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RE: How could I have handled this better? - 4/23/2011 12:27:18 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: cloudboy

Literal BDSM logic holds that everything that goes wrong is the submissive's fault. Arguably everything the Mistress or Master wants, the sub should grant or they are not being submissive.

That's so funny because in my mind, whatever goes wrong is the fault of the person in charge. Of course if the follower presents false information, then the leader can't make an informed choice. Other than that? You want to be in charge and get the kudos when things go right? You better be willing to take responsibility when they go south.

best,
sunshine

_____________________________

Yes, I am a wonton hussy... and still sweet as 3.14

(in reply to cloudboy)

RE: How could I have handled this better? - 4/23/2011 1:24:20 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: sunshinemiss

That's so funny because in my mind, whatever goes wrong is the fault of the person in charge.

Yeah! Like dancing - general consensus it's 'always the man's fault', even though the women inevitably apologise profusely when they can't follow whatever vague/overcomplicated/unexpected move the lead chose that caused them to go wrong.

_____________________________

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RE: How could I have handled this better? - 4/24/2011 12:55:47 PM

MistressDarkArt

Posts: 5178
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Yet another case where 'Get It In Writing' would have been a good idea, if only for your validation. I am a big proponent of requiring written bdsm checklists of my partners before engaging in play. If my sub wants one from me too he is welcome to it. If there is more than one partner involved, we all exchange them so we're sure we're all on the same page. Checklists can open lines of communication that are sometimes difficult to talk about in a face-to-face conversation and help to solidify expectations. While I think your Domme was being unreasonable insisting you break a hard limit, wouldn't it have been nice to respectfully show her the completed checklist she would have agreed to before play?

On another note, I don't know what other dominants do but I insist on barrier use for any type of penetrative play...oral, anal, vaginal...absolutely no bodily fluids exchanged, even saliva. Partners are allowed to ingest or be injected with their own fluids and I also employ a few safe and harmless smoke-and-mirrors techniques that simulate ejaculate where that is appropriate. This measure of safety (and perhaps the idea of a physical barrier) has helped some of my partners 'make the crossing' to activities that were previously hard limits. Safe play is everyone's responsibility.

< Message edited by MistressDarkArt -- 4/24/2011 1:16:26 PM >

(in reply to HannahLynHeather)

RE: How could I have handled this better? - 4/24/2011 3:57:51 PM

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Sunny
Quote of the Day
goes to
MistressDarkArt

for

Safe play is everyone's responsibility.

http://www.collarchat.com/m_3643297/mpage_3/tm.htm

_____________________________

Yes, I am a wonton hussy... and still sweet as 3.14

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RE: How could I have handled this better? - 4/26/2011 10:37:21 PM

Posts: 2400
Joined: 6/27/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: cloudboy
Literal BDSM logic holds that everything that goes wrong is the submissive's fault.

My logic in BDSM and beyond is that whatever goes wrong is the fault of the other person ;-)

OP, I agree that what the domme in question did was emotional blackmail and the question of how to handle it better applies more to her. I am unsure whether you could have done anything differently. From details given in the OP, it doesn't seem like it was a matter of effective communication. The only other point I can raise is to examine why a limit is a limit, which can help communicate why it is a limit, or, perhaps, help overcome it.

Cheers,

Sea

(in reply to cloudboy)

RE: How could I have handled this better? - 4/29/2011 10:44:05 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: HannahLynHeather

my last relationship ended over a very similar sort of thing. my mistress decided that i would submit to her boyfriend as well as her. well i don't submit to men, that's a hard limit. i'll have sex with them, sure, but not submit*. i told her no. well she started with the same sort of bullshit yours did. i thanked her for 3 good years, packed my few belongings, got in my car and left. from the time she broached the subject till i drove out of the driveway was about 1-1/2 hours. my hard limits are there for a reason, and i won't stand for them being pushed.

hannah lynn

*don't ask, just assume its different, controversial, somewhat confusing and bound to piss a bunch of you off.

This is the best way to handle a situation like the op's. Mention it once, say no, mention it again, say have a good life.

if this person does not respect you enough to honor your limits, they don't deserve anything from you, and are not worth one second of further anything.

(in reply to HannahLynHeather)

RE: How could I have handled this better? - 4/29/2011 11:19:49 AM

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I would have to agree with many here that it sounds like she is putting a guilt trip on you. And like DarkSteve pointed out your emotional well being wasn't a concern because of her pushing too heard on your limits.

(in reply to ChatteParfaitt)

RE: How could I have handled this better? - 5/4/2011 7:51:11 AM

DommeKeliDallas

Posts: 311
Joined: 1/27/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: JBondage

A while back my Mistress decided that she wanted to see me suck a cock. Before I even started playing with her this had been discussed and it was a hard limit for me. But as time progressed she decided that it was something that I should do if it made her happy. I continued to refuse and she continued to push the subject until I relented and told her I would. Well when push came to shove I could not do it and it spoiled a scene she had gone to great lengths to prepare. We went down hill from there and eventually parted ways.

She made the following arguments to convince me:

It was her responsibility as my Domme to push my limits so I could grow and become what she wanted me to be.

It was my responsibility to make her happy and this would give her much pleasure. My refusal to do this reflected poorly on her and I should think more about her pleasure then my limits.

I should never have agreed to this but at the time saw no other way as I did truly want to make her happy. She grew more distant the more I refused so I felt that I would lose her If I did not do as she asked.

So should I have stood my guns and continued to say no?

Don't get mixed up with idiots.
You did the right thing.

(in reply to JBondage)

RE: How could I have handled this better? - 5/4/2011 1:16:29 PM

Posts: 1511
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LadyPact,

quote:

I happen to be one of those folks who enjoy this kind of play. I know this will probably go over poorly, but not every person has this limit carved in stone. While I probably wouldn't have pushed the OP to the extent that it seems, I'm not going to say that every person I have dealt with said no and eventually said yes.

I've had my hard limits pushed in ways that were positive by some and in ways that were negative by others. To me, it all depends on the nature of communication, how a dominant inspires me to reconsider, and my own feelings as I consider new information and feelings. Usually, anything of this sort takes time to process so short circuiting this isn't a good approach and is likely to force me into saying a hard "no". I've been in situations where I said to a Domme I'd try something, but, when we came to that thing, I was unable to continue.

I'm usually pretty clear when agreeing to have my limits pushed (hard or soft) that I'll try, but I'm just as clear that such an agreement does not include a guarantee of how my feelings and performance will be in the moment. In other words, if I need to say "no" in the moment, this is part of the agreement and my exercising this isn't failure. There have been times it has taken several attempts (needle play comes to mind) before I was able to experience an activity. Other times the process has resulted in a more cemented belief that the activity isn't right for me. And, sometimes I try an activity I didn't think I could do and immediately find it enjoyable.

Much of the "enabling" factor is a result of how a dominant handles my concerns. Acknowledging my concerns and talking about them is a great way to provide comfort and to get me reconsidering an activity. It's also helpful when my domme discusses what she likes about an activity and why the activity turns her on, and helps me find resources to learn about the activity. The flip side of this is when someone outright ignores my feelings when I've indicated that going to a certain place is psychologically damaging for me. When this happens, it's a good indication that communication and compatibility issues exist, and these need to be discussed outside the activity that brought them about.

(in reply to LadyPact)

RE: How could I have handled this better? - 5/4/2011 1:21:37 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rochsub2009

BTW, thanks for sharing, Lady Pact. One of the things that has often frustrated me about the message boards on CM is that we seldom share our personal experiences. Everyone seems to be so reluctant about providing wank material, that we never share details about what we actually do and enjoy. So this exchange has been appreciated.

You're welcome. Every once in a while, I pull out the good memories. Lol.

I want to say thank you, LP, for the memories.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to LadyPact)

RE: How could I have handled this better? - 5/4/2011 1:59:39 PM

DommeKeliDallas

Posts: 311
Joined: 1/27/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: ChatteParfaitt

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact

I happen to be one of those folks who enjoy this kind of play. I know this will probably go over poorly, but not every person has this limit carved in stone.

While I probably wouldn't have pushed the OP to the extent that it seems. I'm not going to say that every person I have dealt with said no and eventually said yes.

Not every men is a cocksucker...thank God.

I enjoy it as well, and have found this is a limit that can often be pushed, in the course of time.

Actually, I think it's possible the OP might have been able to move in that direction, had the "domme" handled it better.

(in reply to ChatteParfaitt)

RE: How could I have handled this better? - 5/4/2011 2:04:49 PM

Posts: 1511
Status: offline

JBondage,

quote:

So should I have stood my guns and continued to say no?

I think the answer to this question isn't black and white, and also happens to be contained in your test, as follows.

quote:

I should never have agreed to this but at the time saw no other way as I did truly want to make her happy. She grew more distant the more I refused so I felt that I would lose her if I did not do as she asked.[quote/]

Though I don't necessarily disagree with it, I'm going to sidestep the "emotional blackmail" discussion. I just want to underline that based on how you valued your partner, you tried the best you could to address her desires. This is commendable. Sometimes, as seems to be the case here, situations reveal things about our partners and these become significant compatibility issues. It's possible your partner misled you initially, but it is just as possible that your partner tried to live without a desire and realized she couldn't be happy without this.

I think there is significantly more value in using this experience to help establish what is right for you in moving forward with another partner than in considering what you could have done differently. Based on what you've written in the OP, by my BDSM playbook, you handled the situation gracefully and as best you could.

Something you might consider is whether the activity (cock sucking) is indeed still a hard limit or whether this particular partner's approach caused your negative reactions. I've had hard limits pushed and sometimes (not always) my ability to find enjoyment has depended very much on the approach used by different dominants. I now have items on my favourite activities list that used to be hard limits. I do not mean soft limits that became favourites. Rather, I literally mean hard limits that became favourites. It was a very powerful experience to learn that sometimes a partner's approach, understanding, feedback, encouragement, and rewards (in the sense of positive, loving support) can make all the difference. However, I'll also say that with certain hard limits, it doesn't matter what a partner's approach is because the answer will always be no, and I think this is just fine.

Learning about yourself isn't always the easiest process and I think the best you can do is to communicate honestly and openly with your partner, and, within reason, to bring a spirit of compromise to negotiations. There is no relationship that functions outside the domain of compromise and this is just as true of BDSM relationships as it is of vanilla relationships. There will be places where partners are unwilling to compromise or simply cannot compromise. Perhaps cock sucking truly needs to remain on your hard limits list. On the other hand, I encourage you to be cautious of allowing one dominant's approach to taint your considerations. Only you know what is right for you and whether a different approach might cause a different response.

(in reply to JBondage)

RE: How could I have handled this better? - 5/4/2011 5:25:38 PM

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JBondage,

Oops. Got the quote tags mismatched! Here's the same text split apart correctly, for easier reading. While re-posting, I corrected a few typos too. :-)

quote:

So should I have stood my guns and continued to say no?

I think the answer to this question isn't black and white, and also happens to be contained in your text, as follows.

quote:

I should never have agreed to this but at the time saw no other way as I did truly want to make her happy. She grew more distant the more I refused so I felt that I would lose her if I did not do as she asked.

Though I don't necessarily disagree with it, I'm going to sidestep the "emotional blackmail" discussion. I just want to underline that based on what you described, it seems you valued your partner enough such that you addressed her desires as best you could. This is commendable. Sometimes, as seems to be the case here, situations reveal things about our partners and these become significant compatibility issues. It's possible your partner misled you initially, but it is just as possible that your partner tried to live minus one of her primary kinks and realized she couldn't be happy without this.

I think there is significantly more value in using this experience to help establish what is right for you in moving forward with another partner than in considering what you could have done differently. Based on what you've written in the OP, by my BDSM playbook, you handled the situation gracefully and as best you could.

Something you might consider is whether the activity (cock sucking) is indeed still a hard limit or whether this specific partner's approach caused your negative reactions. I've had hard limits pushed and sometimes (not always) my ability to find enjoyment has depended very much on the approach used by different dominants. I now have items on my favourite activities list that used to be hard limits. I do not mean soft limits that became favourites. Rather, I literally mean hard limits that became favourites. It was a very powerful experience to learn that sometimes a partner's approach, understanding, feedback, encouragement, and rewards (in the sense of positive, loving support) can make all the difference. However, I'll also say that with certain hard limits, it doesn't matter what a partner's approach is because the answer will always be no, and I think this is just fine.

Learning about yourself isn't always the easiest process and I think the best you can do is to communicate honestly and openly with your partner, and, within reason, to bring a spirit of compromise to negotiations. There is no relationship that functions outside the domain of compromise and this is just as true of BDSM relationships as it is of vanilla relationships. There will be places where partners are unwilling to compromise or simply cannot compromise. Perhaps cock sucking truly needs to remain on your hard limits list. On the other hand, I encourage you to be cautious of allowing one dominant's approach to taint your considerations. Only you know what is right for you and whether a different approach might cause a different response.

Elan.

< Message edited by ElanSubdued -- 5/4/2011 5:32:08 PM >

(in reply to ElanSubdued)

RE: How could I have handled this better? - 5/7/2011 3:30:46 AM

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Joined: 12/2/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: JBondage

So should I have stood my guns and continued to say no?

Yes. A hard limit is a hard limit. Soft limits are there to be pushed. Hard limits are there to be respected. She needs to go back to Domme school and learn her parameters.

(in reply to JBondage)

RE: How could I have handled this better? - 5/7/2011 3:19:21 PM

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From: Upstate New York
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There's a reason they are called hard limits. If she didn't like that the cock sucking was a hard limit she should have not invited you to become her submissive.

Personally, I feel like you should have dropped her like a hot rock when she showed her lack of respect for you as a person in pushing beyond what your stated hard limits were.

_____________________________

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~outRAGEous~

I don't always return to a thread. It's usually best to message your replies directly to me.

(in reply to JBondage)

RE: How could I have handled this better? - 5/7/2011 6:02:10 PM

seekingOwnertoo

Posts: 1323
Joined: 8/1/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: JBondage

So should I have stood my guns and continued to say no?

Honestly, I cannot answer your question. And there is a reason.

I don't know the depth of the relationship, or what the mental and emotional interaction between the two of you was, or is.

That said, I also have this as a hard limit.

Yet I have learned ... that IF ... I am really into a Lady, then it is possible the hard limits can be reduced to ... children, illegal activites etc.

Basically because I want to please Her so much ... I just can't say no!

So here is my take on your situation.

You did not have a deep enough, or emotionally mature enough, relationship for her to test hard limits.

I say this because, as some have said before me, she would not have withdrawn affection over this.

Instead, she would have pushed you ever so subtly and slowly ... closer and closer ... until you went over the edge for her!

If this had happened, then I would assume you both shared a deep mental and emotional connection.

And you would still be happy together.

(in reply to JBondage)

RE: How could I have handled this better? - 5/7/2011 8:29:02 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ElanSubdued

LadyPact,

I've had my hard limits pushed in ways that were positive by some and in ways that were negative by others. To me, it all depends on the nature of communication, how a dominant inspires me to reconsider, and my own feelings as I consider new information and feelings. Usually, anything of this sort takes time to process so short circuiting this isn't a good approach and is likely to force me into saying a hard "no". I've been in situations where I said to a Domme I'd try something, but, when we came to that thing, I was unable to continue.

I happen to agree with you here. I don't know if you'll remember this one, but years ago, we had a thread on something similar. The Domme wanted her sub to break the same hard limit so she set it up as a public party thing. She made this big production of the deal and then got ticked because the guy couldn't do it. I remember sitting on My side of the screen thinking just how poorly I thought of the approach.

quote:

I'm usually pretty clear when agreeing to have my limits pushed (hard or soft) that I'll try, but I'm just as clear that such an agreement does not include a guarantee of how my feelings and performance will be in the moment. In other words, if I need to say "no" in the moment, this is part of the agreement and my exercising this isn't failure. There have been times it has taken several attempts (needle play comes to mind) before I was able to experience an activity. Other times the process has resulted in a more cemented belief that the activity isn't right for me. And, sometimes I try an activity I didn't think I could do and immediately find it enjoyable.

My standard procedure in this area goes something like this: If I agree to take someone on who has hard limit X, I should accept the possibility that it might always be a hard limit. Yes, I might get that activity later on if a deeper trust has evolved and progress has been made. The other possibility that I might never get it is just as real and I accepted the submissive with those terms and conditions. That's the deal that I've made and I have to be willing to live up to it if the limit doesn't change for the submissive.

quote:

Much of the "enabling" factor is a result of how a dominant handles my concerns. Acknowledging my concerns and talking about them is a great way to provide comfort and to get me reconsidering an activity. It's also helpful when my domme discusses what she likes about an activity and why the activity turns her on, and helps me find resources to learn about the activity. The flip side of this is when someone outright ignores my feelings when I've indicated that going to a certain place is psychologically damaging for me. When this happens, it's a good indication that communication and compatibility issues exist, and these need to be discussed outside the activity that brought them about.

We've talked about this one before, I think. What I highlighted here is usually a very safe way to introduce any subject for the submissive to start rolling over thoughts in their own mind. This can be done in a very non-threatening way. Very much like has been done in this thread, such as talking about past experiences, etc without any pressure for a person to engage in the activities. Case in point, I know you're not thrilled with needles (or weren't at one time) but you're open enough for Me to talk with you about the rush that I get from needles. That really is what gets the process going. In fact, that's exactly how clip and I started the process for him to get passed his limit in that area. It wasn't an overnight process, but it was certainly worth the investment.

_____________________________

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Beach Ball Sized Lady Nuts. ~ TWD

Happily dating a new submissive. It's official. I've named him engie.

Please do not send me email here. Unless I know you, I will delete the email unread

(in reply to ElanSubdued)

RE: How could I have handled this better? - 5/9/2011 12:19:24 AM

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I would find the situation very hot ONLY if BOTH males involved were into doing it. That doesn't mean they have to both be ultra experienced at it, only that both were willing to give it a go for Me, and that the rules of engagement were well understood by all. Those being safety (of course), and that goes for emotional as well as physical safety, and that if either wants to stop, they can do so and no penalty for that. No guilt tripping, disappointment dramas, or punishment, just "hey thanks, I so admire that you gave it a go, come and give Me a kiss".

As far as limits go, I will push soft limits carefully ... hard limits only if the sub indicates that their stance has changed and that limit is not as hard as it once was. And absolutely not through guilt-tripping as was done in JB's case. As has been explained, there are so many better ways that this Domme could have handled the situation.

JB, I believe you can hold your head up high in that you were honest about your limits, and then you gave it your best try. Your next Domme will be lucky to have you!

Maam Jay aka violet[A]

_____________________________

Life is a song ... and I love singing it! (By me!)

(in reply to LadyPact)

RE: How could I have handled this better? - 5/14/2011 6:18:57 AM

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Joined: 10/28/2007
Status: offline

I myself have had several hard limits obliterated over time, so I think pushing them (respectfully) is a fine idea. Hitting of any kind would be a prime example. After an abusive marriage it was an absolute no-no, but over time and with the right person it became something I was able to overcome. He started by having me spank MYSELF. While it felt silly, it wasn't scary at all, and the transition to a few light swats was pretty easy. Now I beg for spankings and love belts and crops. I'm proud of having shed that limitation, and now there is something else that I get pleasure from, so I am grateful that that and some other hard limits were not completely left alone but slowly and masterfully eroded.

~faith

(in reply to MaamJay)

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