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RE: "A woman has the right to do what she wants wi... - 4/20/2011 5:01:46 PM

HannahLynHeather

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quote:

The bottom line is if someone doesn't like the laws, they have the right to try to get them changed. Even if you don't have the right to smoke crack, you certainly have the option.

i agree in principle, however i dislike the entire concept of laws. i want them all done away with. and of course i always have the option of smoking crack, but i believe i have the right to as well, and want that right accepted and recognized.

hannah lynn

_____________________________

clique? i don't need no stinking clique!

fuck a duck ~w. disney

My Twitter: http://twitter.com/HannahFuck

i hope you enjoyed the post, and as always my friends....have a nice day

(in reply to BitaTruble)

RE: "A woman has the right to do what she wants wi... - 4/20/2011 5:36:18 PM

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Joined: 1/12/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: HannahLynHeather
i agree in principle, however i dislike the entire concept of laws. i want them all done away with. and of course i always have the option of smoking crack, but i believe i have the right to as well, and want that right accepted and recognized.

hannah lynn

Fair enough. What are you doing about it?

_____________________________

"Oh, so it's just like
Rock, paper, scissors."

He laughed. "You are the wisest woman I know."

(in reply to HannahLynHeather)

RE: "A woman has the right to do what she wants wi... - 4/20/2011 5:45:58 PM

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Most of this thread has been framed in terms of 'rights' with little or no mention of the obligations that are attached to rights. Despite that, we all seem to agree that in exercising our individual rights, we are under an obligation not to hurt others.

We all have a right to free speech and to express ourselves, but an obligation not to abuse that right as WBC and Pastor Jones do. It would be lovely to live in a society where there were no laws, no restraints on expression or action - or would it? How do we know? No such society has ever existed AFAIK. It's doubtful one could ever exist.

Social anthropologist Mary Douglas insists that whenever and where ever people form groups (of any sort), one of the first things they do is establish a set of rules to govern behaviour in the group. to distinguish group members from non-members and to ensure continuation of the group. The price of being part of the group is subservience to the group's rules. The right to belong comes with an equal obligation to obey.

The notion that rights come without obligations is one of more insidious forms of absolutism, and we all know (or ought to know) that that road leads straight to catastrophe. When we discuss rights without also discussing the obligations that accompany them, are we are being a bit lop-sided in our discussion? .....

< Message edited by tweakabelle -- 4/20/2011 5:47:58 PM >

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(in reply to HannahLynHeather)

RE: "A woman has the right to do what she wants wi... - 4/20/2011 6:17:12 PM

HannahLynHeather

Posts: 2950
Joined: 4/4/2011
From: where it's at
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quote:

Fair enough. What are you doing about it?

to the best of my ability i live with as little interaction between myself and "society" or the state. i do not participate in the state in any way if at all possible. i do not recognize the validity of laws, thus i ignore them. i don't make use of the police or the health care system, nor do i vote or pay taxes. i do what i want when i want.

i assume you really meant what am i doing to achieve my ideal society for all, well the answer to that is nothing. it isn't my place to force anybody else to live by my rules. i explain my ideal social construction on occasion (but i rarely get more than a few minutes attention before it is assumed i am an idiot), but by my own rules, doing anything further would be wrong. i am free to live as i please, as are you, but i am not free to try alter the way you live. and that includes allowing you to have rules and laws that apply to you, you just do not have the right to impose those rules and laws on me.

hannah lynn

_____________________________

clique? i don't need no stinking clique!

fuck a duck ~w. disney

My Twitter: http://twitter.com/HannahFuck

i hope you enjoyed the post, and as always my friends....have a nice day

(in reply to BitaTruble)

RE: "A woman has the right to do what she wants wi... - 4/20/2011 6:29:00 PM

HannahLynHeather

Posts: 2950
Joined: 4/4/2011
From: where it's at
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quote:

Most of this thread has been framed in terms of 'rights' with little or no mention of the obligations that are attached to rights.

i did not mention any obligations attached to rights because there are none. a right carries no obligations whatsoever.

quote:

How do we know? No such society has ever existed AFAIK. It's doubtful one could ever exist.

true, all true, even the last bit. however that won't stop me from doing my best to live as if i did live in such a world.

quote:

The price of being part of the group is subservience to the group's rules. The right to belong comes with an equal obligation to obey.

i was given no choice, my inclusion in the group was assumed at my birth. i don't want to belong if it means having to obey.

quote:

The notion that rights come without obligations is one of more insidious forms of absolutism, and we all know (or ought to know) that that road leads straight to catastrophe.

why?

quote:

When we discuss rights without also discussing the obligations that accompany them, are we are being a bit lop-sided in our discussion?

not at all. there are no obligations accompanying a right, the right is. it exists independent of anything. you have these rights simply by virtue of existing, regardless of where on the planet you happen to find yourself.

hannah lynn

_____________________________

clique? i don't need no stinking clique!

fuck a duck ~w. disney

My Twitter: http://twitter.com/HannahFuck

i hope you enjoyed the post, and as always my friends....have a nice day

(in reply to tweakabelle)

RE: "A woman has the right to do what she wants wi... - 4/20/2011 7:57:30 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: HannahLynHeather

quote:

There is a grand "we" that comes into play. Under the right circumstances, it will possess a much higher moral authority than any individual, or collection of individuals.
sorry, i simply reject that hypothesis entirely. it has no internal logical consistency.

pray tell me why a bunch of you together somehow suddenly attain rights you do not have individually?

i think this whole question boils down to whether a person perceives that this "we", this collection of individuals, is an entity that has rights, or not. i can see why the two ideas can't be reconciled, just as i can see that the notion that human life begins at conception is unreconcilable with the idea that it does NOT. i know my own position on each argument. But i can't see, in either case, why either side's argument is *illogical*. i'm sorry, hannah lynn, but i don't think that the hypothesis has no logical consistency. i think you just don't agree.

For the record, i'd like to address the question of where these collective rights come from. They come from nowhere, they just are. And before you say that's illogical, i would ask you the same question: where do these individual rights come from? Because i think you're going to give me exactly the same answer. (Or, to repeat your own answer, "we all have these rights simply by virtue of existing".) The concept of "rights" can't be proven deductively. Or, in other words, both of us can find reasons to support what we believe, but neither one of us can "prove" that a right exists or doesn't.

Lastly, you admit that this sort of utopian society has never existed on a grand scale, and probably never could. In that case, what do you hope to achieve by living your life this way?

pam

< Message edited by gungadin09 -- 4/20/2011 7:59:30 PM >

(in reply to HannahLynHeather)

RE: "A woman has the right to do what she wants wi... - 4/20/2011 8:23:53 PM

HannahLynHeather

Posts: 2950
Joined: 4/4/2011
From: where it's at
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quote:

For the record, i'd like to address the question of where these collective rights come from. They come from nowhere, they just are. And before you say that's illogical, i would ask you the same question: where do these individual rights come from? Because i think you're going to give me exactly the same answer. (Or, to repeat your own answer, "we all have these rights simply by virtue of existing".) The concept of "rights" can't be proven deductively. Or, in other words, both of us can find reasons to support what we believe, but neither one of us can "prove" that a right exists or doesn't.

good point! and well argued too.

since i do indeed accept that an individual has rights simply by existing, i must also accept the possibility that the collective can have rights simply by existing. i still maintain that the individual's right s would be paramount over those of the collective.

quote:

Lastly, you admit that this sort of utopian society has never existed on a grand scale, and probably never could. In that case, what do you hope to achieve by living your life this way?

to be as close to actually truly free as i can possibly get. i admit it is not possible to do so completely in this world, as i said i can be jailed, but i still feel that if i really believe this, which i do, then it behooves me to do my best to realize the ideal.

hannah lynn

_____________________________

clique? i don't need no stinking clique!

fuck a duck ~w. disney

My Twitter: http://twitter.com/HannahFuck

i hope you enjoyed the post, and as always my friends....have a nice day

(in reply to gungadin09)

RE: "A woman has the right to do what she wants wi... - 4/21/2011 4:22:00 AM

Posts: 14463
Joined: 6/19/2008
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: HannahLynHeather

quote:

Fair enough. What are you doing about it?
to the best of my ability i live with as little interaction between myself and "society" or the state. i do not participate in the state in any way if at all possible. i do not recognize the validity of laws, thus i ignore them. i don't make use of the police or the health care system, nor do i vote or pay taxes. i do what i want when i want.

Interesting and when you finally get busted you can spend the rest of your life making use of the police and the health care system. But I have heard the jails are really nice in Canada so you should be ok.

quote:

i assume you really meant what am i doing to achieve my ideal society for all, well the answer to that is nothing. it isn't my place to force anybody else to live by my rules. i explain my ideal social construction on occasion (but i rarely get more than a few minutes attention before it is assumed i am an idiot), but by my own rules, doing anything further would be wrong. i am free to live as i please, as are you, but i am not free to try alter the way you live. and that includes allowing you to have rules and laws that apply to you, you just do not have the right to impose those rules and laws on me.

hannah lynn

Oh please, not your place? You mean your too busy making you feel good to give a rats ass about anyone else. You were honest about not caring about laws, at least be honest about this part too.

_____________________________

"Sweetie, you're wasting your gum" .. Albert

This here is the boi formerly known as orfunboi

(in reply to HannahLynHeather)

RE: "A woman has the right to do what she wants wi... - 4/21/2011 7:14:05 AM

HannahLynHeather

Posts: 2950
Joined: 4/4/2011
From: where it's at
Status: offline

quote:

Interesting and when you finally get busted you can spend the rest of your life making use of the police and the health care system. But I have heard the jails are really nice in Canada so you should be ok.

i fail to see the relevance of this. if the state locks me up again then they do. but how that involves making use of the police for the rest of my life is beyond me.

quote:

Oh please, not your place? You mean your too busy making you feel good to give a rats ass about anyone else. You were honest about not caring about laws, at least be honest about this part too.

well either you are dense or you haven't been paying attention. i do not claim any right to dictate to anybody else how they should live their lives, given that, how can i possibly force you to give up the rules and laws that are obviously important to you? you seem to think that a personal philosophy must be translated into a general political philosophy for everyone. this is not the case. by the tenets of my philosophy, i must allow you to live your life the way you want. so it is indeed "not my place" to try to force my view on others.

and even if i were to claim a right to do so, how do you propose i might do something? i can't very well do it through changing the laws, i don't recognize the validity of laws. i can't do it through the use of societal pressures, i don't recognize the rights of society to do so. i can't do it through the political process, i don't participate in the political process because i don't recognize its validity or authority. what exactly what do you propose i do? start throwing bombs? random political assassinations? those actions of the anarchists of old were based on a very different concept than that which i propose. theirs was a political philosophy, mine is a personal one. theirs assumed a right to transform society, to determine for all how they should live, mine specifically denies such a right.

quote:

You mean your too busy making you feel good to give a rats ass about anyone else.

puleeez!! do you really think that it is feels good to live like this? do you think it feels good to be sick in a country with universal medical care and to not participate in that system, to find a doctor who will treat you for cash (its illegal for them to do so) or for free when you don't have a health card? do you think it feels good when robbed to simply have to carry on and replace what was stolen? do you think it feels good to have to be concerned about being arrested at any time for any number of petty infractions? do you think it feels good to have to find somebody who will employ you when you don't have a sin number? do you think it feels good when raped to have to simply pick yourself up, shower, and carry on?

you obviously have not considered what it might mean to actually live by this philosophy. you have focused on the take drugs aspect of it. i don't do drugs anymore, i said that many pages ago, so there really are no particular "feel good" benefits to this philosophy other than to be free, and even that is imperfect as its impossible to be completely free in this world.

its clear you disagree with me and my philosophy, that's fine, almost everybody does. but unlike those who accept that i believe in this and engage my ideas honestly and debate them on their own merits as a few on here have done, you assume i use it purely as an excuse to get high or have fun, and you could not be further from the truth.

hannah lynn

_____________________________

clique? i don't need no stinking clique!

fuck a duck ~w. disney

My Twitter: http://twitter.com/HannahFuck

i hope you enjoyed the post, and as always my friends....have a nice day

(in reply to thishereboi)

RE: "A woman has the right to do what she wants wi... - 4/22/2011 4:42:30 AM

Posts: 14463
Joined: 6/19/2008
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: HannahLynHeather

quote:

Interesting and when you finally get busted you can spend the rest of your life making use of the police and the health care system. But I have heard the jails are really nice in Canada so you should be ok.
i fail to see the relevance of this. if the state locks me up again then they do. but how that involves making use of the police for the rest of my life is beyond me.

So sorry, I should not have said police, I should have said correctional officers. Same difference really. You will have someone else in law enforcement controlling your life.

quote:

quote:

Oh please, not your place? You mean your too busy making you feel good to give a rats ass about anyone else. You were honest about not caring about laws, at least be honest about this part too.
well either you are dense or you haven't been paying attention. i do not claim any right to dictate to anybody else how they should live their lives, given that, how can i possibly force you to give up the rules and laws that are obviously important to you? you seem to think that a personal philosophy must be translated into a general political philosophy for everyone. this is not the case. by the tenets of my philosophy, i must allow you to live your life the way you want. so it is indeed "not my place" to try to force my view on others.

and even if i were to claim a right to do so, how do you propose i might do something? i can't very well do it through changing the laws, i don't recognize the validity of laws. i can't do it through the use of societal pressures, i don't recognize the rights of society to do so. i can't do it through the political process, i don't participate in the political process because i don't recognize its validity or authority. what exactly what do you propose i do? start throwing bombs? random political assassinations? those actions of the anarchists of old were based on a very different concept than that which i propose. theirs was a political philosophy, mine is a personal one. theirs assumed a right to transform society, to determine for all how they should live, mine specifically denies such a right.

There are a lot of things you can do to help change things. Or you can sit around and make excuses on why you can't. Your choice.

quote:

quote:

You mean your too busy making you feel good to give a rats ass about anyone else.
puleeez!! do you really think that it is feels good to live like this? do you think it feels good to be sick in a country with universal medical care and to not participate in that system, to find a doctor who will treat you for cash (its illegal for them to do so) or for free when you don't have a health card? do you think it feels good when robbed to simply have to carry on and replace what was stolen? do you think it feels good to have to be concerned about being arrested at any time for any number of petty infractions? do you think it feels good to have to find somebody who will employ you when you don't have a sin number? do you think it feels good when raped to have to simply pick yourself up, shower, and carry on?

you obviously have not considered what it might mean to actually live by this philosophy. you have focused on the take drugs aspect of it. i don't do drugs anymore, i said that many pages ago, so there really are no particular "feel good" benefits to this philosophy other than to be free, and even that is imperfect as its impossible to be completely free in this world.

its clear you disagree with me and my philosophy, that's fine, almost everybody does. but unlike those who accept that i believe in this and engage my ideas honestly and debate them on their own merits as a few on here have done, you assume i use it purely as an excuse to get high or have fun, and you could not be further from the truth.

hannah lynn

Well, if your life choices are making you this miserable, maybe you should work on changing that. It certainly explains why you seem so bitter when you post.

_____________________________

"Sweetie, you're wasting your gum" .. Albert

This here is the boi formerly known as orfunboi

(in reply to HannahLynHeather)

RE: "A woman has the right to do what she wants wi... - 4/22/2011 1:50:40 PM

HannahLynHeather

Posts: 2950
Joined: 4/4/2011
From: where it's at
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quote:

You will have someone else in law enforcement controlling your life.

that's true. not desirable, but possibly unavoidable. but seeing as i have already conceded the power of the state to do this, i fail to see the relevance of continuing to harp on it. yes i can be jailed. i have been in the past, and i am pretty sure i will be again. it happens, its part of life.

quote:

There are a lot of things you can do to help change things.

ok, why don't you suggest some. i don't think there are any, but i doubt i have thought of everything.

quote:

Or you can sit around and make excuses on why you can't. Your choice.

actually, its your choice, not mine. i am not making excuses. as i explained (this does get tiring, having to repeat things over and over, so please read carefully...others have grasped it so i know the problem is not in my explanation). my philosophy directly forbids me from imposing my wishes on anybody else. i have pointed the way, it is your (generic collective you) choice to take it or not. i hope others take it, but it isn't for me to make others take it.

quote:

Well, if your life choices are making you this miserable, maybe you should work on changing that.

i see that you are having trouble understanding. i will clarify. there are many things about living this way that do not "feel good", i am sure you can think of many aspects of your life that do not "feel good". but it isn't about feeling good, its about doing the right thing. about living the way you feel you ought to. its about living your life in a way that lets you be at peace with your conscience and according to your principles. ask anybody with a firm set of principles and they will tell you that it can be hard to stick to them at times, that it would be easier to just let things slide now and then. but if you truly embrace your principles, then you don't let things slide. you accept the hardships those principles create because they are necessary.

quote:

It certainly explains why you seem so bitter when you post.

if i seem bitter in my posts, that is an error in your perception. i am not bitter, nor angry, nor sad. i am very happy, i enjoy every day immensely. i am young, as close to free as is possible, and utterly in love. what more could a person reasonably ask for from life? i just happen to be a right cunt.

what you mistake for bitterness is probably just the fact that that you dislike me and what i stand for. and you dislike the fact that i will say what i want to without sugarcoating it to protect others' sensibilities. but as i have said on this thread and on others; how others react to my words is their business, not mine. your sensibilities are yours, not mine. it is your problem to deal with them, not the problem of anybody else.

hannah lynn

< Message edited by HannahLynHeather -- 4/22/2011 2:12:39 PM >

_____________________________

clique? i don't need no stinking clique!

fuck a duck ~w. disney

My Twitter: http://twitter.com/HannahFuck

i hope you enjoyed the post, and as always my friends....have a nice day

(in reply to thishereboi)

RE: "A woman has the right to do what she wants wi... - 4/22/2011 9:43:54 PM

Posts: 903
Joined: 3/29/2011
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quote:

We all have a right to free speech and to express ourselves, but an obligation not to abuse that right as WBC and Pastor Jones do. It would be lovely to live in a society where there were no laws, no restraints on expression or action - or would it? How do we know? No such society has ever existed AFAIK. It's doubtful one could ever exist.

IMO the focus should be more on cultivating the obligation and less on restricting the rights.

(in reply to tweakabelle)

RE: "A woman has the right to do what she wants wi... - 4/22/2011 10:18:33 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: imperatrixx
IMO the focus should be more on cultivating the obligation and less on restricting the rights.

In your mind, which obligations should be cultivated and which rights left unrestricted?

pam

(in reply to imperatrixx)

RE: "A woman has the right to do what she wants wi... - 4/22/2011 10:23:47 PM

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Joined: 3/29/2011
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quote:

ORIGINAL: gungadin09

In your mind, which obligations should be cultivated and which rights left unrestricted?

pam

In my mind the two do not contradict each other.

(in reply to gungadin09)

RE: "A woman has the right to do what she wants wi... - 4/22/2011 11:11:20 PM

HannahLynHeather

Posts: 2950
Joined: 4/4/2011
From: where it's at
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watch yourself! pam is scary good at this debating stuff!

hannah lynn

_____________________________

clique? i don't need no stinking clique!

fuck a duck ~w. disney

My Twitter: http://twitter.com/HannahFuck

i hope you enjoyed the post, and as always my friends....have a nice day

(in reply to imperatrixx)

RE: "A woman has the right to do what she wants wi... - 4/22/2011 11:41:42 PM

Posts: 3232
Joined: 3/19/2010
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quote:

ORIGINAL: imperatrixx

quote:

ORIGINAL: gungadin09

In your mind, which obligations should be cultivated and which rights left unrestricted?

pam

In my mind the two do not contradict each other.

Okay, i don't get it. Are you saying that "obligations" and "rights" are exactly the same thing? Because i would have said they're *not*. Taking the OP as an example, i would have said that the right for a woman to do crack carries with it the obligation that she *alone* bears the consequences for doing it. Or, in other words, my right to swing my fist ends where your face begins.

With that in mind, what obligations do you think ought to be emphasized and what rights do you think ought to be left alone?

pam

(in reply to imperatrixx)

RE: "A woman has the right to do what she wants wi... - 4/22/2011 11:43:00 PM

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Joined: 3/19/2010
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quote:

ORIGINAL: HannahLynHeather

watch yourself! pam is scary good at this debating stuff!

hannah lynn

Aw, shucks!

pam

(in reply to HannahLynHeather)

RE: "A woman has the right to do what she wants wi... - 4/23/2011 12:24:58 AM

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Joined: 3/29/2011
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quote:

ORIGINAL: gungadin09

Okay, i don't get it. Are you saying that "obligations" and "rights" are exactly the same thing? Because i would have said they're *not*. Taking the OP as an example, i would have said that the right for a woman to do crack carries with it the obligation that she *alone* bears the consequences for doing it. Or, in other words, my right to swing my fist ends where your face begins.

With that in mind, what obligations do you think ought to be emphasized and what rights do you think ought to be left alone?

pam

No, I'm saying...like...a guy has the *right* to sleep with random women and break their heart. However, he is also conditioned by society to not do these things. Or at least, he used to be.

Basically I'm saying that taking away the *right* to have casual sex, making it illegal, would be less effective than social *obligation* not to do that, knowing you'll be looked down on.

Leave the rights alone, but cultivate a sense of morality in people so that regardless of whether or not they have the right to do something, they will be more likely to make responsible, adult choices.

< Message edited by imperatrixx -- 4/23/2011 12:28:53 AM >

(in reply to gungadin09)

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