Does he need help getting along with coworkers? Should he be seriously considering job hunting? And so on. Manipulating him so she doesn't have to deal with his bad mood may not serve him well in the long run. More importantly, who's the dominant here? If he's incapable of dealing with his own moods, you could view her more as babying him than submitting to him. And by doing this, he won't learn what he needs to handle his moods himself.

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RE: Manipulation? - 4/3/2011 9:22:00 AM   
JstAnotherSub


Posts: 6174
Status: offline 		I didn't read it as he comes home every day in a bad mood.  Just a way to make things better if it happens occasionally.  I have to believe that if he wanted to talk about it, he would.  If he enjoys the pampering, he will allow it to continue.

Both are manipulating the scenario in their own way.

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RE: Manipulation? - 4/3/2011 9:58:56 AM   
TreasureKY


Posts: 3032
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From: Kentucky
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quote:

ORIGINAL: 0ldhen

He trains them for THEMSELVES, he trains them to be strong, to be proud of their worth, to educate themselves for a career if possible/necessary, he trains them to keep up with the world around them, he trains them in service, in surrender, how to pay CLOSE attention to those around them, in time management, as well as teaching them what to look for in an exceptional match for themselves.


In other words, he does the work of a parent. 

quote:

ORIGINAL: 0ldhen

But, hang on here comes that word again, he trains them to be master manipulators.


Meet another person who has little problem with the idea of manipulation.  We do it all the time in life... usually because we find it is necessary to have peace.

The act of manipulation isn't what people react badly to, it is the intent behind the manipulation.

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RE: Manipulation? - 4/3/2011 10:19:54 AM   
LadyPact


Posts: 32566
Status: offline 		I'm sure some people might see it that way, Oldhen.  I'm just not one of them.

I wouldn't function well in the above scenario.  If My mood changes don't come to Me in a way that seems natural, it doesn't work for Me.  I'm not even one of those who responds well to the 'smile to make someone else happy' mindset.  Even the bad day at work example means that I need to decompress My way and in My time.  It may or may not be brought about with outside influence.  If I specifically see that as someone's goal for their own benefit, it's not going to work with Me.  It will most likely make the relieving of stress last longer because I'm not willing to change My mood to meet someone's expectations. 

While some would see that foot rub as anticipatory service, I would not.  I would want My s-type doing whatever it was that I told them that I know will allow Me to shake that bad day in the most expeditious manner.  Any slave of Mine needs to know this about Me and know that it's My way of running My household.  I may want that foot rub.  I may choose another method of relieving My stress (distraction, hot shower, etc) that I know will work for changing My own mood.  As clip can tell you, a bad day at work might be something that I need to shake off, rather than him tending to My feet.  I have no problem in instructing to him what I do want, so that he is still feeling his purpose of making My life easier at that time. 

Now, if said training included the slave knowing how to listen to the person coming through the door at the end of that bad day and knowing that they are serving the person who has their own ideas of how to be served, that would change My mind on the matter.  Training people to make the environment best for what the M wanted is in their best interest.  I do happen to agree with what was stated in the post about being valued.  Yet, what I value most is someone who is serving Me and not some generic idea that they have come up with from their own assumptions.


< Message edited by LadyPact -- 4/3/2011 10:20:19 AM >

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RE: Manipulation? - 4/3/2011 10:44:15 AM   
FullCircle


Posts: 5713
Joined: 11/24/2005
Status: offline 		What I've learnt is that the key to being self sufficient is not to wear socks.

Wearing socks and needing someone to remove them from you is not good. However I understand some strange people need to wear socks and so to that end I've invented easy to remove socks. The way they work is that they have strings attached to the ends. So if you suffer from short arms etc. then you just have to get a hold of the strings and heave ho them off.

I'm all for being manipulated as long as I don't see it coming. Leads to a kind of awkwardness if I do.


< Message edited by FullCircle -- 4/3/2011 10:45:41 AM >

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RE: Manipulation? - 4/3/2011 8:17:16 PM   
0ldhen


Posts: 2221
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From: Henhouse in Trolltopia, Harleyville USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: JstAnotherSub

Thank you for posting this Oldhen.  We manipulate things every day of our lives.  I have never understood the bad taste the word leaves in so many peoples mouth.



Thank you JAS, love the avatar btw, The word does often conjure up images of nefarious doings. But the truth is in your statement I bolded.

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RE: Manipulation? - 4/3/2011 8:19:14 PM   
0ldhen


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From: Henhouse in Trolltopia, Harleyville USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: JstAnotherSub

I didn't read it as he comes home every day in a bad mood.  Just a way to make things better if it happens occasionally.


Thanks DF but JAS is correct, I was not speaking of any long term issue, just using a simple bad day for an example .

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RE: Manipulation? - 4/3/2011 8:27:41 PM   
0ldhen


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From: Henhouse in Trolltopia, Harleyville USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: TreasureKY

quote:

ORIGINAL: 0ldhen

He trains them for THEMSELVES, he trains them to be strong, to be proud of their worth, to educate themselves for a career if possible/necessary, he trains them to keep up with the world around them, he trains them in service, in surrender, how to pay CLOSE attention to those around them, in time management, as well as teaching them what to look for in an exceptional match for themselves.


In other words, he does the work of a parent. 




Exactly, I am very sad to say. He teaches; hold on just a sec while explain a few of his rules while he does this. I feel I should at this point because so often these days the words trainer or mentor means "one who is using this line on you to get some"

He NEVER engages in sex or scenes with those he trains. He does not want them imprinting/fixating on him, nor does he wish to cause hurt.

Now, back to where I was, you are so right in this statement, like a parent. It is the unfortunate fact that some of them were not given the tools to work with to stand on their own.

Then there are those who need a better skill set for WIITWD, so, yes, like a parent giving you a college course in D/s is a fair enough beginning description of what he does.

And Thank you as well Treasure.

< Message edited by 0ldhen -- 4/3/2011 8:28:08 PM >

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RE: Manipulation? - 4/4/2011 4:16:10 AM   
LaTigresse


Posts: 26123
Joined: 1/15/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact

I'm sure some people might see it that way, Oldhen.  I'm just not one of them.

I wouldn't function well in the above scenario.  If My mood changes don't come to Me in a way that seems natural, it doesn't work for Me.  I'm not even one of those who responds well to the 'smile to make someone else happy' mindset.  Even the bad day at work example means that I need to decompress My way and in My time.  It may or may not be brought about with outside influence.  If I specifically see that as someone's goal for their own benefit, it's not going to work with Me.  It will most likely make the relieving of stress last longer because I'm not willing to change My mood to meet someone's expectations. 

While some would see that foot rub as anticipatory service, I would not.  I would want My s-type doing whatever it was that I told them that I know will allow Me to shake that bad day in the most expeditious manner.  Any slave of Mine needs to know this about Me and know that it's My way of running My household.  I may want that foot rub.  I may choose another method of relieving My stress (distraction, hot shower, etc) that I know will work for changing My own mood.  As clip can tell you, a bad day at work might be something that I need to shake off, rather than him tending to My feet.  I have no problem in instructing to him what I do want, so that he is still feeling his purpose of making My life easier at that time. 

Now, if said training included the slave knowing how to listen to the person coming through the door at the end of that bad day and knowing that they are serving the person who has their own ideas of how to be served, that would change My mind on the matter.  Training people to make the environment best for what the M wanted is in their best interest.  I do happen to agree with what was stated in the post about being valued.  Yet, what I value most is someone who is serving Me and not some generic idea that they have come up with from their own assumptions.



This and especially the part I bolded.

I really do not want anyone trying to manipulate me, no matter how it is prettied up. Sometimes I actually ENJOY my bad moods! It is a process, something I need to work through. Said slave can either stay the hell out of my way and let me work through it, or ask if there is something they can do, something I specifically want or need. Because quite frankly, if they start fawning over me, trying to coax me into the mood THEY prefer to see, that is only going to make me more grumpy. The difference then will be that I focus it on them.

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RE: Manipulation? - 4/4/2011 5:05:45 AM   
0ldhen


Posts: 2221
Joined: 12/27/2010
From: Henhouse in Trolltopia, Harleyville USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: FullCircle


I'm all for being manipulated as long as I don't see it coming. Leads to a kind of awkwardness if I do.




First a note; Thank you to those who have made posts, some of them I will admit to delaying my replys to until I can get together with this Trainer and have him read and evaluate the posts so my answers do not violate his trust. Thank each of you for your responses all input is highly valued.

Now, FC, good point, the boys and girls who come from this mans program are so polished you never know what is going on, it is subtle, it is beautiful, it is awe inspiring to watch.

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RE: Manipulation? - 4/4/2011 10:28:28 AM   
needlesandpins


Posts: 3901
Status: offline 		fr

i wish i knew the powers. i do try to lift the mood of those around me when they've had a bad day or are tired but i still seem to be the one making all the conversation while i'm lucky to get the odd word out of them. of course i'm not talking a D/s type thing, just everyday life. sometimes it can be very tiresome to be worrying about the other person's mood swings and such.

i'm rather of the opinion that work should be left at work. have a bitch about it at home or with friends, but then drop it and leave it behind. the other people in your life are not the cause of that stress so why should you bring their mood down with yours. get over it and leave it behind, it's not conducive to a happy home life or friendship.

i'd far rather speak about it with someone and then move on than bring them down too. if not (we don't always want to talk things through) then i'll just say i have stuff going on but i don't want to talk about it and either leave it at that and move on, or appologise and take myself away until i've sorted it out. i want people to do the same with me. i don't want to be treading on eggshells wondering if i'm doing the right thing, nore is it nice making all the conversation while they put very little into it. another thing i have noticed is that when people are like this they pick fault with others where usually they wouldn't.

i totally get why an s would want to manipulate a D out of a mood, it's coz it's a crap space for everyone to be in. D's should take some responsibility and leave their work/out-of-home shit where they picked it up. just as we are always told not to take our homelife to work. if you must bring your baggage with you then talk it through and let it go.

needles

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RE: Manipulation? - 4/4/2011 10:59:57 AM   
porcelaine


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Joined: 7/24/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: needlesandpins

i totally get why an s would want to manipulate a D out of a mood, it's coz it's a crap space for everyone to be in. D's should take some responsibility and leave their work/out-of-home shit where they picked it up. just as we are always told not to take our homelife to work. if you must bring your baggage with you then talk it through and let it go.


Greetings needles,

In my opinion changes in temperament are a part of life. Work is merely one example of frustration spilling over and impacting unsuspecting persons. It's one of those strange nuances of everyday living that i make adjustments for. While i can't speak for your experiences, i most certainly have been on the receiving end of rant sessions and other things that allow the other person to get it off their chest so to speak. In other instances my unwillingness to force a change or dialogue was the motivating factor behind the shift in mood.

As a slave, i shy away from should speak for many reasons. The most notable being the cessation of the liberties i've set aside to live according to another person's principles. In my mind, 'shoulds' are addressed during the acquaintance process to determine if the desired outcomes can be properly met by both parties. But upon agreement, i should be willing to do things his way and that involves bearing moments of discomfort. It can be very easy to forget that they endure their own unpleasantness for our sake. But he does it with a larger goal in mind called us. :)

Namaste,

~porcelaine


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