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RE: what is tpe? - 5/3/2011 10:44:55 PM   
WyldHrt


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quote:

It only hurts the first time.

Don't get used to it.


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RE: what is tpe? - 5/3/2011 11:23:55 PM   
Awareness


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quote:

ORIGINAL: WyldHrt

quote:

It only hurts the first time.

Don't get used to it.


It's inevitable.  First they loathe me.  Then they respect me.  Then they admire me.  Then they adore me.

It's like the circle of life, except without Elton John crooning in the background.

< Message edited by Awareness -- 5/3/2011 11:24:13 PM >

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RE: what is tpe? - 5/4/2011 12:37:41 AM   
MarcEsadrian


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Awareness

quote:

ORIGINAL: ranja
So the master has all the power and the slave all the responsibility?
or did you mean the master has all the power AND all the responsibility?
nice try but it still seems flawed

 
Inasmuch as 'Master' and 'slave' are approximate terms which are subject to endless semantic debates, TPE involves the submissive partner exchanging authority/power for the absence of responsibility and accountability they crave.

The submissive exchanges the power to decide for the freedom from doing so.  The Dominant assumes the mantle of decision maker and gives up freedom from responsibility.


I have always seen TPE to be little more than a synonym for M/s, as the power being assigned, judging by the phrase, seems to convey "absolute". To compound the impression, I often see people referring to the parties in a TPE relationship as "Master and slave". One need only look to this very thread and elsewhere online as an example of that.

If TPE is indeed another way of expressing M/s, the idea of absence of responsibility or accountability for the slave seems flawed. Perhaps for the slave a removal of all outer executive responsibilities, yes, but an intensification of personal responsibility upon the one she serves increases, so it's not absence of being responsible or accountable, really (if anything, it gives responsibility a far grimmer intimacy with the servant). Further, while a good Master (or Mistress) recognizes responsibility in managing/caring for what they keep, total power means the luxury to bend, change or discard rules of responsibility or care, if one so chooses. I say this assuming we are not simply talking about the sexual realm, either. While everything is subject to semantic hell on a BDSM message board, I should probably note that when I say "Master" or "slave" it is meant with more literalism and compass, not as merely code for sensual yin and yang.


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RE: what is tpe? - 5/4/2011 12:47:14 AM   
MarcEsadrian


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MissImmortalPain

Actually this is a little hard for me to make clear, but I will take a shot. I hate the word slave. I don't use it because it is not legal to own humans.


The legal chattel definition is not the only correct measure of the term's fair use, but that's a subject for perhaps another thread.


quote:

ORIGINAL: MissImmortalPain
*edit (again) * yes that is what I was saying. It is different....in my opinion.

That makes a lot of sense, then. As for how TPE substantively differs from M/s, I've yet to understand it .

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RE: what is tpe? - 5/4/2011 1:09:31 AM   
MissImmortalPain


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Status: offline 		It is more then likely a matter of opinion. This is mine so it won't change. But then I think I pointed that out. Or maybe I should keep playing at being nice and try to say it yet another way. How about I use a different word again. How about parent. I am a domme mommy. I do not want a "slave" a slave can only give you what they already know, which is often just to serve. A "child" on the other hand can learn, grow, become better as a person(and again don't jump me this is my opinion) A slave can serve for years and never step outside of the role of slave. A child ages, learns, hopefully becomes something better then what it started it's life as.

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RE: what is tpe? - 5/4/2011 1:29:53 AM   
WyldHrt


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quote:

It's inevitable.  First they loathe me.  Then they respect me.  Then they admire me.  Then they adore me.
I'm still in stage one, I'm afraid. I'll let you know if I make it to 2.


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RE: what is tpe? - 5/4/2011 2:09:53 AM   
LadyPact


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RE: what is tpe? - 5/4/2011 6:30:50 AM   
aromanholiday


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MissImmortalPain

How about parent. I am a domme mommy. I do not want a "slave" a slave can only give you what they already know, which is often just to serve. A "child" on the other hand can learn, grow, become better as a person(and again don't jump me this is my opinion) A slave can serve for years and never step outside of the role of slave. A child ages, learns, hopefully becomes something better then what it started it's life as.


This example makes sense to me. I think you are saying (correct me if I'm wrong) that you like your servants/subs to retain some individuality or will as well as be subservient to you to the degree that you desire? If so, I have been in relationships where the dominant's goals and desires for me were quite similar. From these experiences, though, I learned that what I really needed, deep down, wasn't being met in that style of relationship. But that's just me, it's certainly not true of every submissive person.

The one part of your statement I don't fully agree with is the implication (maybe you didn't mean to say this and I'm just reading it in? If so, ignore me!) that a slave, unlike a submissive/servant of the kind you described in your analogy, doesn't progress or become something better than what it started its life as. It's been my experience that slaves do improve/change in this manner. The rigors of doing something very hard and the reasons for undergoing the hardship to begin with transform a person in some profound ways, but, of course, not always in ways that everyone appreciates or desires. It has also been my sad personal experience that sometimes the "parent" spoils the "child" and the changes that occur as a result are not always positive or indicative of growth.

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RE: what is tpe? - 5/4/2011 6:56:13 AM   
aromanholiday


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MarcEsadrian

Perhaps for the slave a removal of all outer executive responsibilities, yes, but an intensification of personal responsibility upon the one she serves increases, so it's not absence of being responsible or accountable, really (if anything, it gives responsibility a far grimmer intimacy with the servant).



Are you saying that slaves have responsibility in the sense that they are ultimately responsible/accountable for carrying out the orders given to them and if they fail in their responsibilities they are sometimes (it would depend on the master/mistress, obviously) subject to such unpleasant consequences (punishment to dismissal) that such responsibility can become a heavy one? In my personal experience with this, that type of responsibility feels both heavy and light at the same time. It's light in that there is little uncertainty or confusion: no points where complex or difficult decisions must be made--those are already made for you or, if they crop up, can frequently be deferred to authority. It's heavy because of the consequences: you know that if you don't follow instructions because you're in a bad mood that day and just don't feel like doing it, that you might pay, maybe dearly, for that poor decision later.

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RE: what is tpe? - 5/4/2011 7:12:48 AM   
ChatteParfaitt


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MarcEsadrian

Submission is internal power in the ability to execute it personally, and lends power to all served by the servant, but in the right and capacity to control the Master or Mistress or to enact authority? Obviously, no. Considering the latter to be the likely usual suspect when the term "power" is thought about in D/s, the other ideas seem perhaps a little too esoteric to be clearly conveyed to the layman or novice with the phrase TPE.



Which is, perhaps, why the layman or novice does not understand the term TPE and asks to have it explained on a BDSM discussion board.

Master/slave implies one person having complete power, authority, control over, and responsibility for, another. Which is, in my never humble opinion, a fantasy. You can't *really* have complete power over someone, they might need to wipe their ass on their own. You can enjoy a roleplay type fantasy of complete control for short periods of time, but the reality is, good, long-term relationships just don't work that way. Which is why many relationships may begin as M/s, they evolve into a TPE.

Good, long-term relationships require a synergy, a back and forth, a mutual  *exchange* if you will, in order for the couple to thrive and evolve. A TPE allows for that, at the same time it promotes one to position of ultimate authority, on those occasions when an ultimate authority is needed.

In my dynamic with my dominant, we have a TPE. We are *not* master and slave, although some may argue that sexually, I am very much his slave. But I do not need to be controlled or told what to do or made to be responsible, I can do all that on my own (and he would be bored to tears and highly frustrated with someone who needed that). It does mean I have ceded final authority to him.

< Message edited by ChatteParfaitt -- 5/4/2011 7:16:55 AM >

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RE: what is tpe? - 5/4/2011 7:43:26 AM   
ranja


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ChatteParfaitt

It does mean I have ceded final authority to him.


yes i can relate... that is very much the case for us too...
and indeed i expect him to let me have some if there is and i ask... nicely

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RE: what is tpe? - 5/4/2011 8:33:54 AM   
tyrasia


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Ok...I am sorry in advance for all the mistakes in grammer or wording i might make but i am wet within 10 posts of a growing thread and no thesis (went great btw!) to do so...but that also means no ritalin...disclaimer mode off

K So ...totally ...
THIS

quote:

ORIGINAL: ChatteParfaitt

Total Power Exchange: it's amazing how many people get hung up on the words total and power, but forget the exchange part.

I see a  TPE as a circular exchange in which the parties are very spiritually attuned, to the point that both merge to become a better whole. I've seen it often in old married couples who have no idea they have a TPE, the relationship flows effortlessly.

When a couple has this degree of compatibility, TPE is what quite naturally emerges out of the dynamic, though it can take months or even years to develop the necessary trust.








and Absolutely THIS!


quote:

ORIGINAL: Awareness

quote:

ORIGINAL: ranja
yes... there is a massive problem with the phrase
i still have no idea what the power gets exchanged for...
Responsibility.



*simply drips*

Um..yes Umm...what i was taught was that the power i give is all, to a Man who is wise, He provides safety, and care, assumes responsibility for the thing that is me. All of me and mine. Protection from myself, from others, a responsibility to guide me on a path which he can see growth or improve my value to Him.Simply put i get freedom, and He gains responsibility and another mouth to feed...albiet perfectly obedient mouth but meh...i never understood it myself....if a relationship ADDED that much to my table i'd run screaming! These Natural Leaders just somehow get something i don't and they get it very well! Yah soo that is what comes to mind when i say TPE. (also reason why it is hard for me to say yes to the one thing i know i need/want...will ignore it till it becomes less confusing, school has worn out my 'wanna think' mechanism temporarily be bored again in a month)
Responsibility is the part a lot/some/a percentage of (please don't semantic me, if something is unclear ask, i am good at explaining it a few different ways) of other Dominant Men don't get or are not up for. For whatever reasons, this is my experience in general. Usually i tend to not count reasons so much as results, especially in 'trying to ignore it ' mode...dam ramble stop...

guess that is it...will probably have more as i go but i'll make a word file and put it after i read the rest, or monday.
Happy Mothers Day! Everyone have a great weekend, i'll stream all my happiness to you, i will have an abundance this weekend!

tyr

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RE: what is tpe? - 5/4/2011 9:06:57 AM   
tyrasia


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MarcEsadrian

quote:

It's neat to think of yourself as a simple and carefree dog, and trust I am one to appreciate that visualization and practice, but the human reality is we are complex creatures with egos and ids to corral, not to mention instructions to obey and transparency to uphold when living under servitude. The notion a slave under ideal conditioning is a vacuous third-person speaking shell that doesn't take responsibility for herself invites a loophole for trouble in my mind.




The instructions i go by is that if i have any doubt at all about any of the above, this Man has not mastered me. i will kneel only to the Man i can't do anything else to/with. Only good men are allowed close to me because i know a self-weakness when i see it, and i account for it in my plans and whatever...dunno how to explain that.
Whether i 'feel' like a slave or not, i have agreed to make his bowl of cereal in the morning and do the dishes ..i dunno, was owned, not now, both times were uniquely differrent so ..meh..
Communication is easy, but takes a special patient kind of person to be able to talk to someone and the someone tell you things that might piss you off or something, and the listener not get mad...because that is what is necessary for the kind of transparant relay that needs to be present in a TPE....imvho
if i cannot get something done i explain why and trust the Man i allowed to enslave me (this is prolly the important thing the i allowe part) is rational and lives in reality (which i would have known before all that happened).
Just ok i am not making sense, i never understood the not doing what i was told, maybe the corp is more ingrained than i thought. i have just tried 3 times to type a way to explain it and i can't. It isn't about IF i'd do xzy, it is about the getting to that point part. Before or as a relationship is established i like to know what is expected, and the boundaries i may work in, i want to know the boundaries not to break them but to put my intellect toward maximizing the good parts of what there is to build with.

hmmm i once said, "Take all that You'd own, and own what You take."


EDITing this instead of making another post ...sorry i'l hush after this or at least take a ritalin...

quote:

ORIGINAL: aromanholiday

quote:

If so, I have been in relationships where the dominant's goals and desires for me were quite similar. From these experiences, though, I learned that what I really needed, deep down, wasn't being met in that style of relationship. But that's just me, it's certainly not true of every submissive person.




In my first ownership He identified as a Master and i as a slave and in the time that He owned me this exact thing happened. We went out and leaned and grew, in and out of the lifestyle. He sat me down one day and told me that both of us need different things, i do not need a daddy and he needs a baby girl and he was not a Master and we learned this and He is happier now, we still play Asheron's Call together and have been great friends ever since. It takes a Man of high character to do what is right when it is hard. Also i tell my friends that if you meet someone you never want to be without, make them your friend. Good friendships span several relationships! :P

tyr

< Message edited by tyrasia -- 5/4/2011 9:16:47 AM >

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RE: what is tpe? - 5/4/2011 11:32:31 AM   
MarcEsadrian


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ChatteParfaitt
Master/slave implies one person having complete power, authority, control over, and responsibility for, another. Which is, in my never humble opinion, a fantasy.

And yet other takes from coiners themselves (Davis, Jacobs) see it as "[ ... ] a relationship in which no impediment to the exercise of the owner's power is accepted" or "such things as safewords, contracts, negotiated limits, and anything else which recognizes / acknowledges / formalizes limits on the owner's power are inimical to TPE".

I see terms such as "owner" and "power" and "no impediment" being used quite assertedly in the above as ideals, so once again, TPE seems to follow the M/s paradigm fairly well. As an aside, anyone with experience in M/s knows notions of "total" power, control and responsibility, while ideal, are effectively misnomers, as they cannot be absolutely qualified in all possible abstract examples, so perhaps we can dispatch that straw man.


quote:

ORIGINAL: ChatteParfaitt
You can enjoy a roleplay type fantasy of complete control for short periods of time, but the reality is, good, long-term relationships just don't work that way. Which is why many relationships may begin as M/s, they evolve into a TPE.

That's an interesting take on things, but I don't see any real evidence "M/s" magically turns into your version of "TPE" as a rule, or why it needs to. Your assertions disqualifying M/s from being a long-term relationship paradigm are unfounded and require a significant burden of proof to uphold.

quote:

ORIGINAL: ChatteParfaitt
Good, long-term relationships require a synergy, a back and forth, a mutual  *exchange* if you will, in order for the couple to thrive and evolve.

I'll avoid asking what you mean by "good" and cut to the chase: are you inferring M/s does not allow for a fulfilling symbiosis? Are you likewise implying M/s does not allow the parties involved to "evolve" (in any "good" direction)? My experience on both sides of the fence, so to speak, shows otherwise.

quote:

ORIGINAL: ChatteParfaitt
It does mean I have ceded final authority to him.

Which, if you've been following along and not merely reading to pull statements out of context to condescend, is why I suspect Ultimate Authority Transfer is a far less misleading phrase, and more effectively delineates many such relationships from the ideals upheld in M/s (and apparently, TPE as well).

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RE: what is tpe? - 5/4/2011 11:43:38 AM   
RedMagic1


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Status: offline 		Never seen the world "ultimate" before, and I don't like it, frankly.  It seems as unrealistic as "total."  Marc's journey down this particular road has been, ah, more extravagant than mine, though, so I'll suspend disbelief for a bit.

I get to come whenever I want.  She can't.  Doesn't mean I get to have a heartbeat and she doesn't.  And if someone tried to hand me that level of submission I would probably run to the nearest exit.  Both parties agree on what level of authority is transferred, and in every relationship I have ever seen, 100% of them, that type of agreement is fluid, or the relationship breaks.  People get sick, lose self-confidence, change their personalities.  If the partner is unable to deal with the complexity of a human being, then it doesn't matter how many BDSM protocols you know.  You end up alone.


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RE: what is tpe? - 5/4/2011 12:02:31 PM   
ChatteParfaitt


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MarcEsadrian


quote:

ORIGINAL: ChatteParfaitt
Master/slave implies one person having complete power, authority, control over, and responsibility for, another. Which is, in my never humble opinion, a fantasy.

And yet other takes from coiners themselves (Davis, Jacobs) see it as "[ ... ] a relationship in which no impediment to the exercise of the owner's power is accepted" or "such things as safewords, contracts, negotiated limits, and anything else which recognizes / acknowledges / formalizes limits on the owner's power are inimical to TPE".

I see terms such as "owner" and "power" and "no impediment" being used quite assertedly in the above as ideals, so once again, TPE seems to follow the M/s paradigm fairly well. As an aside, anyone with experience in M/s knows notions of "total" power, control and responsibility, while ideal, are effectively misnomers, as they cannot be absolutely qualified in all possible abstract examples, so perhaps we can dispatch that straw man.


quote:

ORIGINAL: ChatteParfaitt
You can enjoy a roleplay type fantasy of complete control for short periods of time, but the reality is, good, long-term relationships just don't work that way. Which is why many relationships may begin as M/s, they evolve into a TPE.

That's an interesting take on things, but I don't see any real evidence "M/s" magically turns into your version of "TPE" as a rule, or why it needs to. Your assertions disqualifying M/s from being a long-term relationship paradigm are unfounded and require a significant burden of proof to uphold.

quote:

ORIGINAL: ChatteParfaitt
Good, long-term relationships require a synergy, a back and forth, a mutual  *exchange* if you will, in order for the couple to thrive and evolve.

I'll avoid asking what you mean by "good" and cut to the chase: are you inferring M/s does not allow for a fulfilling symbiosis? Are you likewise implying M/s does not allow the parties involved to "evolve" (in any "good" direction)? My experience on both sides of the fence, so to speak, shows otherwise.

quote:

ORIGINAL: ChatteParfaitt
It does mean I have ceded final authority to him.

Which, if you've been following along and not merely reading to pull statements out of context to condescend, is why I suspect Ultimate Authority Transfer is a far less misleading phrase, and more effectively delineates many such relationships from the ideals upheld in M/s (and apparently, TPE as well).



*You* are the one pulling statements out of context to condescend. That doesn't work on me. I do not engage people in debate who need to attack those who don't agree with them  (see highlighted phrase above) or who need to fight their battles with the use of semantics.

Well,okay, sometimes I *do,*  but only when they are meglomaniac chaos lords with the emotional stamina of a toddler. And then I do it just for fun.






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RE: what is tpe? - 5/4/2011 12:08:01 PM   
MarcEsadrian


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quote:

ORIGINAL: aromanholiday
Are you saying that slaves have responsibility in the sense that they are ultimately responsible/accountable for carrying out the orders given to them and if they fail in their responsibilities they are sometimes (it would depend on the master/mistress, obviously) subject to such unpleasant consequences (punishment to dismissal) that such responsibility can become a heavy one?

In my experience and opinion, yes. As for it being heavy or light, that is a matter of which side of the philosophical coin you're on at the moment, I feel. That said, it is both "heavy" and "light", to use your ideas. Slavery can be freeing in as much as it allows one to be what they yearn to be, but accountability and responsibility, not only to that ideal, but also the Master's authority and the consequences it brings, is inevitable.

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RE: what is tpe? - 5/4/2011 1:12:09 PM   
MarcEsadrian


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ChatteParfaitt
Well,okay, sometimes I *do,* but only when they are meglomaniac chaos lords with the emotional stamina of a toddler. And then I do it just for fun.


ChatteParfaitt,

Well, that sucks. When you're up for an actual discussion instead of assigning me qualities you can't cite or ascertain, have at it.

Sincerely,
Lord Of Chaos


quote:

ORIGINAL: RedMagic1
Never seen the world "ultimate" before, and I don't like it, frankly. It seems as unrealistic as "total." Marc's journey down this particular road has been, ah, more extravagant than mine, though, so I'll suspend disbelief for a bit.

I don't like it all that much, either, to tell you the truth, but whereas ultimate means "being or happening at the end of a process", it coincides with the when all is said and done, he has final authority idea, at least in my mind, which allows for a lot of the fluidity you speak of and avoids the literal ambiguity of TPE, which looks a lot like M/s, to me.



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RE: what is tpe? - 5/4/2011 1:25:53 PM   
MissImmortalPain


Posts: 2440
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Status: offline 		For the most part yes I was saying what you thought I was...thank you for getting it. Maybe I am just overly anal about some words. The words pet, submissive, slave, do not all mean the same thing to me. I am often overly literal about things like this, but it works for me. I don't assume anyone else has to do it the way I do, or even get it for that matter(thank you again) Let me see if I can break it down from my point of view.

Pet - affectionant animal that I can train to do tricks when I tell it to. Lets start with "down boy, kneel. Good" (give pet a treat)

Submissive - Person.This (in my opinion) is more about kink "on your knees, boy/girl" oh my you are good at that ok we can screw...but only the way I say we can. I being the dom/me not the sub.

Slave - object "go do the laundry, clean the house, no we aren't having sex" I don't have sex with property. I can give you away. I can sell you. I can just tell you to go away. You are not something I "love"

Domme Mommy - Me,and this has nothing to do with treating an adult like a baby (I'm throwing this one in for fun,don't worry my real kids aren't spoiled either) "Yes dear I love you.Yes I will take care of you. Yes I will teach you. Yes I will smack the holy daylights out of you if you don't learn your lessons and show me you can be a better person"

*adds more fun*

Pro Domme - Human with a (large) ego (me again) "You would like me to do what to you. Alright we will start there and go here. You want me to call you what. Alright I will also call you this, and this, and this. You want to have sex (trys to look shocked) No honey, we will not be doing that. I am a pro domme not a hooker, and even if I were one...you couldn't afford me.

*legal disclaimer* The above is the stated OPINION of the poster, and only the poster. If you agree...yay we should have tea, or a shot of jack together, maybe a nice much. If you don't agree...oh well, I have to many friends anyway. Cheers


edit because I said a bad word....go me.

< Message edited by MissImmortalPain -- 5/4/2011 1:31:40 PM >

_____________________________

It is always by way of pain that we arrive at pleasure.

We must all go through a right of passage,and it must be physical, it must be painful,and it must leave a mark.

(in reply to aromanholiday)
Profile   Post #: 39
RE: what is tpe? - 5/4/2011 1:29:02 PM   
ChatteParfaitt


Posts: 6562
Joined: 3/22/2011
From: The t'aint of the Midwest -- Indiana
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MarcEsadrian


quote:

ORIGINAL: ChatteParfaitt
Well,okay, sometimes I *do,* but only when they are meglomaniac chaos lords with the emotional stamina of a toddler. And then I do it just for fun.


ChatteParfaitt,

Well, that sucks. When you're up for an actual discussion instead of assigning me qualities you can't cite or ascertain, have at it.

Sincerely,
Lord Of Chaos


ROFL

I was not referring to you, Marc, but to a rather virulent troll I poked a stick at a couple weeks back. You may want to refer to the thread "Opportunity of a lifetime for a very lucky slave!" though I admit most of my *better* posts were pulled.

However, that you thought I *was* referring to you tells me A LOT.

If the shoe fits, boy-o, by all means slip it on and wear it.





_____________________________



(in reply to MarcEsadrian)
Profile   Post #: 40
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