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RE: Evolution vs. Religion - 5/9/2011 3:00:08 PM

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And why should the child learn thru any school of hard knocks, to live a ripe old age and die, would they necessarily have missed something of import?

Many bora borans are going to go to their graves, never knowing what a harley davidson is........they will not have lived a life necessarily impared by that bit of learning void.

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RE: Evolution vs. Religion - 5/9/2011 3:07:21 PM

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quote:

And why should the child learn thru any school of hard knocks, to live a ripe old age and die, would they necessarily have missed something of import?

Cause and effect come to mind quickly. As a race... the human one... we enjoy the exploration, the task of looking anf finding our own solutions. For a parent to take that away would seem criminal to many. I am not saying "god" is a parent. But to hold back someone because you can do it for them doesnt make sense to me.

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RE: Evolution vs. Religion - 5/9/2011 7:46:47 PM

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quote:

And your confidence in the depth and breadth of your knowledge far exceeds the facts.

K.

Well, then that makes two of us, pal. (you being the other one, in case you didn't pick up on that)

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RE: Evolution vs. Religion - 5/10/2011 2:58:13 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: lickenforyou
quote:

And your confidence in the depth and breadth of your knowledge far exceeds the facts.

Well, then that makes two of us, pal. (you being the other one, in case you didn't pick up on that)

That was not a general statement, as you have misrepresented it to be here by trimming the quote and adding a period. It was an observation made with respect to the facts about something specific.

Apparently not coincidentally, the statement that appeared before it in the original post addressed a specific instance of intellectual dishonesty. Thank you for providing a second example of the same.

K.

< Message edited by Kirata -- 5/10/2011 3:56:50 AM >

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RE: Evolution vs. Religion - 5/10/2011 4:56:54 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

That was not a general statement, as you have misrepresented it to be here by trimming the quote and adding a period. It was an observation made with respect to the facts about something specific.

Apparently not coincidentally, the statement that appeared before it in the original post addressed a specific instance of intellectual dishonesty. Thank you for providing a second example of the same.

K.

I am glad that you are now agreeing that "trimming the quote" and playing around with punctuation adds up to misrepresentation. You seemed to have the opposite view when I complained above about you doing precisely the same to me.

I trust you won't be doing that to my statements any more.

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RE: Evolution vs. Religion - 5/10/2011 5:18:03 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: eihwaz

quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle
[...] [I]sn't the real issue here the power that flows from holding a monopoly on truth, from being in a position to dictate what counts as truth in the public sphere? Isn't this a contest for power between two competing truth-production discourses/systems?

[...] [I]t’s about social and political power that flows from being in a position to pronounce Truth, to control the discourses and knowledges circulating in the public sphere.

Agreed, and very well put! These issues are much more significant -- and even urgent -- for human society, then the question of the existence of God which, in this context, is irrelevant (although it can be great fun to debate!).

Yes. The subjective nature of, and the relativity of truth (as you outlined in detail previously) it does make trying to determine the existence of deities rather pointless doesn't it! Except of course on the most personal and intimate of levels - the inner sphere of the 'spiritual'.

And yes, you are so correct to point out that this debate obscures much more important issues in the here and now. It could make an astute observer wonder if that's the whole point of religions' public operations .....

All this seems to me that seems to consign religions to the sphere of the personal. Whenever they emerge into the public sphere, it's going to be difficult to distinguish the (social and political) power operations from the more 'religious' aspects of religions.

Does Marx ("religion is the opium of the masses") get the last laugh? I can just picture him chortling in his grave, saying to himself "Jawohl! I managed to get one thing right!"

< Message edited by tweakabelle -- 5/10/2011 5:20:32 AM >

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RE: Evolution vs. Religion - 5/10/2011 5:36:45 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

I am glad that you are now agreeing that "trimming the quote" and playing around with punctuation adds up to misrepresentation. You seemed to have the opposite view when I complained above about you doing precisely the same to me.

It only adds up to misrepresentation if it adds up to misrepresentation. The fact that you complain about something does not automatically make the complaint factual. It does, however, serve as a convenient way to divert attention from an irrational argument. But since you have chosen to repeat your accusation, please allow me to repeat my answer: Bullshit.

Thank you for your time.

K.

< Message edited by Kirata -- 5/10/2011 5:48:30 AM >

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RE: Evolution vs. Religion - 5/10/2011 6:41:15 AM

Rule

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quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle
It is irrational to believe in something whose existence cannot be demonstrated rationally. By definition.

So?

It all depends where one is coming from. I arrived at the existence of the Divine both rationally in combination with super-genius / divine inspiration, and in another way by personal experience. Personal experience of course is irrational from the perspective of any other being - except those who have had a similar personal experience.

It is one thing to be irrational and wrong.
It is quite another thing to be irrational and right.

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RE: Evolution vs. Religion - 5/10/2011 10:37:50 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rule

What is scientific about that flash of brilliance?

Of course one needs to be knowledgeable in the field. Duh! That is a given. My point is that there used to be hundreds and even thousands and hundreds of thousands of scientists all quite accomplished in the scientific methods of their day who never discovered such things as calculus and the theory of evolution. Why is that if the scientific method is such a splendid algorithm?

You seem to be arguing about a point I never made. I never said that the scientific method was the source of ideas. What I said was that it is the method by which we sort out the brilliant ideas from the bonkers ones. Societies don't decide which scientific theories to pursue (or teach) based on what sounds good. They decide based on which can be shown to be the most plausible. And since scientific advancement constantly builds on what went before, this would be severely hampered without the calculations and reasoning that proof those flashes of brilliance.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rule

quote:

ORIGINAL: paulmcuk
That's exactly my point. People may have had the ideas, but the only ones you or I will know about are those who applied the scientific method and proved it to both themselves and others. Peter the Miller may have looked up in the sky in 1242 and thought, "Yeah, that's how celestial motion must work", but we've never heard of him because an idea is just an idea until proven.

I bet you meet and recognize such people on every street corner. (Actually I somehow strongly doubt that you do so.)

Well considering I said that NONE of us ever know about these people...

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rule

Oh humbug. They simply absorbed the necessary information and subsequently solved the problem in about five seconds. A really tough problem may take twenty minutes. (And only very infrequently there is one that resists being solved.) It was only afterward that they had to package it in such a way that lesser people would accept their discovery.

Codswallop.

(in reply to Rule)

RE: Evolution vs. Religion - 5/10/2011 11:03:21 AM

Rule

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quote:

ORIGINAL: paulmcuk
What I said was that it is the method by which we sort out the brilliant ideas from the bonkers ones.

Then tell them scientific methoders to get off their lazy behinds. Black holes, dark matter, the hypothesis of general relativity, exoplanets, a Big Bang: they are all bonkers ideas. Why is your scientific method unable to demonstrate that? I will tell you why: because it cannot.

quote:

ORIGINAL: paulmcuk
Well considering I said that NONE of us ever know about these people...

Or your premisse is wrong. Did you ever consider that?

quote:

ORIGINAL: paulmcuk

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rule
Oh humbug. They simply absorbed the necessary information and subsequently solved the problem in about five seconds. A really tough problem may take twenty minutes. (And only very infrequently there is one that resists being solved.) It was only afterward that they had to package it in such a way that lesser people would accept their discovery.

Codswallop.

Tsk. Unlike you, I know what I am talking about.

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RE: Evolution vs. Religion - 5/10/2011 11:54:20 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rule
It is one thing to be irrational and wrong.
It is quite another thing to be irrational and right.

Neither can be proven by an objective observer, so what exactly is the difference you're claiming here?
(This should be good. Sadly it won't stop you blathering a load of half baked nonsense about genetics as though you have a clue what you're talking about...)

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RE: Evolution vs. Religion - 5/10/2011 11:57:50 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rule
Then tell them scientific methoders to get off their lazy behinds. Black holes, dark matter, the hypothesis of general relativity, exoplanets, a Big Bang: they are all bonkers ideas. Why is your scientific method unable to demonstrate that? I will tell you why: because it cannot.

I posted a link to NASA's mathematical proof of the bits of general relativity relating to gravity being a product of mass back in post 632.

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RE: Evolution vs. Religion - 5/11/2011 6:39:54 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

I am glad that you are now agreeing that "trimming the quote" and playing around with punctuation adds up to misrepresentation. You seemed to have the opposite view when I complained above about you doing precisely the same to me.

It only adds up to misrepresentation if it adds up to misrepresentation. The fact that you complain about something does not automatically make the complaint factual. It does, however, serve as a convenient way to divert attention from an irrational argument. But since you have chosen to repeat your accusation, please allow me to repeat my answer: Bullshit.

Thank you for your time.

K.

I understand what you are saying.

It's only misrepresentation if someone else does it to you. But if you do precisely the same thing, it's not misrepresentation, it's something else.

I see ....... thanks for the clarification.

< Message edited by tweakabelle -- 5/11/2011 6:45:54 PM >

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RE: Evolution vs. Religion - 5/12/2011 5:30:00 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

I am glad that you are now agreeing that "trimming the quote" and playing around with punctuation adds up to misrepresentation. You seemed to have the opposite view when I complained above about you doing precisely the same to me.

It only adds up to misrepresentation if it adds up to misrepresentation. The fact that you complain about something does not automatically make the complaint factual. It does, however, serve as a convenient way to divert attention from an irrational argument. But since you have chosen to repeat your accusation, please allow me to repeat my answer: Bullshit.

Thank you for your time.

K.

I understand what you are saying.

It's only misrepresentation if someone else does it to you. But if you do precisely the same thing, it's not misrepresentation, it's something else.

I see ....... thanks for the clarification.

Glad that's cleared up. Now are you ever going to tell us where all these children and addicts are being abused at those religious institutions they are being forced to attend? I remember you complaining about it, but I don't remember you ever telling us where it is happening.

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RE: Evolution vs. Religion - 5/12/2011 5:46:34 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: thishereboi\

Glad that's cleared up. Now are you ever going to tell us where all these children and addicts are being abused at those religious institutions they are being forced to attend? I remember you complaining about it, but I don't remember you ever telling us where it is happening.

Poor thing you - your memory mightn't be everything it could be.

In my first post mentioning the matter you find so difficult, I listed one or two institutions by name. As I recall you responded to that post. Seems like you've forgotten it all ..... tut! not an encouraging sign that.

Perhaps you now have some insight into why I give your posts and complaints all the consideration they deserve. Sayonara!

< Message edited by tweakabelle -- 5/12/2011 5:52:32 AM >

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RE: Evolution vs. Religion - 5/12/2011 5:50:33 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

quote:

ORIGINAL: thishereboi\

Glad that's cleared up. Now are you ever going to tell us where all these children and addicts are being abused at those religious institutions they are being forced to attend? I remember you complaining about it, but I don't remember you ever telling us where it is happening.

Poor thing you - your memory mightn't be everything it could be.

In my first post mentioning the matter you find so difficult, I listed one or two institutions by name. As I recall you responded to that post. Seems like you've forgotten it all ..... tut! not an encouraging sign that.

Perhaps you now have some insight into why I give your posts and complaints all the consideration they deserve.

You told us where they were forcing children to attend religious schools and forcing addicts into religious treatment centers and then abusing them? Maybe a link would help, because I really don't remember that.

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RE: Evolution vs. Religion - 5/12/2011 7:30:22 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

I understand what you are saying. It's only misrepresentation if someone else does it to you.

Unh... that is a misrepresentation of what my post said.

K.

(in reply to tweakabelle)

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