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That need to embrace change through Marxism. - 4/16/2011 5:06:41 AM   
stellauk


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Most people I feel would agree with the statement that we are living in troubled times.

Perhaps some feel that the problems exist on the right - the Republicans, the Conservatives, that they are the ones causing all the political problems.

I disagree. Right wingers or people on the right, the Conservatives, the Republicans, the UK's BNP, the Polish Law and Justice party (we are approaching another Polish election to the Sejm and it is surprising just how similar the situation is to the US with the right wing constantly attacking the incumbent Bronislaw Komorowski) and even the Tea Party, these are all people being themselves.

All our biggest political problems exist on the left. They exist because socialism and Marxism are among two of the most abused words in politics. There is no solution, financial, political or economic, until we start to address these issues and find a consensus of opinion - left and right - to two very basic questions.

What is a Marxist? What is a socialist?

The problem is a simple one. Many of those who claim that they are, aren't.

This is very clear when we consider that Joseph Stalin described himself as a Marxist. He was anything but a Marxist.

Marx was an egalitarian. Stalin was anything but. Eastern European communism, within this Stalinism, was little more than a politicized version of organized crime. There was the elite, the Party, among the women the 'zhencheenka', and the proletariat. Marx sympathized with the peasants, Stalin stole their land.

Marx was a democrat. Stalin suppressed democracy in a regime so brutal it has yet to be matched by any other modern dictator. Over a 100 million Slavs were exterminated or murdered, millions more were displaced throughout Eastern Europe. Marx favoured higher wages and a decent income. Stalin cut wages systematically and created poverty. Marx said workers have no country. Stalin enforced patriotism. Marx was an atheist, Stalin turned him into an icon.

It can be argued that Stalin was the prime enemy of Marxism, diametrically opposed on every fundamental issue. This was because Stalin was never a communist, but was an evil conservative who formed his politics out of the defeat and collapse of the Russian revolution and transformed Russia into an anti-communist and state capitalist state. This explains the roots of Stalin's tyranny.

We are still experiencing the effects of Stalin today. Totalitarianism is becoming global, and the global ruling class, the capitalists, are doing all that they can to undermine the worker and to keep the working class subdued and exploited. They own almost all property, assets and are doing all they can to control the world's resources too.

Workers have no property and can only theoretically gain property by working for capital, selling their labour power in the market like any other commodity. Fear of unemployment is a permanent threat. Capitalism forces workers together in large workplaces where they are organized like armies under the command of a hierarchy of 'officers and sergeants'.

Political parties have a similar strategy. The media are employed in a culture of disinformation which prevents the workers from ever becoming informed enough so that they can organize and this is true both on the left as it is on the right.

The vast majority of people are 'wage slaves', forced through circumstance to serve the global ruling capitalist class, bossed around at work, and threatened by the fear and the social stigma of unemployment and social rejection. The working class expands with capitalism, competition forces the displaced together, and as the capital expands so too does the struggle of the workers. From this we get trade unions and political parties - particularly on the left wing.

However once in power the left wing political parties, like the right wing parties, are forced to share power with the ruling global capitalist elite. Socialism becomes compromised, and those who have struggled and led the struggle of the workers are forced to surrender that struggle, and this sometimes happens with a betrayal of the people who gave them their power. This happened with the Polish Solidarity movement after Lech Walesa took power. It happened again with New Labour in Britain under Tony Blair. Blair was a traitor to the socialist cause, that of the worker, and an even bigger enemy to the worker than Margaret Thatcher could have ever dreamed of being. We can see Obama being forced to make the same compromises.

We now have the fake solution - austerity. The global ruling class has reached a consensus that cuts are necessary, and this is an international consensus. US politicians have agreed a record $38 billion of cuts, all in the next 12 months. The need for cuts in the United Kingdom is causing the Conservatives, the ruling party in the coalition to renege on almost all of their election promises.

Cuts are designed to reduce government debt by reducing government spending. But what they achieve is - through cutting demand for goods and services - a fall in economic output. Any fall in economic output leads to a fall in the amount of taxation received and an increase in the amount of benefits paid out. This increases government borrowing and thus spending cuts are doomed to fail by their very introduction and implementation.

Commodities are necessary to sustain the economy, trade and to ensure income. This requires both capital and labour. Without capital there is no commodity, and therefore nothing to trade. Without labour there is also no commodity and nothing to trade.

This explains why the work ethic is central to Marxism. Without labour and activity the worker has no power. Marx would have hated the welfare benefits system because it is defeat for the worker, failure to sell one's labour, and a weakening of the struggle against the ruling global elite. Indeed the ruling global elite are aware of this, which is why unemployment is used as a strategy to undermine the employment market, undermine workers rights and workers' power. Welfare reforms do not lead to any job creation or any significant reduction in unemployment. They just change the rules by which welfare benefits are paid out. The status quo is maintained, as does the power dynamic.

This also explains why society is central to the values of socialism. Here again we can see how socialism is a term abused not just by the right wing but also by people on the left wing. Hugo Chavez claims to be a socialist. Then why is Venezuela pretty much a Third World country in South America? Gaddafi prides himself on being an 'Islamic socialist', and yet, after decades in power, Gaddafi still has to resort to using military force against his own people to maintain power. Is Libya one of the leading oil producers in the world? What concerns has Gaddafi ever shown for Libyan society?

Society for most people is that place in their home, their living rooms, their bedrooms, it is their desk in an office, their friends and family, the local shops and supermarket. Society is the websites they visit on the Internet, the bills they pay each month. This is the extent society has for most people when we really get down to the nitty gritty and examine the bottom line.

But society is out there, it exists, and whether we like it or not it affects our lives just as culture affects our identities and the way we think and interact with other people.

For so long the global ruling classes pretended to be our friends, simply because they needed the capital and were scared of the incessant wage demands by the unions when it transpired that all this new technology meant specialists and with specialists came costs. New technology costs money, and they wanted the technology because they saw a decrease in the costs for the same or greater profits.

And so they befriended the people, giving people credit and doing what they can to condition them into thinking that minimal investment and the short term return is always the best way. The ruling capitalists pretended to be our friends selling the illusions of prosperity, power and ownership, but in reality they were creating a greater need for capital through the creation of new debt.

This explains why generally in three decades there has been a general increase in poverty and unemployment rather than prosperity, workers are generally more subdued and exploited than they were and face more competition. This is not just competition from within the local community or society, but also internationally and we can see this through the outsourcing of jobs to poorer countries.

Again the concept of ownership is nothing more than a mere illusion. While people live in their homes and have freedom to use their homes as they wish, if they are still paying mortgages they cannot be seen to be owning their own homes, and ownership rests very firmly with the lender, who, should someone renege on their terms of borrowing, can take steps to recover the property.

This has created a society where many people are dependent on some larger institution for their income - whether it be a Government through either employment or welfare, or a larger corporation - part of the ruling global class - through employment.

Austerity and spending cuts are not a solution by any means, as we have seen above. What they achieve is to place the burden of the current economic crisis very squarely on the shoulders of the workers, i.e. the people. This serves to further increase the need to work for capital in order to survive and to undermine their position in society. It also serves to reduce the possibility of survival through poverty and to further marginalize the poor, and therefore increase the fear of becoming unemployed.

One of the biggest misunderstandings people have with Marxism and socialism is misunderstanding that it is a struggle for equality - Marx being an egalitarian - as opposed to a struggle for victory or to reverse the balance of power. Marxism is not anarchy, these are two very separate political concepts. The basic premise of Marx I feel is that labour is just as necessary for productivity as capital and that both go hand in hand to provide prosperity, not just for the elite few or the global ruling capitalist class, but for everybody.

It also needs to be understood that the balance of power rests not with the ruling global political class, but with the people. That part of the Polish Solidarity movement which has survived intact is that part achieved through the struggle and cooperation of people working towards greater freedom and democracy. The Citizens Platform party, occupying the political centre, has outlasted the right wing coalition of the Law and Justice party, the IRI (International Republican Institute), Lech Walesa and the parties sponsored by and set up through the Polish Catholic Church.

Similarly in Britain the coalition government headed by the Conservatives is in turmoil and ministers who are afraid of marches, demonstrations and strikes, which are planned and taking place, are busy backpedalling and rethinking their austerity policies. That global ruling political class only has power when the workers or people are divided, when they are disenfranchised, and when they give up that power voluntarily.

There is no need for a revolution, armed struggles, or indeed civil unrest. The global ruling political class can only play on our fears simply because they have no moral justification for their cause. I feel that Marxism and socialism require social cohesion and the contribution of everyone in society through sustained occupation and labour which together with capital ensures sustained economic output. However I am a Marxist who isn't anti-capitalist, I see benefits in both, I feel party politics have run their course, are outdated and our economic problems require effective solutions which can come from anywhere on the political spectrum - left or right.

Therefore I am not suggesting or advocating the change from the existing political solutions to an exclusively Marxist or socialist system, but rather that both are embraced and used as tools to make up the greater political whole for the benefit of everyone, irrespective of where they identify themselves in politics.

This is what I am putting out for discussion.

References
Coalition in turmoil - Kick 'em while they're down Sadie Robinson, Socialist Worker 12 April 2011
Austerity - A fake solution that only deepens economic crisis Social Worker editorial, 12 April 2011
Don't blame Marx for capitalism Colin Barker, Socialist Worker 30 August 2003
Cameron's immigration policy in chaos Yvette Cooper, Labour Party website, 14 April 2011

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RE: That need to embrace change through Marxism. - 4/16/2011 5:36:30 AM   
Aneirin


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Although I do agree with much of what you have written above, I feel this thread will sink like a lead balloon as there are many who will just not even think in any way other than negative when they here the word; socialist.

And that because they have been well educated.


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RE: That need to embrace change through Marxism. - 4/16/2011 9:24:58 AM   
Marini


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Thank you stella, for giving us something interesting to think about, as usual.

I agree many tremble when they hear the words: Marxism and Socialism.

I would not want to live under either complete Marxism or Socialism.

But, as far as I can see, Capitalism is not working well for many people, and the need for most people to give more and more, and deal with less and less is not making a lot of sense to me.

Here in the states we are in a financial CRISIS, and we are expected to do more with less, pay more and we don't even have national health care.

I am not sure what the answer is, but Capitalism with all these well educated MBA's, financial experts, economic experts, experts on top of fucking experts and experting advising the fucking experts, all seem to be sitting back and watching our current system of "CAPITALISM": quickly DETERIORATE.

......I am not even going to get started about outsourcing right now, the hardships on the Middle Class, etc.

Things are clearly getting much worse in the United States with no real end in sight, I still say we are headed towards a serious depression.

Many of the experts on top of fucking experts and the advisors to the damn experts will sort it all out in this wonderful global economy and things will be really great soon!


< Message edited by Marini -- 4/16/2011 9:29:41 AM >


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RE: That need to embrace change through Marxism. - 4/16/2011 11:18:42 AM   
Kirata


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~ FR ~

Claremont Institute for the Study of Statesmanship and Policial Philosophy

Was the tyranny inaugurated in 1917 by Lenin, and later carried on by Stalin, a departure from Marx, or was it actually a predictable political expression of Marx's inherently violent political theory? In a paper originally presented at the 1980 meeting of the American Political Science Association, senior fellow Thomas G. West reminds us that ideas have consequences.

The section on Marx (linked above) won't tax anyone who lasted through the OP.

K.

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RE: That need to embrace change through Marxism. - 4/16/2011 11:22:30 AM   
Marini


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

~ FR ~

Claremont Institute for the Study of Statesmanship and Policial Philosophy

Was the tyranny inaugurated in 1917 by Lenin, and later carried on by Stalin, a departure from Marx, or was it actually a predictable political expression of Marx's inherently violent political theory? In a paper originally presented at the 1980 meeting of the American Political Science Association, senior fellow Thomas G. West reminds us that ideas have consequences.

The section on Marx (linked above) won't tax anyone who lasted through the OP.

K.



Will read the link later, and try to last through it, K.
As much as Capitalism is failing us, at least we are free.
I don't think many people in their right minds, would want straight Marxism or Socialism.
I could be wrong.

Personally, I blame a lot of Capitalism's failure on unbridled corporate greed/and coercion with the government, allowing all these companies to go offshore and gain huge tax advantages, outsourcing, undermining American workers, etc.

Better to try to "fix" Capitalism and change a few things, and get out a lot of the kinks!

< Message edited by Marini -- 4/16/2011 11:26:47 AM >


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RE: That need to embrace change through Marxism. - 4/16/2011 11:35:03 AM   
pahunkboy


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Stella-...   factor in a private central bank.    All the woes flow from that. 

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RE: That need to embrace change through Marxism. - 4/16/2011 1:17:05 PM   
TheRaptorJesus


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If anything is certain, it is that I myself am not a Marxist- Karl Marx.

Just to add to the point expressed that his ideas have been twisted and butchered and then cited to him.

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RE: That need to embrace change through Marxism. - 4/16/2011 1:29:59 PM   
hlen5


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

~ FR ~

Claremont Institute for the Study of Statesmanship and Policial Philosophy

Was the tyranny inaugurated in 1917 by Lenin, and later carried on by Stalin, a departure from Marx, or was it actually a predictable political expression of Marx's inherently violent political theory? In a paper originally presented at the 1980 meeting of the American Political Science Association, senior fellow Thomas G. West reminds us that ideas have consequences.

The section on Marx (linked above) won't tax anyone who lasted through the OP.

K.



Thanks for posting this, Kirata. I think your and Stella's posts would have come in handy on the "Was He a Liberal" thread.

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RE: That need to embrace change through Marxism. - 4/16/2011 2:53:12 PM   
subfever


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Like capitalism, none of the "ism" political philosphies were designed to perpetually accommodate mankind's evolutionary growth. Like it or not, we're currently stuck in an infinite growth monetary-economic paradigm, on a planet with finite resources. This paradigm is simply not sustainable. Those of you who are more observant have already seen cracks in its foundation.

Historic political and economic philosophers never fathomed finite resources. Also, global population has increased about 10-fold over the past century, largely from riding the wave of abundant petroleum energy.

It's time we grow up as a species, and move on to a sustainable system. However, due to prolonged and careful conditioning by those who seek to maintain power and control, we tend to think in terms of treating symptoms instead of focusing on underlying causes. This conditioning is the same reason why we cannot see the folly and futility of our political persuasions.

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RE: That need to embrace change through Marxism. - 4/16/2011 3:31:03 PM   
FullCircle


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Having control is an illusion that people wake up from upon the arrival of their imminent deaths.

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RE: That need to embrace change through Marxism. - 4/16/2011 3:40:00 PM   
Termyn8or


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The problem here Stella is that your posts are usually quite well thought out and I have little or nothing to add.

But I would say what you have done is to describe a class war. Those taking versus those taken from. And it is true that the world's problems reach to the top of the socioeconomic strata, they also reach to the pauper. People play politics in the office, get ahead of the other guy at all cost and many if not most care not if their personal enrichment costs others. It's become hard to actually say for sure whether this has trickled down, or up.

Any form of government can work if not bastardised by people. Communism is wonderful, socialism is wonderful, democratic republics are wonderful. It's people that create the evil, not the form. The form may reward nastiness, or reward altruism for sure, but anyone who really embraces either philosophy is not easily swayed.

This is why I don't believe most of what they say about Chavez. The scumbags running the rest of the world into the ground have international support, Chavez does not. If I get the chance I will visit Venezuela and see for myself, but then I want to see other countries - "approved" countries and see just how things are there as well. What do you think I'll find ? I think when a US sponsored revolution only lasts 48 hours, it means something. What might that be ? It might mean that we've been lied to. Say it ain't so !

Let's say I am dictator. You have a halfway decent idea of how I think. Would I execute those who don't like me ? Would I require the schools be dumbed down so the people are more effectively controlled ? Would I hold strict control of the media and disallow freedom of speech ? Would I send my Citizens to kill and die for the profit of my friends ? All these things have been done in "approved" countries.

It's all in what we see and hear, and that is controlled very tightly and I know how they did it. The chief ingredient is money. It's like instant water, just add water. Those who are successful in the class war want as few as possible to know there even is a war. They want people divided, so they may remain conquered.

You do express it more eloquently than I.

T^T

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RE: That need to embrace change through Marxism. - 4/16/2011 3:44:22 PM   
Edwynn


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FR



quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

~ FR ~

Claremont Institute for the Study of Statesmanship and Policial Philosophy

Was the tyranny inaugurated in 1917 by Lenin, and later carried on by Stalin, a departure from Marx, or was it actually a predictable political expression of Marx's inherently violent political theory? In a paper originally presented at the 1980 meeting of the American Political Science Association, senior fellow Thomas G. West reminds us that ideas have consequences.

The section on Marx (linked above) won't tax anyone who lasted through the OP.

K.







"Was the tyranny inaugurated  in 1917 by Lenin, and later carried on by Stalin .... "


Let's just stop right there.

Saying what was said there only indicates that you understood not the first word of the original post, and all your imagined jocularity as presenting your own post in combination with the snark "for anyone who lasted through the first post."


It is obvious that you were not up to the task mentally, either in the initial post or your own 'contribution.'

You claim to understand the Russian situation from the standpoint of Marxism alone. Both Stella and the person who's article you linked say otherwise. 

There it is right in the first paragraph;

"Is Soviet communism a political movement guided by a radically revolutionary Western philosophical teaching? Or is it better explained as an outgrowth of a native Russian tradition of violent, bureaucratic despotism?"



Reading comprehension. That's your friend.

In any case, that was the conclusion of de Gaulle also, only about 20 years before the idiots elsewhere in the West, but they eventually caught up to that too.

Marxism had as much to do with Russia as Christianity matters to the idiot politicians in the US who reliably get themselves elected by braying that 'belief."








< Message edited by Edwynn -- 4/16/2011 3:48:59 PM >

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RE: That need to embrace change through Marxism. - 4/16/2011 4:17:44 PM   
subfever


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quote:

This is why I don't believe most of what they say about Chavez. The scumbags running the rest of the world into the ground have international support, Chavez does not. If I get the chance I will visit Venezuela and see for myself, but then I want to see other countries - "approved" countries and see just how things are there as well. What do you think I'll find ?


Have you seen Oliver Stone's South of the Border yet?

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RE: That need to embrace change through Marxism. - 4/16/2011 4:22:25 PM   
subfever


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quote:

... Would I require the schools be dumbed down so the people are more effectively controlled ? Would I hold strict control of the media and disallow freedom of speech ? Would I send my Citizens to kill and die for the profit of my friends ? All these things have been done in "approved" countries.

It's all in what we see and hear, and that is controlled very tightly and I know how they did it. The chief ingredient is money. It's like instant water, just add water. Those who are successful in the class war want as few as possible to know there even is a war. They want people divided, so they may remain conquered.


You see the method of maintaining power and control better than most.

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RE: That need to embrace change through Marxism. - 4/16/2011 8:37:17 PM   
provfivetine


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Marxism is simply a metaphysical doctrine, and Karl Marx himself was nothing but a religious eschatologist. His ideas may be worthy of discussion in an academic classroom setting, but anyone who takes them seriously is suffering from profound intellectual confusion.

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RE: That need to embrace change through Marxism. - 4/16/2011 8:48:22 PM   
popeye1250


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I'd like to change a lot of things too, I just wouldn't want to use Marxism as the vehicle to do so.

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RE: That need to embrace change through Marxism. - 4/16/2011 8:51:24 PM   
tweakabelle


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quote:

ORIGINAL: subfever

Like capitalism, none of the "ism" political philosphies were designed to perpetually accommodate mankind's evolutionary growth. Like it or not, we're currently stuck in an infinite growth monetary-economic paradigm, on a planet with finite resources. This paradigm is simply not sustainable. Those of you who are more observant have already seen cracks in its foundation.

Historic political and economic philosophers never fathomed finite resources. Also, global population has increased about 10-fold over the past century, largely from riding the wave of abundant petroleum energy.

It's time we grow up as a species, and move on to a sustainable system. However, due to prolonged and careful conditioning by those who seek to maintain power and control, we tend to think in terms of treating symptoms instead of focusing on underlying causes. This conditioning is the same reason why we cannot see the folly and futility of our political persuasions.


Marxism was developed in 19th century Europe. Let's pause for a moment and try to think what the world looked like then.
Modern Nation States were pretty young. Some (eg Germany, Italy) hadn't even been formed. Empires were all the rage. The USA was still in its formative stages, isolated by geography. Unlike today, the philosophical approach of ideology-as-truth/solution was credible even respectable then.

Europe was the centre of the world. The rest of the world was seen as little more than a big mine populated by savages sometimes noble, sometimes savage. Resources were infinite. Industrialisation was emerging, (steam) machines were at the same stage PCs were at say the 1980s. Life expectancy was half today's, literacy rates quite low too. Science unheard of outside rarefied circles. Universal suffrage was a revolutionary concept in most places.

Marxism may have had some appeal in that world, the same world that gave us early capitalism. Both systems see economics as the primary driver of human development. Both view humans as essentially economic animals. Both offer solutions that essentially rely on the domination and exploitation of Nature, not living with it. Both Marxism and laissez faire/free market economics revolve around the impossible ever-increasing production of wealth, 'sustainable' isn't in their vocabulary.

How relevant is that world to today's world? The assumption of human dominance over Nature is no longer viable or tenable. We have to deal with problems - eg. dwindling finite resources, pollution, waste, climate change, overpopulation - that Marx couldn't conceive of. Does Marxism has any relevance other than a tool for economic analysis? Does any ideology or -ism have anything more than a limited relevance in a post-modern world?

If (and it's a big if) the point is egalitarianism, today's egalitarianism is radically different to the notion that prevailed in 1840s Paris or London, or any concept that prevails in today's corporate boardrooms. My feeling is that we need to look elsewhere for solutions to today's issues.

< Message edited by tweakabelle -- 4/16/2011 8:57:15 PM >


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RE: That need to embrace change through Marxism. - 4/16/2011 8:56:12 PM   
ThatDamnedPanda


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quote:

ORIGINAL: subfever

quote:

... Would I require the schools be dumbed down so the people are more effectively controlled ? Would I hold strict control of the media and disallow freedom of speech ? Would I send my Citizens to kill and die for the profit of my friends ? All these things have been done in "approved" countries.

It's all in what we see and hear, and that is controlled very tightly and I know how they did it. The chief ingredient is money. It's like instant water, just add water. Those who are successful in the class war want as few as possible to know there even is a war. They want people divided, so they may remain conquered.


You see the method of maintaining power and control better than most.


He does, doesn't he? I've always felt he doesn't get anywhere near the credit he deserves for his intellect. People tend to not take him as seriously as they ought to because he's a little rough around the edges, but there's someone living in there, and if you pay attention he's often got a lot to say.


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RE: That need to embrace change through Marxism. - 4/16/2011 9:11:45 PM   
kdsub


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quote:

egalitarian


Well thought out stella and in a utopian world it would have a chance of working. I believe the very fact that you used the word…egalitarian…is the very reason that all attempts of Marxism over the years have failed.

In order for a governing entity to work over time it must seem right to the governed. They must see a way to gain rewards for their labor. If I work harder than you at the same job I should make more money. My training and skills should insure I make a good wage.

Spreading the wealth is at odds with human nature…except in fairy books. It has not worked…it will not work…it is a noble but failed idea.

Butch

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RE: That need to embrace change through Marxism. - 4/16/2011 9:11:56 PM   
Fellow


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quote:

Marxism is simply a metaphysical doctrine, and Karl Marx himself was nothing but a religious eschatologist. His ideas may be worthy of discussion in an academic classroom setting, but anyone who takes them seriously is suffering from profound intellectual confusion.


I do not agree with this statement. Marx  economic theory is widely accepted, and not only in academic setting. The question is how much his treatment of society can be applied to today's economic-social environment? It was developed for early, relatively simple form of capitalism. Marx focused on property and class structure and suggested the ways to change it. I think  the society today is getting simplified with corporatism, appearance of the "super-class", new numerous lumpenproletariat, serfs etc...  and these factors make Marx's ideas popular again. Obama is often called a Marxist. He does not fit the description though. He never attacks private property structure, he did not take any advantage of nationalized banks or car companies. The only thing what he sometimes lets people know he may want (?) is to create more serfs (lower class which minimum survival is supported)  out of lumpenproletariat (low wage temp workers, criminals and such). 

(in reply to provfivetine)
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