RE: Bin Laden..........DEAD (Full Version)

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Hillwilliam -> RE: Bin Laden..........DEAD (5/3/2011 9:32:59 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

quote:

Please present a quote where he says this.



It was in his interview on 60 minutes during the o.j. trial. He was discussing the limitations of dna and the pcr protocol.

I hope you realize that in the last 16 years, DNA analysis has gone from the Model T to the corvette.



kalikshama -> RE: Bin Laden..........DEAD (5/3/2011 12:01:59 PM)

FR,

I've highlighted the sections pertaining to identification from this great behind the scenes article: http://www.nytimes.com/2011/05/03/world/asia/03intel.html?hp

...On March 22, the president asked his advisers their opinions on the options.

Mr. Gates was skeptical about a helicopter assault, calling it risky, and instructed military officials to look into aerial bombardment using smart bombs. But a few days later, the officials returned with the news that it would take some 32 bombs of 2,000 pounds each. And how could the American officials be certain that they had killed Bin Laden?

“It would have created a giant crater, and it wouldn’t have given us a body,” said one American intelligence official.

...The commandos found Bin Laden on the third floor, wearing the local loose-fitting tunic and pants known as a shalwar kameez, and officials said he resisted before he was shot above the left eye near the end of the 40-minute raid. The American government gave few details about his final moments. “Whether or not he got off any rounds, I frankly don’t know,” said Mr. Brennan, the White House counterterrorism chief. But a senior Pentagon official, briefing on the condition of anonymity, said it was clear Bin Laden “was killed by U.S. bullets.”

American officials insisted they would have taken Bin Laden into custody if he did not resist, although they considered that likelihood remote. “If we had the opportunity to take Bin Laden alive, if he didn’t present any threat, the individuals involved were able and prepared to do that,” Mr. Brennan said.

One of Bin Laden’s wives identified his body, American officials said. A picture taken by a Seals commando and processed through facial recognition software suggested a 95 percent certainty that it was Bin Laden. Later, DNA tests comparing samples with relatives found a 99.9 percent match.



DeviantlyD -> RE: Bin Laden..........DEAD (5/3/2011 12:03:25 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx


quote:

ORIGINAL: hlen5


quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

quote:

Is DNA tested that quickly for an actual match, as opposed to a non-match??


Kary mullis says that only a non match is valid.


I'm not sure what you mean. By non-match I meant, would it be quicker to see sample A does not match sample B rather than sample A and Sample B are a perfect match (half match for a brother-sister comparison)?



Kary Mullis says that the pcr test he developed to sequence dna will tell if you are not someone but it cannot tell that you are some one. In short just because the dna match, it is not proof via pcr that the two samples came from the same person.


He may have improved PCR, but that doesn't mean he's aware of how current PCR technology is used for DNA identification. I haven't read his comments though, do you have a link? From what I have read about him, I'd say he's got a few marbles loose, such as thinking HIV does not lead to AIDS. Yeah, okay.



DeviantlyD -> RE: Bin Laden..........DEAD (5/3/2011 12:11:27 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam

quote:

ORIGINAL: DeviantlyD


quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam

what most folks don't realize is that most analytical techniques are invented by a bunch of eggheads in a university lab with a LOT of cool equipment. After the technique is perfected and vetted, it must then be 'dumbed down' so that a typical tech can do it without undue difficulty and still obtain good data. This typically means dwawing the process WAAAAAAAAAAAAAY out.



I know this isn't true.


How many analytical techniques have you developed?

I have several either solo or as an assistant.



I'd be interested to hear what you have developed or been involved with.

Elaborate on what you mean. You say eggheads use "cool equipment" and then develop techniques that have to be "dumbed down". In terms of medical analyses, (and I know you may not be speaking strictly about these), most are done on analyzers, not some kit. So how would something that works on "cool equipment" already require a change?

I have a feeling there is information you haven't included that would make your comments more understandable, such as how do you define "cool equipment" and how do you define "techs"?



thompsonx -> RE: Bin Laden..........DEAD (5/3/2011 12:17:37 PM)

quote:

Kary Mullis says that the pcr test he developed to sequence dna will tell if you are not someone but it cannot tell that you are some one. In short just because the dna match, it is not proof via pcr that the two samples came from the same person.



He may have improved PCR,

He did not improve it, he got the nobel prize for developing the pcr protocol...that kinda means he invented it.

but that doesn't mean he's aware of how current PCR technology is used for DNA identification.

Perhaps you should read what he said and not what you think he said. He was able to get a 99+% match then. What he said is just because you have a 100% match does not mean that both samples came from the same person.

I haven't read his comments though, do you have a link? From what I have read about him, I'd say he's got a few marbles loose, such as thinking HIV does not lead to AIDS. Yeah, okay.

PHD in chemestry,nobel prize in chemestry, holder of numerous patents...you could be right just some nut job.



Hillwilliam -> RE: Bin Laden..........DEAD (5/3/2011 12:33:53 PM)

I define 'techs' as a person that has been trained to feed samples into the equipment using a standard protocol. Typically, they are undergrads or new grads who don't have a lot of understanding about the inner workings of the equipment.

As a general rule, if something nonstandard happens, they are out of their league and must call in support.

Those who write those manuals go by the creed "Just as soon as you make something idiot proof, they go and invent a whole new breed of idiot"

When an analytical protocol is written, this must be taken into account.

An analyst is frequently the person that wrote the operations manual (I wrote the one for My old lab for electron microscopical examination of unknown clay minerals using visual, X-Ray Spectroscopic and electron beam diffraction techniques).

The techs were able to use it to prepare the samples and identify what was in them if they had an idea what was there. If it was totally unknown or something nonstandard came in, I had to take over. I also had to take over if it was sensitive and/or might head to court.

I perfected the techniques required for sample prep to reduce analysis time from 12 hours to 4 because I was lucky and had a boss that gave me free reign to 'play' and it made him a LOT of money. Those techniques weren't published because then our competition would have access to them. They were doing the same things no doubt LOL.

In grad school, I created a technique to examine and quanitfy microtrabeculae in small mammal femurs by SEM. It was used by My major adviser and a lab partner who were doing research into steroids and their affect on muscle growth and how that affected bone architecture.

University labs typically have access to equipment that is impossible to economically obtain for a private lab. They also have access to each others equipment. If what I needed in grad school wasn't available, there were a half dozen university campuses within a 30 minute drive and a phone call got me in.

If I needed to use anything short of a particle accelerator, it was available. A private lab can't do that.

I was also part of the group at the same university that was working on some of the initial DNA gel electrophoresis experiments. They were botanists who were trying to isolate gene fragments that coded for certain enzymes.

I helped them out because they needed extra hands and I was free between My work and teaching. When I needed help in the EM lab, they reciprocated.



kalikshama -> RE: Bin Laden..........DEAD (5/3/2011 12:36:04 PM)

quote:

Kary Mullis says that the pcr test he developed to sequence dna will tell if you are not someone but it cannot tell that you are some one. In short just because the dna match, it is not proof via pcr that the two samples came from the same person.
quote:

He may have improved PCR, but that doesn't mean he's aware of how current PCR technology is used for DNA identification. I haven't read his comments though, do you have a link? From what I have read about him, I'd say he's got a few marbles loose, such as thinking HIV does not lead to AIDS. Yeah, okay.


This is fascinating:

http://www.virusmyth.com/aids/hiv/kmdancing.htm

When I first heard in 1984 that Luc Montagnier of France's Pasteur Institute and Robert Gallo of America's National Institutes of Health had independently discovered that the retrovirus H.I.V. -- human immunodeficiency virus -- caused AIDS, I accepted it as just another scientific fact. It was a little out of my field of biochemistry, and these men were specialists in retroviruses.

Four years later I was working as a consultant at Specialty Labs in Santa Monica. Specialty was trying to develop a means of using P.C.R. [polymerase chain reaction, a D.N.A.-amplification method conceived by Mullis] to detect retroviruses in the thousands of blood donations received per day by the Red Cross. I was writing a report on our progress for the project sponsor, and I began by stating, "H.I.V. is the probable cause of AIDS."

I asked a virologist at Specialty where I could find the reference for H.I.V. being the cause of AIDS.

"You don't need a reference," he told me. "Everybody knows it."

"I'd like to quote a reference." I felt a little funny about not knowing the source of such an important discovery. Everyone else seemed to.

"Why don't you cite the C.D.C. report?" he suggested, giving me a copy of the Centers for Disease Control's periodic report on morbidity and mortality. I read it. It wasn't a scientific article. It simply said that an organism had been identified -- it did not say how. It requested that doctors report any patients showing certain symptoms and test them for antibodies to this organism. The report did not identify the original scientific work, but that didn't surprise me. It was intended for physicians, who didn't need to know the source of the information. Physicians assumed that if the C.D.C. was convinced, there must exist real proof somewhere that H.I.V. was the cause of AIDS.

...One night I was driving from Berkeley to La Jolla and I heard an interview on National Public Radio with Peter Duesberg, a prominent virologist at Berkeley. I finally understood why I was having so much trouble finding the references that linked H.I.V. to AIDS. There weren't any, Duesberg said. No one had ever proved that H.I.V. causes AIDS.



DomKen -> RE: Bin Laden..........DEAD (5/3/2011 1:21:47 PM)

A qucik literatur search turned up a bunch of articles detailing how HIV causes AIDS. Here's one
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2716400/?tool=pmcentrez



mnottertail -> RE: Bin Laden..........DEAD (5/3/2011 1:32:08 PM)

Bin Lauden died of Aids?



Lucylastic -> RE: Bin Laden..........DEAD (5/3/2011 1:33:15 PM)

http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/05/03/us-pakistan-has-bin-laden-wife-children-idUSTRE7423SK20110503
A senior Pakistani intelligence official said one of Osama bin Laden's daughters had seen her father being shot dead by U.S. forces, and was one of about 10 relatives of the al Qaeda leader in custody pending interrogation.



Estring -> RE: Bin Laden..........DEAD (5/3/2011 1:34:05 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

Bin Lauden died of Aids?


That and a bullet in the brain.



mnottertail -> RE: Bin Laden..........DEAD (5/3/2011 1:38:17 PM)

Ah, what the fuck, the other woulda got him anyway, then.

You must be stuffed to the gills for work, Estring, ain't seen you around, where you been?



Hillwilliam -> RE: Bin Laden..........DEAD (5/3/2011 1:39:19 PM)

I think it is called "acute lead poisoning"



JstAnotherSub -> RE: Bin Laden..........DEAD (5/3/2011 3:43:24 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: DeviantlyD

Good lord! Now I have this playing in my head!!!

*glares at thompsonx*


That is sad...try this to get it out of your head.



hlen5 -> RE: Bin Laden..........DEAD (5/3/2011 3:52:39 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: JstAnotherSub

That is sad...try this to get it out of your head.



You are EVIL!



Lucylastic -> RE: Bin Laden..........DEAD (5/3/2011 4:14:49 PM)

OK thats got me dancing, and goin to put on my harem costume to wander around in




LanceHughes -> RE: Bin Laden..........DEAD (5/3/2011 4:27:15 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Estring
quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail
Bin Lauden died of Aids?

That and a bullet in the brain.

AIDS = Acquired "Internal Death Shot"  



urineme -> RE: Bin Laden..........DEAD (5/3/2011 4:35:32 PM)

"Bin Laden died of Aids"????? SOMEONE is in serious need of a high-colonic reality enema!!! Yes, he's dead, HOW? U.S.N. SEAL TEAM 6 administered a 9mm intra-cranial dose of "terminalin". Navy Seals, when it absolutely, positively has to be done right, overnight.

William



DeviantlyD -> RE: Bin Laden..........DEAD (5/3/2011 6:02:28 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

quote:

Kary Mullis says that the pcr test he developed to sequence dna will tell if you are not someone but it cannot tell that you are some one. In short just because the dna match, it is not proof via pcr that the two samples came from the same person.



He may have improved PCR,

He did not improve it, he got the nobel prize for developing the pcr protocol...that kinda means he invented it.

but that doesn't mean he's aware of how current PCR technology is used for DNA identification.

Perhaps you should read what he said and not what you think he said. He was able to get a 99+% match then. What he said is just because you have a 100% match does not mean that both samples came from the same person.

I haven't read his comments though, do you have a link? From what I have read about him, I'd say he's got a few marbles loose, such as thinking HIV does not lead to AIDS. Yeah, okay.

PHD in chemestry,nobel prize in chemestry, holder of numerous patents...you could be right just some nut job.



I'll respond later when I have more time. In the meantime, do you have to respond like such a dick? :P I swear it seems people believe the title of this forum is a free pass to exhibit rude behaviour.



Daddysredhead -> RE: Bin Laden..........DEAD (5/3/2011 7:24:02 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ArizonaBossMan

lots of violent, non civil talk here. I'd be banning and erasing posts if I ran the joint. where's the love? compassion? what about the children?


The children? They're dead. Yeah, about 15 pages back, they were carpet-bombed, along with millions of other innocent bystanders whose only "crime" is to be part of a faith system that ignorant people won't bother to educate themselves about before talking out of their asses.

It amazes me when people speak of things they have no clue about, or just repeat stupid stuff they hear from folks who have no smarts to begin with. The majority of Muslim people are very peaceful. They follow their faith with reverence and respect and just want to be allowed to practice it without outsiders trying to turn it upside down and make it something crazy.

Every major religion in the world has bad history if you have the brains to read about it. To say that Christians have always been peaceful, passive people is insane. For what it's worth, I am Christian, and I know the history that is in my faith. Has anyone ever heard of the Crusades? There's a lot more, but I won't bother to write all that out because the people who need to read it, probably won't anyway.

The Taliban and Osama bin Laden and other people like that prescribe to a bastardized version of Islam. Most Muslims don't want to be associated with him anymore than I (or most other Christians) want to be associated with the Westboro Baptist Church and its leader.

Extremists are found in most every group or association around the world, and that's not limited to religious factions. There are idiots in every village. What I find amazingly jaw-dropping is that there are people who stomp around demanding tolerance, respect, and acceptance for their little "special interest group" and then blast others based on something that they are personally ignorant of, scared of, or bigoted against "just because" and refuse to call it what it is... hypocracy and prejudice. And there's nothing "politely disagreeable" about stating that an entire population should be exterminated because you don't like them for some reason that is nothing short of irrational. Genocide is deplorable and I am sickened that people would write about it in such a cavalier fashion as to say, "I wish someone would just end them already."

Hatred is hatred... it isn't nicely put into a box called "personal bias." So, let's just turn on the light and let the roaches scatter. And when they do, maybe they will get exterminated, too.

(edited for typo)



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