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RE: what is tpe? - 5/4/2011 1:36:18 PM   
MarcEsadrian


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ChatteParfaitt
I was not referring to you, Marc, but to a rather virulent troll I poked a stick at a couple weeks back. You may want to refer to the thread "Opportunity of a lifetime for a very lucky slave!" though I admit most of my *better* posts were pulled.


I can't imagine why they were!

Anyway, I was referring to your comments in this thread, smart ass.

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RE: what is tpe? - 5/4/2011 2:00:31 PM   
ChatteParfaitt


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MarcEsadrian


quote:

ORIGINAL: ChatteParfaitt
I was not referring to you, Marc, but to a rather virulent troll I poked a stick at a couple weeks back. You may want to refer to the thread "Opportunity of a lifetime for a very lucky slave!" though I admit most of my *better* posts were pulled.


I can't imagine why they were!

My comments were pulled b/c I copied early quotes which had to be pulled. Others comments on the internet do not cause me to revert to a three year old.

Anyway, I was referring to your comments in this thread, smart ass.


Oh really? You said this:

When you're up for an actual discussion instead of assigning me qualities you can't cite or ascertain, have at it.

Sincerely,
Lord Of Chaos

When did I do that? Did I have a blackout or something? 

I said this: Master/slave implies one person having complete power, authority, control over, and responsibility for, another. The rest of my statement followed that rather important word "implies."

If you prefer to call your dynamic Master/slave, by all means have at it. Many do. However, you do run the risk of misleading those will rush to make assumptions about your dynamic that may be false. The term TPE allows for a similar mindset without the need to be forced into semantic fits all peg holes.

RedMagic said this, and I agree:

Both parties agree on what level of authority is transferred, and in every relationship I have ever seen, 100% of them, that type of agreement is fluid, or the relationship breaks.  People get sick, lose self-confidence, change their personalities.  If the partner is unable to deal with the complexity of a human being, then it doesn't matter how many BDSM protocols you know.  You end up alone.

Lastly, leave my cute lil ass, smart as it is, out of the discussion, or I shall have to tell my non-Master you were flirting with me.


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RE: what is tpe? - 5/4/2011 2:27:33 PM   
mummyman321


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A defintion of TPE from the book "Screw The Roses Give me the Thorns":
"TPE is the empowerment of the Dominant BY the submissive's surrender to His/Her control. The power exchange is consensual and should be well negotiated. The depth of power yielded by the submissive is equal to the level of responsibility assumed by the Dominant."

I love this definition for TPE. Many will say TPE is the whatever the Dom(me) say goes. But TPE needs to include the E, the Exchange. Total power is Exchange by both sides, not just one side. The submissive is willingly giving his/her submission it is not forcefully taken.

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RE: what is tpe? - 5/4/2011 2:56:41 PM   
NuevaVida


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To me, TPE is a catchy phrase that means very little. In my own humble opinion, any time I have to spend a lot of energy dissecting what something means, I start reconsidering its value to me.

I submit to him. He owns me. My heart is enslaved to him. He has authority over me. Keeps it simple in my mind, and I like simple. Life gives us enough complexities without adding more of my own...

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RE: what is tpe? - 5/4/2011 5:36:05 PM   
aromanholiday


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tyrasia
In my first ownership He identified as a Master and i as a slave and in the time that He owned me this exact thing happened. We went out and leaned and grew, in and out of the lifestyle. He sat me down one day and told me that both of us need different things, i do not need a daddy and he needs a baby girl and he was not a Master and we learned this and He is happier now, we still play Asheron's Call together and have been great friends ever since. It takes a Man of high character to do what is right when it is hard. Also i tell my friends that if you meet someone you never want to be without, make them your friend. Good friendships span several relationships! :P
tyr


All of this is so very true, tyr. I didn't understand well what you were saying to the others in this thread, but I understand what you responded to me just fine. :) Your first master did a very good thing for you, I agree with you that it takes quite a high character to do what he did. That is so cool that you still play online together. (off topic: I never tried Asheron's Call but was always curious about it.)

"...if you meet someone you never want to be without, make them your friend. Good friendships span several relationships! :P"

LOL! This is new wisdom to me, but it defintely has the smell of wisdom. I will not forget what you have suggested, and if I am every in the position to do thus, I certainly will. :)


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RE: what is tpe? - 5/4/2011 6:02:37 PM   
aromanholiday


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quote:

ORIGINAL: RedMagic1

Never seen the world "ultimate" before, and I don't like it, frankly. 


Well, not to pick diction nits, but "ultiimate" as well as filling in for absolute and total also has a meaning of time about it, meaning a finalization, an ending. And ChatteParfaitt did say, most boldly and italically, "It does mean I have ceded final authority to him." But "Final Authority Transfer?" (grimace) Some words do not belong near each other and I think this is a fine example of that. Final Authority Transfer suggests to me the person you have designated to make sure you are buried properly! Ultimate Authority Transfer, on the other hand, conveys the idea to me (due to ultimate's time meaning) that the buck certainly stops with him (he makes the ultimate decision), but that you are not dead as doornail when this occurs!


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RE: what is tpe? - 5/4/2011 6:21:10 PM   
aromanholiday


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MissImmortalPain

For the most part yes I was saying what you thought I was...thank you for getting it. Maybe I am just overly anal about some words. The words pet, submissive, slave, do not all mean the same thing to me. I am often overly literal about things like this, but it works for me. I don't assume anyone else has to do it the way I do, or even get it for that matter(thank you again) Let me see if I can break it down from my point of view.


The nuances between words are important to me, too. I tend to get too "nitty" about them, though.

quote:


Slave - object "go do the laundry, clean the house, no we aren't having sex" I don't have sex with property. I can give you away. I can sell you. I can just tell you to go away. You are not something I "love"


Why don't you have sex with something you own, if it has sexual abilities? Isn't the slave sort olf like a heated sybian or a real doll that can talk, if you press the right button? The next question is, if you can potentially do all those things to a slave (sell, give away, dismiss) does that mean to you that you must keep emotionally distant from them? If so, why? I'm not trying to pick on you and I'm not even sure I disagree with you. This is an idea I have heard before in relation to slaves. I have heard many people, in fact, say similar things about slaves, so I'd like to explore it a bit more. Maybe it is necessary not to feel an emotional connection when you own a person as property because otherwise you couldn't own them?

LOL I really liked all of your roll descriptions. You sound like a lot of fun and I imagine you will get 10,000 emails from lonely boys as a result of that post! :D Seriously, I'm sorry I am just picking on this one, but it has the idea that is curious to me and that I want to know more about.

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RE: what is tpe? - 5/4/2011 6:25:09 PM   
MarcEsadrian


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ChatteParfaitt
I said this: Master/slave implies one person having complete power, authority, control over, and responsibility for, another.

Yes, yet there is a fairly common school of thought recognizing the mortal limits of M/s, and I count myself among them. Despite its literal connotation, the "total" in TPE has since also been disclaimed as an "ideal", to be worked towards but which will not be achieved, which is why TPE may be better seen as a process or goal than as a state. (Davidson, 1997)

With that in mind, there seems to be little difference in ideals between both, in reality. Therefore, what was mysterious to me was how you found M/s to be an unrealistic fantasy and TPE to be something of a circular exchange in which the parties are "very spiritually attuned", and often "seen in old, married couples". I have no doubt growing old together in spiritual attunement can happen in TPE, but these qualities, among others, like "synergy" are not by any means excluded in M/s.


quote:

ORIGINAL: ChatteParfaitt
If you prefer to call your dynamic Master/slave, by all means have at it. Many do. However, you do run the risk of misleading those [who] will rush to make assumptions about your dynamic that may be false.

It's true that the concept of M/s is often interpreted liberally; I don't think that's under debate. While not impervious to different interpretations, I do find M/s to have less literal ambiguity as it describes orientations/nouns, not absolute quantifications of power on its face, which tends to make the term problematic.


quote:

ORIGINAL: ChatteParfaitt
The term TPE allows for a similar mindset without the need to be forced into semantic fits all peg holes.

Though that might be the goal, the phrase seems to encounter the same sort of misinterpretation you note happens with M/s. Considering its actual definition, however, and one I'm inclined to trust reading Jacobs / Davidson, I feel it is, as you now say, a very "similar mindset" or goal—clearly similar enough, in my mind, as to be interchangeable.



quote:

ORIGINAL: ChatteParfaitt
Lastly, leave my cute lil ass, smart as it is, out of the discussion, or I shall have to tell my non-Master you were flirting with me.

By all means, allow me to disabuse you of that idea.



< Message edited by MarcEsadrian -- 5/4/2011 7:01:22 PM >

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RE: what is tpe? - 5/4/2011 6:27:46 PM   
MarcEsadrian


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quote:

ORIGINAL: aromanholiday


quote:

ORIGINAL: RedMagic1

Never seen the world "ultimate" before, and I don't like it, frankly. 


Well, not to pick diction nits, but "ultiimate" as well as filling in for absolute and total also has a meaning of time about it, meaning a finalization, an ending. And ChatteParfaitt did say, most boldly and italically, "It does mean I have ceded final authority to him." But "Final Authority Transfer?" (grimace) Some words do not belong near each other and I think this is a fine example of that. Final Authority Transfer suggests to me the person you have designated to make sure you are buried properly!


Not to mention it spells "FAT".


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RE: what is tpe? - 5/4/2011 6:28:25 PM   
aromanholiday


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quote:

ORIGINAL: NuevaVida

~Fast Reply~

To me, TPE is a catchy phrase that means very little. In my own humble opinion, any time I have to spend a lot of energy dissecting what something means, I start reconsidering its value to me.


Interesting. I'm just the opposite. The more I dissect something, turn it around, look at its details from all angles, the more I know, by my fascination, that I most passionately love it. If something strongly interests me, I must always dive deeply into its meaning and suck out whatever juice it offers up, whereas the things that I avoid thinking about are usually the things that I am uncomfortable with...or abhor.

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RE: what is tpe? - 5/4/2011 6:39:16 PM   
aromanholiday


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MarcEsadrian


quote:

ORIGINAL: aromanholiday


quote:

ORIGINAL: RedMagic1

Never seen the world "ultimate" before, and I don't like it, frankly. 


Well, not to pick diction nits, but "ultiimate" as well as filling in for absolute and total also has a meaning of time about it, meaning a finalization, an ending. And ChatteParfaitt did say, most boldly and italically, "It does mean I have ceded final authority to him." But "Final Authority Transfer?" (grimace) Some words do not belong near each other and I think this is a fine example of that. Final Authority Transfer suggests to me the person you have designated to make sure you are buried properly!


Not to mention it spells "FAT".



Oh good grief! OK. That term is OFFICIALLY GONE. It does not exist. Look above. See? Gone. I did not say that phrase! It was a fluke in the fluctuating...alternate realities, and we have all just ridden another wrinkle in time that erradicates it from the face of the earth.

(wipes brow) Well, I feel better.

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RE: what is tpe? - 5/4/2011 7:16:40 PM   
NuevaVida


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quote:

ORIGINAL: aromanholiday


quote:

ORIGINAL: NuevaVida

~Fast Reply~

To me, TPE is a catchy phrase that means very little. In my own humble opinion, any time I have to spend a lot of energy dissecting what something means, I start reconsidering its value to me.


Interesting. I'm just the opposite. The more I dissect something, turn it around, look at its details from all angles, the more I know, by my fascination, that I most passionately love it. If something strongly interests me, I must always dive deeply into its meaning and suck out whatever juice it offers up, whereas the things that I avoid thinking about are usually the things that I am uncomfortable with...or abhor.


I actually used to feel that way.  I'm an analyst by nature and I spend all day dissecting data and figuring out what it means.  With myself, though, I tend to let things process in the background a bit more, in a more relaxed state (perhaps because my mind is so taxed at work?).  I know it's back there, I'm aware of it, I pull it out and look at it awhile, and then I let it process again.  Eventually an answer about myself will pop into the foreground and I'll give it my full focus until I've figured out what it means.  Not sure if that makes sense.

But "TPE" - I dunno - It's a term I've seen for so long and it never made much sense to me, nor interested me very much.  So I don't have a desire to spend a lot of time on it, because I don't see much benefit in it (for me, personally).  I'm more "meh" about it than anything.

As for things I don't like, abhor, or even fear, I'm the opposite - Those are the things I want to yank out onto the table and really figure out, because I want to know why why why they're having such an impact on me (emotional reactions to them, for example).  If the term "TPE" caused a certain feeling in me (good, bad, happy, sad) then I'd examine it, but I'm indifferent to it - it really just doesn't mean anything to me.


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RE: what is tpe? - 5/4/2011 10:55:55 PM   
Awareness


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quote:

ORIGINAL: WyldHrt

quote:

It's inevitable.  First they loathe me.  Then they respect me.  Then they admire me.  Then they adore me.
I'm still in stage one, I'm afraid. I'll let you know if I make it to 2.

  Fuck, you make it sound like cancer.

I honestly can't decide whether I actually dislike that analogy.


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RE: what is tpe? - 5/4/2011 11:08:39 PM   
Awareness


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MarcEsadrian
I have always seen TPE to be little more than a synonym for M/s, as the power being assigned, judging by the phrase, seems to convey "absolute". To compound the impression, I often see people referring to the parties in a TPE relationship as "Master and slave". One need only look to this very thread and elsewhere online as an example of that.
People create approximations for the current state of the evolving idea of a concept they have in their head.  If that translates as "Master" and "slave" then it's an approximation which has meaning to them.  Attempting to analyse this in any kind of absolute sense is doomed to fail.

quote:

If TPE is indeed another way of expressing M/s, the idea of absence of responsibility or accountability for the slave seems flawed. Perhaps for the slave a removal of all outer executive responsibilities, yes, but an intensification of personal responsibility upon the one she serves increases, so it's not absence of being responsible or accountable, really (if anything, it gives responsibility a far grimmer intimacy with the servant).
  The slave obeys.  That's not responsibility, it's a simple law of consequences which dominates their lives.  The wise master will enforce it.  I don't see any value in dressing up this essential simplicity in something mystical.

quote:

Further, while a good Master (or Mistress) recognizes responsibility in managing/caring for what they keep, total power means the luxury to bend, change or discard rules of responsibility or care, if one so chooses. I say this assuming we are not simply talking about the sexual realm, either. While everything is subject to semantic hell on a BDSM message board, I should probably note that when I say "Master" or "slave" it is meant with more literalism and compass, not as merely code for sensual yin and yang.
  Frankly, I think that's self-deception.  Ultimately in a society capable of sanctioning your actions in regards to your slave, any pretense that you have literal and ultimate power is mere role playing.  The closest you can get is a slave who is psychologically bound to her master, something which may - at times - skirt the bounds of legality.

From that perspective, it becomes clear that for those of us operating within the bounds of a western society, that TPE is ultimately a consensual arrangement.  Trying to dress up one's own idea of TPE as something more is simply ego-driven nonsense.  One of the characteristics of a dominant is the ability to see reality for what it is, rather than engaging in self-delusion.

Any sub/slave with a sense of self-preservation and a desire for happiness is going to test the character of the man she's considering giving herself to.  If she doesn't, then she's either broken or simply not sane and neither attribute is one any Dom or Master should tolerate.


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RE: what is tpe? - 5/5/2011 1:13:30 AM   
MarcEsadrian


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Awareness
People create approximations for the current state of the evolving idea of a concept they have in their head. If that translates as "Master" and "slave" then it's an approximation which has meaning to them. Attempting to analyse this in any kind of absolute sense is doomed to fail.

I think you misunderstand. I don't think using terms like Master and slave to describe the components of TPE is the result of approximation, but good logic; it's in fact quite accurate to use these terms, as the initialism is synonymic with M/s.



quote:

ORIGINAL: Awareness
The slave obeys.  That's not responsibility, it's a simple law of consequences which dominates their lives.  The wise master will enforce it.  I don't see any value in dressing up this essential simplicity in something mystical.

That's interesting, as I possess your sentiment in reverse. Deeming a slave's commitment and obedience as "simple law" is what sounds mystical, if not glossing over things somewhat naively. She has responsibility to the dynamic through her engaged consensual behavior and toward maintaining her transparency; that's not window dressing or fancy mumbo jumbo; it's the complex psychological reality of adherence to ideological commitment, which extends beyond hot, obedient sex. Those who don't understand or appreciate this will, frankly, fail in honing and maintaining Master and slave outside of the bedroom.



quote:

ORIGINAL: Awareness
Ultimately in a society capable of sanctioning your actions in regards to your slave, any pretense that you have literal and ultimate power is mere role playing. 

It's not that I necessarily disagree with what you've said above (although this statement could certainly be explored), but the point being made was missed, I think, and perhaps that's my fault. I was illustrating that the mandate of complete responsibility juxtaposed against "total power" presents an additional logical contradiction. If I am ideally bound to having complete responsibility for the slave in all things, I logically do not possess "total power". The "reality check" cuts both ways; if total power is delusional and unrealistic, so too must be the notion of total responsibility being exchanged for it. Both ideas (total power and complete freedom from responsibility) are effectively problematic in the real world.

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RE: what is tpe? - 5/5/2011 1:26:32 AM   
WyldHrt


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quote:

Fuck, you make it sound like cancer.

Rather apt, that.
quote:

I honestly can't decide whether I actually dislike that analogy.

The analogy was yours, I just ran with it.


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RE: what is tpe? - 5/5/2011 6:35:25 AM   
MissImmortalPain


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Status: offline 		It's alright I don't feel like you are picking on me. I like to really get deep and explore how people think. Even if the person is myself. Yes for the most part I can not get emotional about an object. I can not "love" a thing. I use my cell phone, my computer, my cookware...but I can not love them. And just as I would feel oddly having sex with my frying pan I would feel odd having sex with a "slave" Sex for me is a very mental thing. As a pro Domme I don't let clients touch me because I (ok not nice to admit this) don't really view them as people. Sex with a partner has to be someone I am deeply commited to. Sex with myself...well masterbation comes in the from of meditation. It is a mental state I must reach not something begining with my body. As with most things my mind leads and my body follows. I have never found a place in my mind where a "slave" can follow or be thought of as something other then an object. Perhaps you said it best when you said "like a doll with a button" I don't want to live with, or for that matter most of the time have to deal with a doll and it's buttons. I don't want someone to just spit out what I have told them to say, how to move, how to think, etc. I want to be able to bring out of someone the best of what they are/can be. I do not see a slave evolving into a better being. Mind you I am not saying it is wrong. If someone truely has a slaves mindset and it makes them happy then cookies and milk for them, but it makes me nutty. Maybe because I could never see myself living in that manner. I don't really know how to explain it I just know it is how I think, and it works for me.

Oh and as for those email...yes I did get them. Most of them didn't like being told I am not free. I am not kind. I do not want to speak to someone that can not form more than a five word statement as to how flipping wonderful I am. I already know I'm wonderful tell me something I don't know (oh my don't I sound a tad catty there) Oh well, believe it or not I actually am a lot of fun with people that truely know who they are.


< Message edited by MissImmortalPain -- 5/5/2011 6:52:01 AM >

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RE: what is tpe? - 5/5/2011 6:54:58 AM   
ChatteParfaitt


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quote:

By all means, allow me to disabuse you of that idea.


An attempt at levity, Marc. I prefer not to take myself too seriously.

You said:

 . . .what was mysterious to me was how you found M/s to be an unrealistic fantasy and TPE to be something of a circular exchange in which the parties are "very spiritually attuned". . . .

I'm not a dictionary, and my mind does not think or sort like one. So I don't find M/s to be an unrealistic fantasy type dynamic, I see unrealistic fantasy type dynamics, and they (often) call themselves M/s. I see what I take to be a more fluid dynamic with a stronger spiritual component, and they (often) call themselves TPE. I was explaining my take on things, not assigning a dictionary definition.

Frankly, I don't like the term TPE all that much either, because of that word total.

In any case, we seem to more or less agree that any power dynamic without a certain degree of built in fluidity is doomed to failure, no matter what you want to call it. Or, I think we agree, it can be hard to read behind your attempt to pontificate and obfuscate as opposed to merely communicate.


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RE: what is tpe? - 5/5/2011 7:10:19 AM   
aromanholiday


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MissImmortalPain

It's alright I don't feel like you are picking on me.


Good. I am not. I don't go in that direction, usually, unless I am provoked first or see someone else being unfairly kicked. Thank you for explaining your attitudes about this. It makes more sense now to me.

quote:

As a pro Domme I don't let clients touch me because I (ok not nice to admit this) don't really view them as people."


I think that is an extremely wise attitude to take. It distances/protects you and preserves what is special for those you deem deserve it. I've had a number of good friends in the business, and one of the common maladies they suffered was a strong disconnect with their own sexuality due to their professional work. I personally thought this happened when someone put too much of themselves, their real selves, into the work. When it occurred, it was an energy and libido drain, and made them (not to mention their partners) confused and unhappy.

quote:

I don't want someone to just spit out what I have told them say, how to move, how to think, etc.


Even if you know it takes great thought and self-control, even considerable intelligence to follow such rigid structures? There's complex thought going on under the surface of most un-lobotomized people.
I fetishize (I guess that's the word for the intensity I feel) slavery and always have. For me it involves use and objectification but it is also extremely mental. I recognize and respect that not everybody enjoys speeding down those particular neuronic highways, however, and would never want to foist my needs on someone who found them distasteful. And to be frank, most people find them, at least in the way I express them, most distasteful. That's OK. It only takes one, as they say.

quote:

If someone truely has a slaves mindset and it makes them happy then cookies and milk for them, but it makes me nutty. Maybe because I could never see myself living in that manner. I don't really know how to explain it I just know it is how I think, and it works for me.


What a refreshingly direct statement. I think I understand what you're saying and I appreciate your honesty. I must admit, I feel the same way about shoe fetishists!

quote:

I already know I'm wonderful tell me something I don't know (oh my don't I sound a tad catty there)


Actually, not to me. That statement sounds like the substantiated (meaning there's substance to back it up; it is not empty) arrogance a naturally dominant person should feel. I really enjoy it when someone I'm interested in presents me with such a "challenge." It gives me an opportunity to do what I do best. :) I hear what you're saying about the majority of emails being duds. The other female dominants say that too. Some of the males, too. There are a lot of lukewarm submissives out there.

_____________________________

"Isn't it odd how we misunderstand the hidden unity of kindness and cruelty?"

My profile is not turned off. It is broken and I am too lazy to make a new one.

(in reply to MissImmortalPain)
Profile   Post #: 59
RE: what is tpe? - 5/5/2011 7:39:51 AM   
MissImmortalPain


Posts: 2440
Joined: 4/1/2011
Status: offline 		We agree on the first two things....yay. On to that other thing though. I said I could never see myself living that way(slave) but if you have seen my profile you will see that I started my life as a submissive. I never saw it as hard, demanding, requiring much of my brain to do as I was told. Again yes I know there are very demanding Dom/mes out there ( I am one of them) but still to me it never seemed very hard. Learn the person fill their needs = simple. I agree with you too about the thoughts that lurk under the common brain waves of the average person, but I don't want to have to beat a "slave" into telling what they are thinking either. It might be something I didn't think was worth the effort, then I might kill them. *laugh here* That was a joke. I still haven't figured out how to get away with killing someone and not ending up in jail. Errmm lets not talk about feet ok. One of the many things I truely can not stand is how many people ask me if they can kiss, lick, touch, my feet. I hate feet so blah touch mine and I will end up kicking you hahaha As to use and objectification these are things I love. I have an old friend that refuses to call me a domme mommy. He calls me military mother and says having to deal with me is a great deal harder then having to deal with the army, the navy, and the marines ( I don't like that though because marines are a pain the backside, but again oh well)

Oh and a funny note about the emails. I get many, more then I think anyone should infact, from other doms(most men but a few women) that for some silly reason think I would make a wonderful sub. To clear the thought up...yes I did make a wonderful sub. An amazing pet. For one Man an outstanding slut(his word not mine) I know what it means to bend to the will of another. I choose to have others bend for me. And I wouldn't really call anyone lukewarm. I think for a lot of people it just has more to do with kink. There is nothing wrong with kink if you want it in a bedroom and no where else. I just think people should be more careful about picking the word they use to say who/what they are.

_____________________________

It is always by way of pain that we arrive at pleasure.

We must all go through a right of passage,and it must be physical, it must be painful,and it must leave a mark.

(in reply to aromanholiday)
Profile   Post #: 60
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