Questions for the Atheists

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maybemaybenot -> Questions for the Atheists (4/28/2011 5:05:29 PM)
The other day I was listening to a radio program that had Jason Torpy as the guest. He is the President of a website called Militaryatheists.org. He was very interesting, but I just can't wrap my head around his mission. I looked at the website and Googled it and have a link below from a NYT article recently written about this. In a nutshell he wants to have atheist chaplains in the military, he calls them Humanist Chaplains. By definition a Chaplain is one who belongs to a certain faith and prays. Given that atheists are faithless and don't pray I don't see how an atheist can call themselves a chaplain. It seems completly opposite of their belief system. < for lack of better wording > I don't understand why an atheist would want a " chaplain " since it goes against everything they think. Appointing some one as Head Honcho of Atheism, imo, makes it an organized non religion. Most atheists I know depise the organized part of religion, yet this man wants to organize atheists under the guise of Chaplainhood. It seems to me their is some alterior motive behind this, but I can't think of what it might be. So my questions are : Would you, as an atheist, seek out a chaplain of atheism and if so what would you go to him/her about ? What role do you see an atheist chaplian playing in the Military or in society in general and do you think there is a need for one. What criteria/education would one need to become a Humanist Chaplain. Seems to me it would just be some atheist who wants the job. I know of no degrees or certificates you can get in " atheism". I really don't have any hard and fast opinion on this one. The only thing that kinda bugs me is that by definition an atheist could never be a Chaplain. And some may say we have progressed and their is a need for one. OK, why the use of the word chaplain. If we are going to change the definition of the English language we could find someone who wants to call a squirrel a dog and enter him in the dog show and make a sound arguement for that. I'll be interested in hearing CM's atheists opinions and insights on this. http://www.nytimes.com/2011/04/27/us/27atheists.html?_r=1 mbmbn

Tantriqu -> RE: Questions for the Atheists (4/28/2011 5:43:05 PM)
I've been an atheist since a teenager, and a humanist since my early 20's. A lot of religious people are the most intolerant closet-law-breakers, so I have admired the humanism of a very small minority of religious people; one nun in particular. What I object to is the inherent racism of religion, that people are led to believe their imaginary beliefs are better than others. And why should people who believe in zombie jesus get tax breaks, while people who believe in mankind don't? As for word origin, 'chaplain' comes either from capella, a tent, very fitting for an army chaplain, or capa, a cape sold by a snake-oil salesman of religious relics to some rube by saying it had been worn by a catholic bishop in 367 AD. So are you saying a protestant or jew can't be a chaplain because hundreds of years ago some catholic king prayed on a battlefield to the equivalent of a mass-produced plastic dashboard jesus? And if a protestant or jew can be a chaplain, why not a humanist? Nowadays, chaplains give comfort to the stressed and distressed. So if truly good, smart people could be allowed to deliver a humanist message without the inherent racism, i.e., doing good for the sake of doing good, not for imaginary afterlife mitvahs only if you do it for your own race: fabulous. So good luck to the soldier who would like to speak to a humanist rather than a racist.

TheHeretic -> RE: Questions for the Atheists (4/28/2011 6:02:35 PM)
Based on how you are using the word "racism" in your post, my faith in the rest of your efforts at definition is pretty much non-existent. To the OP question, if such a person is a non-theistic counselor and advisor, and still capable of appropriately performing the duties of a chaplain, why not? If it's the common definition of an atheist, "angry at their parents, but taking it out on God," then no.

PeonForHer -> RE: Questions for the Atheists (4/28/2011 6:10:07 PM)
Would this have anything to do with a lack of counsellors in the military? I could imagine that the average, troubled, serviceman or woman might have little recourse to help other than that provided by medics, psychiatrists (who won't deal with non-serious psychological problems) or the standard, religious kinds of chaplains. I've had a sense that an old, very conservative attitude prevails in the militaries of many countries: that if you don't have a fighting problem, a medical problem or a religious problem, you don't have any problems that merit any major concern.

Owner59 -> RE: Questions for the Atheists (4/28/2011 6:16:45 PM)
To Tantriqu: How aweful......I bet dick has just ruined your day. To dick: Their opinion is quit valid and their own. Some of the worst homo-phobia comes from religion(s). And your drug of choice,Islamaphobia, has it`s roots,fertilizer and propagation in the church.

PeonForHer -> RE: Questions for the Atheists (4/28/2011 6:20:32 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: TheHeretic If it's the common definition of an atheist, "angry at their parents, but taking it out on God," then no. My faith in anyone who defines atheism in that way would be even less than non-existent, if that were possible. Hmmm. But in saying that, a good counsellor has experience at dealing with of the problems with which he or she is trying to help people. Just like a good climbing instructor has had experience at the problems climbers might face. So, an atheist who's experienced 'anger at God' - yep, that could actually be beneficial. I'd imagine that there are a fair few members of the military who feel anger at God.

maybemaybenot -> RE: Questions for the Atheists (4/28/2011 6:20:58 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: TheHeretic To the OP question, if such a person is a non-theistic counselor and advisor, and still capable of appropriately performing the duties of a chaplain, why not? If it's the common definition of an atheist, "angry at their parents, but taking it out on God," then no. From what I have read and heard from Jason Trophy, the Humanist Chaplain would not have any role or duties of what we now call a chaplain. S/he would not conduct services, pray or anything like that. If someone came to the humanist chaplain for that, the humanist would re direct him to the appropriate faithed chaplain. A non theist counsilor or advisor? Sure, hell yea, why not ? Why not call him/her exactly that ? mbmbn

PeonForHer -> RE: Questions for the Atheists (4/28/2011 6:22:48 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: maybemaybenot A non theist counsilor or advisor? Sure, hell yea, why not ? Why not call him/her exactly that ? Maybe because there's a stigma about seeing counsellors in the military.

maybemaybenot -> RE: Questions for the Atheists (4/28/2011 6:25:23 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Tantriqu I've been an atheist since a teenager, and a humanist since my early 20's. A lot of religious people are the most intolerant closet-law-breakers, so I have admired the humanism of a very small minority of religious people; one nun in particular. What I object to is the inherent racism of religion, that people are led to believe their imaginary beliefs are better than others. And why should people who believe in zombie jesus get tax breaks, while people who believe in mankind don't? As for word origin, 'chaplain' comes either from capella, a tent, very fitting for an army chaplain, or capa, a cape sold by a snake-oil salesman of religious relics to some rube by saying it had been worn by a catholic bishop in 367 AD. So are you saying a protestant or jew can't be a chaplain because hundreds of years ago some catholic king prayed on a battlefield to the equivalent of a mass-produced plastic dashboard jesus? And if a protestant or jew can be a chaplain, why not a humanist? Nowadays, chaplains give comfort to the stressed and distressed. So if truly good, smart people could be allowed to deliver a humanist message without the inherent racism, i.e., doing good for the sake of doing good, not for imaginary afterlife mitvahs only if you do it for your own race: fabulous. So good luck to the soldier who would like to speak to a humanist rather than a racist. The origin of the word Chaplain is not as simple as " tent ". It is rooted in religion, it's origin is not just any old pup tent. http://orthodoxwiki.org/Chaplain I am not saying anything. I presented questions, to which no one has answered and I voiced where I am having trouble grasping it.

PeonForHer -> RE: Questions for the Atheists (4/28/2011 6:27:50 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: maybemaybenot I am not saying anything. I presented questions, to which no one has answered and I voiced where I am having trouble grasping it. Eh? I gave you an answer. Why are you have trouble seeing it?

maybemaybenot -> RE: Questions for the Atheists (4/28/2011 6:29:59 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: PeonForHer quote: ORIGINAL: maybemaybenot A non theist counsilor or advisor? Sure, hell yea, why not ? Why not call him/her exactly that ? Maybe because there's a stigma about seeing counsellors in the military. I do understand that Peon. But the term non theist advisor/ counsilor would work, I think. He or she would not be in the psychiatric division of the military, but in the religious division. So going to the Humanist or non theist cousilor would be equal to going to the Priest, Rabbi, Minister etc. Just a my thoughts. mbmbn

maybemaybenot -> RE: Questions for the Atheists (4/28/2011 6:33:20 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: PeonForHer quote: ORIGINAL: maybemaybenot I am not saying anything. I presented questions, to which no one has answered and I voiced where I am having trouble grasping it. Eh? I gave you an answer. Why are you have trouble seeing it? You jumped too early.[;)] I was writing a response to you. I'm a slow typer. But the questions I was referring to in my response to Tantriqu are in the OP: snip : So my questions are : Would you, as an atheist, seek out a chaplain of atheism and if so what would you go to him/her about ? What role do you see an atheist chaplian playing in the Military or in society in general and do you think there is a need for one. What criteria/education would one need to become a Humanist Chaplain. Seems to me it would just be some atheist who wants the job. I know of no degrees or certificates you can get in " atheism". I may not get answers to that and that's OK. I'm really just looking to see where I can fit the square peg in the round hole. mbmbn edited to fix up my quote errors

maybemaybenot -> RE: Questions for the Atheists (4/28/2011 6:39:10 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: PeonForHer Would this have anything to do with a lack of counsellors in the military? I could imagine that the average, troubled, serviceman or woman might have little recourse to help other than that provided by medics, psychiatrists (who won't deal with non-serious psychological problems) or the standard, religious kinds of chaplains. I've had a sense that an old, very conservative attitude prevails in the militaries of many countries: that if you don't have a fighting problem, a medical problem or a religious problem, you don't have any problems that merit any major concern. I can agree with this 100%. And agree with the term counsilors, it fits and describes what I see their function<s> would be. I would easily undertstand a counsilor role in the Chaplain division of the Military.

PeonForHer -> RE: Questions for the Atheists (4/28/2011 6:40:47 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: maybemaybenot I do understand that Peon. But the term non theist advisor/ counsilor would work, I think. He or she would not be in the psychiatric division of the military, but in the religious division. So going to the Humanist or non theist cousilor would be equal to going to the Priest, Rabbi, Minister etc. Just a my thoughts. mbmbn OK, say that there's no stigma attached to seeing someone with the explicit title of 'advisor' or 'counsellor'. And maybe that's not what they need, anyway. Two thoughts: one, there could really be 'angry-at-God' type atheists who'd want to see someone who they'd think would be more sympathetic to their wavelength than religious chaplains. Secondly, there could be a whole world of thoughts and feelings about life and death that trouble atheists in the military, just as there are to religious people in the military. These sorts of things might be better taken to a philosopher, of sorts, rather than a counsellor. But a non-religious philosopher . . . .

lickenforyou -> RE: Questions for the Atheists (4/28/2011 6:41:38 PM)
quote: From what I have read and heard from Jason Trophy, the Humanist Chaplain would not have any role or duties of what we now call a chaplain. S/he would not conduct services, pray or anything like that. If someone came to the humanist chaplain for that, the humanist would re direct him to the appropriate faithed chaplain. A non theist counsilor or advisor? Sure, hell yea, why not ? Why not call him/her exactly that ? mbmbn When you're dealing with the military it is going to be easier to introduce something new (in this case an atheist counselor) into a system that already exists - like the chaplain system. Creating a whole new category would be a huge undertaking because of military procedure. Except for holding services the atheist chaplain would be performing the same duties as a religious chaplain. An atheist soldier who is trying to deal with the act of killing doesn't want to hear that it's God's plan. That will not help him at all. Using the already existing chaplain system would mean that these soldiers would have counseling available a lot sooner.

maybemaybenot -> RE: Questions for the Atheists (4/28/2011 7:06:10 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: lickenforyou When you're dealing with the military it is going to be easier to introduce something new (in this case an atheist counselor) into a system that already exists - like the chaplain system. Creating a whole new category would be a huge undertaking because of military procedure. Except for holding services the atheist chaplain would be performing the same duties as a religious chaplain. An atheist soldier who is trying to deal with the act of killing doesn't want to hear that it's God's plan. That will not help him at all. Using the already existing chaplain system would mean that these soldiers would have counseling available a lot sooner. I get and understand what you are saying and sincerely agree that athiest soldiers have the same issues to deal with as those of faith. I'm not military and perhaps you are, so would know better than me, but based on this article I linked, the request for Atheist Chaplains has not been answered, but the group at Fort Bragg is getting support from the Chaplains for their request for a MASH. So, I am thinking it's the usage of the word chaplain. Snip from link : Mr. Torpy has asked to meet the chiefs of chaplains for each of the armed forces, which have their own corps, to discuss his proposal. The chiefs have yet to comment. At the same time, an atheist group at Fort Bragg called Military Atheists and Secular Humanists, or MASH, has asked the Army to appoint an atheist lay leader at the base. A new MASH chapter at Fort Campbell, Ky., is planning to do the same as are atheists at MacDill Air Force Base in Florida. Such lay leaders can lead “services” in lieu of chaplains and have access to meeting rooms, including chapels. Chaplains at Fort Bragg near here have seemed open to the idea, if somewhat perplexed by it mbmbn

Edwynn -> RE: Questions for the Atheists (4/28/2011 7:20:16 PM)
I really cannot believe that you actually fell for this one.

ArizonaBossMan -> RE: Questions for the Atheists (4/28/2011 7:23:43 PM)
unitarians would take the job. I know. I used to be unitarian. The more education I got, the more I questioned my professors on their liberal orthodoxy. Unitarians went hard left, I went right. I learned at a very young age watching caring, sensitive liberal unitarians... they were all for liberalism as long as it didn't inconvenience them or cost them any money.

Edwynn -> RE: Questions for the Atheists (4/28/2011 7:37:11 PM)
Well then, we're all glad that you found the 'give my and everyone else's money to the super rich' religion. Talk about faith. PS By the way, that one is costing all of us a LOT of money, whether any of us adhere to that faith or not.

lickenforyou -> RE: Questions for the Atheists (4/28/2011 7:42:09 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: maybemaybenot quote: ORIGINAL: lickenforyou When you're dealing with the military it is going to be easier to introduce something new (in this case an atheist counselor) into a system that already exists - like the chaplain system. Creating a whole new category would be a huge undertaking because of military procedure. Except for holding services the atheist chaplain would be performing the same duties as a religious chaplain. An atheist soldier who is trying to deal with the act of killing doesn't want to hear that it's God's plan. That will not help him at all. Using the already existing chaplain system would mean that these soldiers would have counseling available a lot sooner. I get and understand what you are saying and sincerely agree that athiest soldiers have the same issues to deal with as those of faith. I'm not military and perhaps you are, so would know better than me, but based on this article I linked, the request for Atheist Chaplains has not been answered, but the group at Fort Bragg is getting support from the Chaplains for their request for a MASH. So, I am thinking it's the usage of the word chaplain. Snip from link : Mr. Torpy has asked to meet the chiefs of chaplains for each of the armed forces, which have their own corps, to discuss his proposal. The chiefs have yet to comment. At the same time, an atheist group at Fort Bragg called Military Atheists and Secular Humanists, or MASH, has asked the Army to appoint an atheist lay leader at the base. A new MASH chapter at Fort Campbell, Ky., is planning to do the same as are atheists at MacDill Air Force Base in Florida. Such lay leaders can lead “services” in lieu of chaplains and have access to meeting rooms, including chapels. Chaplains at Fort Bragg near here have seemed open to the idea, if somewhat perplexed by it mbmbn I am former military and I can tell you that the, seemingly, small task of naming them something besides chaplains will be a huge undertaking for the military. Studies, meetings, and creating a new category with guidelines, rules and regulations will take a long long time. Chaplains are already in place so it would be much easier for them to amend the current system than to create a new one.

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