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RE: If You are Afraid of Muslims.......... - 5/13/2011 7:06:43 PM

WantsOfTheFlesh

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub
As far as the IRA they were on our terrorist list I believe and I still cannot see how the IRA should be linked to your thread.

You didn't have any presidencies who made much of an effort to treat the fenians like they were on your terrorist list, put it that way. Nothing was done even when it emerged that they were receiving funding from evil middle eastern anti Americans as well as idiots in the mid west who thought that they're Irish despite their grandparents having fled the country to get away from the troubles.

The "troubles" they were getting away from were induced by the English but the reality is that many of the ancestors of Irish Americans left Ireland because of extreme economic hardship so bad some refer to it as an intermittent Irish Holocaust although I feel that would be an unfair comparison with the actual Holocaust. I think this thread suggests many English like to point the accusatory finger at the Americans but they have yet to reconcile themselves to their very ugly past. Lets please remember the British record in the North was appalling. There was obvious collusion between British forces and unionist terrorists resulting in the murder of innocents, and the British secret forces struck a civilian target in Dublin in 1973 (a busy street) killing 30 civilians so lets be glad there is relative peace now rather than keep complaining about the IRA.

< Message edited by WantsOfTheFlesh -- 5/13/2011 7:10:38 PM >

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RE: If You are Afraid of Muslims.......... - 5/13/2011 7:12:12 PM

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You wouldnt listen, you have already proved that, its pointless.
right down to agreeing with "gentlemen Terrorists"
For people who have lived thru their bombings your are more than a tad ignorant of their reality

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RE: If You are Afraid of Muslims.......... - 5/13/2011 7:15:06 PM

WantsOfTheFlesh

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic
You wouldnt listen, you have already proved that, its pointless.
right down to agreeing with "gentlemen Terrorists"
For people who have lived thru their bombings your are more than a tad ignorant of their reality

Lucy we'll only be able to have a reasoned exchange of views if you think about what I said rather than what you think I said. I never tried to minimise the horror of terrorism.

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RE: If You are Afraid of Muslims.......... - 5/13/2011 8:04:52 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SilverMark

I have read most of these posts and all I can think is that one man's Terrorist, is another man's Freedom Fighter...Have never really feared Muslims, Hindus, Siekhs, Mormons, Catholics....But those Baptists...they are a scary bunch!

My! 6 pages of blah! blah! blah! about terrorism and this seems to be the only time someone has actually thought about what the term actually means. It's not an easy task to define terrorism, and the above effort is about as accurate as it gets. See wiki on the topic for instance

Interestingly in our times, Nobel Peace Prize winners include Mandela, MacBride*, Arafat and Begin - all ex-'terrorists'; South Africa was liberated from apartheid by 'terrorists' and Israel was founded by and led by 'terrorists' for many years. Hamas and Hezbollah, both officially terrorist groups, also run extensive health hospital and welfare systems, hardly 'terrorist' activities.

So I'm not sure that the term 'terrorist' means anything substantial any more, apart from its obvious use as a term of political abuse. And there's precious little I see 'terrorists' doing that I don't see quite a few States doing with relative impunity - and I'm including the Western democracies that most of us inhabit on that list.

* Sean MacBride, noted jurist and founder of Amnesty International was also a leading IRA figure for many decades, rising to Chief of Staff (ie. #1) at one point.

< Message edited by tweakabelle -- 5/13/2011 8:12:06 PM >

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RE: If You are Afraid of Muslims.......... - 5/13/2011 8:12:20 PM

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there is no specific crime attached to it.

the root of terror is to frighten.

so if you are fearful you can report someone for committing an act of terrorism.

Now the news media and the guv sure frightened the hell out of people didnt they.....small world.

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RE: If You are Afraid of Muslims.......... - 5/14/2011 5:06:38 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: WantsOfTheFlesh

quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub
As far as the IRA they were on our terrorist list I believe and I still cannot see how the IRA should be linked to your thread.

You didn't have any presidencies who made much of an effort to treat the fenians like they were on your terrorist list, put it that way. Nothing was done even when it emerged that they were receiving funding from evil middle eastern anti Americans as well as idiots in the mid west who thought that they're Irish despite their grandparents having fled the country to get away from the troubles.

The "troubles" they were getting away from were induced by the English but the reality is that many of the ancestors of Irish Americans left Ireland because of extreme economic hardship so bad some refer to it as an intermittent Irish Holocaust although I feel that would be an unfair comparison with the actual Holocaust. I think this thread suggests many English like to point the accusatory finger at the Americans but they have yet to reconcile themselves to their very ugly past. Lets please remember the British record in the North was appalling. There was obvious collusion between British forces and unionist terrorists resulting in the murder of innocents, and the British secret forces struck a civilian target in Dublin in 1973 (a busy street) killing 30 civilians so lets be glad there is relative peace now rather than keep complaining about the IRA.

Nothing to do with my point, which is that no government you've had has taken any action against American IRA supporters. In the light of that, Butch's claim that you've historically treated them as terrorists isn't very convincing.

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RE: If You are Afraid of Muslims.......... - 5/14/2011 5:27:47 AM

WantsOfTheFlesh

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead

quote:

ORIGINAL: WantsOfTheFlesh

quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub
As far as the IRA they were on our terrorist list I believe and I still cannot see how the IRA should be linked to your thread.

You didn't have any presidencies who made much of an effort to treat the fenians like they were on your terrorist list, put it that way. Nothing was done even when it emerged that they were receiving funding from evil middle eastern anti Americans as well as idiots in the mid west who thought that they're Irish despite their grandparents having fled the country to get away from the troubles.

The "troubles" they were getting away from were induced by the English but the reality is that many of the ancestors of Irish Americans left Ireland because of extreme economic hardship so bad some refer to it as an intermittent Irish Holocaust although I feel that would be an unfair comparison with the actual Holocaust. I think this thread suggests many English like to point the accusatory finger at the Americans but they have yet to reconcile themselves to their very ugly past. Lets please remember the British record in the North was appalling. There was obvious collusion between British forces and unionist terrorists resulting in the murder of innocents, and the British secret forces struck a civilian target in Dublin in 1973 (a busy street) killing 30 civilians so lets be glad there is relative peace now rather than keep complaining about the IRA.

Nothing to do with my point, which is that no government you've had has taken any action against American IRA supporters. In the light of that, Butch's claim that you've historically treated them as terrorists isn't very convincing.

The point you made didn’t interest me as much as your assertion about the ancestors of the Irish Americans “fleeing” the Troubles which is misleading factually. They fled the vicious economic oppression the British imposed on the Irish people which largely gave rise to the IRB/IRA, hence their sympathy with those groups is reasonable. That’s why I said what I said. If you are giving out about the IRA, and talk about those that “fled” then it behoves you to mention the source of that trouble – your nation. Remember there was relatively little trouble with catholics before the devastation of the famine.

It is wrong to suggest the US didn’t take action against the American IRA or NORAID. Its the opposite but didn't act to prevent fundraising as fully as they could. Questions could be raised about that (maybe politicians weren't anxious to enforce those rules since there is a large voting contingent that identifies with being Irish) but the same can be said about numerous US groups that fundraise for Islamicism.

< Message edited by WantsOfTheFlesh -- 5/14/2011 5:30:13 AM >

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RE: If You are Afraid of Muslims.......... - 5/14/2011 5:35:25 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: WantsOfTheFlesh
It is wrong to suggest the US didn’t take action against the American IRA or NORAID. Its the opposite but didn't act to prevent fundraising as fully as they could.

I think the phrase you're hunting for is "at all" not "as fully as they could".

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RE: If You are Afraid of Muslims.......... - 5/14/2011 6:10:19 AM

WantsOfTheFlesh

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead

quote:

ORIGINAL: WantsOfTheFlesh
It is wrong to suggest the US didn’t take action against the American IRA or NORAID. Its the opposite but didn't act to prevent fundraising as fully as they could.

I think the phrase you're hunting for is "at all" not "as fully as they could".

Did they not put numerous people on trial for being involved with arms dealing and did they not force NORAID to name the IRA as its foreign principle?

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RE: If You are Afraid of Muslims.......... - 5/14/2011 6:35:52 AM

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From: Tamaris
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Fast Reply

Doesn't anyone get it yet, what our countries do to other countries via their foreign policy, has fuck all to do with the people of that country. Ireland, was it the man in the street who imposed and furthered the oppression of Ireland, no it wasn't, yet it was the man in the street that reaped the reprecussions, death and destruction for another man's crimes. America and Al Quaeda their crime was visited on guess who, the common or garden man on the street, the very same people who the IRA took their agression out on, in both cases, did it alter the foreign policies that caused the terrorism, no it didn't, nor would it, because those targeted are not the policy makers and implementers. Now of those foreign policies, do they aid us in our day to day lives, and are they worth the loss of liberties once held and the fear that we could be killed at anytime anywhere by anyone striking back at a country because of a few who make, implement and benefit from their foreign policies?

I always thought it was the duty of a government to protect it's people, not expose them to risk that would not otherwise be there.

It seems to me powerful entities use our governments for their benefit, we pay in taxes and blood and others not exposed to the dangers reap the rewards and yet currently we are all in a recession or economic downturn with people losing jobs and homes and quite possibly starving, so just how are we benefitting from the results of others overseas policies ?

It's simple, we are not, but we are too stupid and trusting of government to see it.

Remember for a country to conquer other countries, it first must conquer it's own, we are conquered and not by that we were told to fear, the outsider, the foreigner, but the insidious insider, our own people, those in positions of power, wealth and influence.

As it was in England at the time of the troubles, many English believed British policy towards Ireland was completely wrong, but it didn't stop the people being bombed, the IRA were actually killing sympathisers along with non sympathisers in one go, people who had zero influence over the policies of their masters.

Perhaps the same is happening again but in America this time, compare the scenario and seek the truth.

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RE: If You are Afraid of Muslims.......... - 5/14/2011 6:46:59 AM

WantsOfTheFlesh

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aneirin
Doesn't anyone get it yet, what our countries do to other countries via their foreign policy, has fuck all to do with the people of that country. Ireland, was it the man in the street who imposed and furthered the oppression of Ireland, no it wasn't, yet it was the man in the street that reaped the reprecussions, death and destruction for another man's crimes. America and Al Quaeda their crime was visited on guess who, the common or garden man on the street, the very same people who the IRA took their agression out on, in both cases, did it alter the foreign policies that caused the terrorism, no it didn't, nor would it, because those targeted are not the policy makers and implementers. Now of those foreign policies, do they aid us in our day to day lives, and are they worth the loss of liberties once held and the fear that we could be killed at anytime anywhere by anyone striking back at a country because of a few who make, implement and benefit from their foreign policies?

Indeed many innocents in Britain were killed by the IRA The 1974 pub bombings spring to mind as particularly nasty but their targets were principally the machinations of the establishment. That is where they diverge with Islamicist terror. The IRA campaign didn't achieve reunion with Ireland but it did at least force an eventual resolution to the rather vicious unionist sectarianism which had resulted in a very real oppression of catholics. They were second class citizens denied a meaningful ability to vote due to gerrymandering.

quote:

As it was in England at the time of the troubles, many English believed British policy towards Ireland was completely wrong, but it didn't stop the people being bombed, the IRA were actually killing sympathisers along with non sympathisers in one go, people who had zero influence over the policies of their masters.

No I don't think that is correct. Not saying there weren't people in England who didn't sympathesise with the Irish but contempt of the Irish was a well known phenomenon (e.g. No Irish, no blacks, no dogs) and the IRA were loathed well before the restarting of the troubles in the 60's. The media in Britain was almost blanket hatred for Irish Republicanism too.

< Message edited by WantsOfTheFlesh -- 5/14/2011 6:48:58 AM >

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RE: If You are Afraid of Muslims.......... - 5/14/2011 7:04:44 AM

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From: Tamaris
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You see, of the youth that were born in those times, just like the youth that are born in these times, they tend to have a different perspective than the all knowing adults. The media, the tv news and news rags, know any of the youth that indulges in that, or have they got better things to do ?

Look at the young, they are the furture.

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Everything we are is the result of what we have thought, the mind is everything, what we think, we become - Guatama Buddha

Conservatism is distrust of people tempered by fear - William Gladstone

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RE: If You are Afraid of Muslims.......... - 5/14/2011 7:39:08 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: WantsOfTheFlesh

quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead

quote:

ORIGINAL: WantsOfTheFlesh
It is wrong to suggest the US didn’t take action against the American IRA or NORAID. Its the opposite but didn't act to prevent fundraising as fully as they could.

I think the phrase you're hunting for is "at all" not "as fully as they could".

Did they not put numerous people on trial for being involved with arms dealing and did they not force NORAID to name the IRA as its foreign principle?

No, they didn't.

_____________________________

I like to think he was eaten by rats, in the dark, during a fog. It's what he would have wanted...
(Simon R Green on the late James Herbert)

(in reply to WantsOfTheFlesh)

RE: If You are Afraid of Muslims.......... - 5/14/2011 11:35:33 AM

WantsOfTheFlesh

Posts: 1226
Joined: 3/3/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead

quote:

ORIGINAL: WantsOfTheFlesh

quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead

quote:

ORIGINAL: WantsOfTheFlesh
It is wrong to suggest the US didn’t take action against the American IRA or NORAID. Its the opposite but didn't act to prevent fundraising as fully as they could.

I think the phrase you're hunting for is "at all" not "as fully as they could".

Did they not put numerous people on trial for being involved with arms dealing and did they not force NORAID to name the IRA as its foreign principle?

No, they didn't.

Sorry to disagree but yes they did - it should come up if you just do a quick Google search.

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RE: If You are Afraid of Muslims.......... - 5/14/2011 6:01:21 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: WantsOfTheFlesh

The "troubles" they were getting away from were induced by the English but the reality is that many of the ancestors of Irish Americans left Ireland because of extreme economic hardship so bad some refer to it as an intermittent Irish Holocaust although I feel that would be an unfair comparison with the actual Holocaust. I think this thread suggests many English like to point the accusatory finger at the Americans but they have yet to reconcile themselves to their very ugly past. Lets please remember the British record in the North was appalling. There was obvious collusion between British forces and unionist terrorists resulting in the murder of innocents, and the British secret forces struck a civilian target in Dublin in 1973 (a busy street) killing 30 civilians so lets be glad there is relative peace now rather than keep complaining about the IRA.

Nice assertions regards the 1973 bombing but Justice Barron ( Irish Supreme Court Judge) found no evidence of collusion in his report. It is possible though, that there were links between a few rogue elements within the Northern Irish Police and Military, since many of them were Protestants. There certainly wasnt any sanction from mainland UK, since the whole aim of that bombing was to scupper the Stormont agreement made between Ireland and Britain. I also think that while you have a point that the IRA could carry out large scale bomb attacks, hundreds have died in lesser attacks, both in Northern Ireland and on the mainland. Many of these attacks had little or no warning.

Its a nice folklore to link the 1970 troubles to the potato famine of the late 1800s, but realistically you miss a few facts. Troops were sent over to Ireland initially to protect Catholics from Protestant mobs. The troubles started after the formation of the UVF, sometime in the late sixties. Several attempts at a solution by the British government have been turned down by one side or the other, even now there is violence by a few who are against the Good Friday Agreement. Until both religious factions in Ulster want peace, there will be no peace.

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RE: If You are Afraid of Muslims.......... - 5/14/2011 6:54:20 PM

WantsOfTheFlesh

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

quote:

ORIGINAL: WantsOfTheFlesh
The "troubles" they were getting away from were induced by the English but the reality is that many of the ancestors of Irish Americans left Ireland because of extreme economic hardship so bad some refer to it as an intermittent Irish Holocaust although I feel that would be an unfair comparison with the actual Holocaust. I think this thread suggests many English like to point the accusatory finger at the Americans but they have yet to reconcile themselves to their very ugly past. Lets please remember the British record in the North was appalling. There was obvious collusion between British forces and unionist terrorists resulting in the murder of innocents, and the British secret forces struck a civilian target in Dublin in 1973 (a busy street) killing 30 civilians so lets be glad there is relative peace now rather than keep complaining about the IRA.

Nice assertions regards the 1973 bombing but Justice Barron ( Irish Supreme Court Judge) found no evidence of collusion in his report. It is possible though, that there were links between a few rogue elements within the Northern Irish Police and Military, since many of them were Protestants. There certainly wasnt any sanction from mainland UK, since the whole aim of that bombing was to scupper the Stormont agreement made between Ireland and Britain. I also think that while you have a point that the IRA could carry out large scale bomb attacks, hundreds have died in lesser attacks, both in Northern Ireland and on the mainland. Many of these attacks had little or no warning.

Most attacks featured prior warning. As far as I know the Irish report asserted there was a possibility attacks may have involved the British authorities in some respect but without evidence a determination could not be made. I'm told it is something of an open secret that the British were involved. Many seemed to read the event as a warning from the British authorities to the Irish government to clamp down on the IRA. There may well be truth in that for an attack of that scale was never repeated. Two Irish police that observed likely suspects suggested it wasn't the usual suspects. Its thought the attacks were too sophisticated for the Unionists at the time since they were a bit behind the IRA in terms of ability.

quote:

Its a nice folklore to link the 1970 troubles to the potato famine of the late 1800s, but realistically you miss a few facts. Troops were sent over to Ireland initially to protect Catholics from Protestant mobs. The troubles started after the formation of the UVF, sometime in the late sixties. Several attempts at a solution by the British government have been turned down by one side or the other, even now there is violence by a few who are against the Good Friday Agreement. Until both religious factions in Ulster want peace, there will be no peace.

I don't see how it can be folklore to say these issues are related even if distantly but if you look back you'll see I was responding to Moonhead over his claims that the Irish fled to America over the "Troubles" which I took to mean conflict before the founding of the Republic. True, the troops were sent over to protect the katliks but fatally were under the governance of Stormont which caused a conflict of interests. If I may say so I think your view of present circumstances is a bit bleak as I think there is genuine peace today. There is some conflict with the 32 County Sovernity Movement but otherwise the achievements by both sides has been remarkable with the DUP and Sein Fein sharing power over time.

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RE: If You are Afraid of Muslims.......... - 5/15/2011 2:49:17 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: WantsOfTheFlesh

Most attacks featured prior warning. As far as I know the Irish report asserted there was a possibility attacks may have involved the British authorities in some respect but without evidence a determination could not be made. I'm told it is something of an open secret that the British were involved. Many seemed to read the event as a warning from the British authorities to the Irish government to clamp down on the IRA. There may well be truth in that for an attack of that scale was never repeated. Two Irish police that observed likely suspects suggested it wasn't the usual suspects. Its thought the attacks were too sophisticated for the Unionists at the time since they were a bit behind the IRA in terms of ability.

You may be correct in what you say, although my hunch is that if it were true it would have leaked out over the years since.

quote:

I don't see how it can be folklore to say these issues are related even if distantly but if you look back you'll see I was responding to Moonhead over his claims that the Irish fled to America over the "Troubles" which I took to mean conflict before the founding of the Republic. True, the troops were sent over to protect the katliks but fatally were under the governance of Stormont which caused a conflict of interests. If I may say so I think your view of present circumstances is a bit bleak as I think there is genuine peace today. There is some conflict with the 32 County Sovernity Movement but otherwise the achievements by both sides has been remarkable with the DUP and Sein Fein sharing power over time.

You also have the "Real IRA" active in terrorism and I read about yet another splinter group that has emerged. I know things are better but deaths and injuries have not gone away, which was my point. I dont feel you can go back to the great famine and yet not go back to the whole Catholic/Protestant debate. If you do the latter, you then need to consider not just the British Isles but also the situation in mainland Europe at the time.

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RE: If You are Afraid of Muslims.......... - 5/15/2011 4:21:37 AM

WantsOfTheFlesh

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

quote:

I don't see how it can be folklore to say these issues are related even if distantly but if you look back you'll see I was responding to Moonhead over his claims that the Irish fled to America over the "Troubles" which I took to mean conflict before the founding of the Republic. True, the troops were sent over to protect the katliks but fatally were under the governance of Stormont which caused a conflict of interests. If I may say so I think your view of present circumstances is a bit bleak as I think there is genuine peace today. There is some conflict with the 32 County Sovernity Movement but otherwise the achievements by both sides has been remarkable with the DUP and Sein Fein sharing power over time.

You also have the "Real IRA" active in terrorism and I read about yet another splinter group that has emerged. I know things are better but deaths and injuries have not gone away, which was my point. I dont feel you can go back to the great famine and yet not go back to the whole Catholic/Protestant debate. If you do the latter, you then need to consider not just the British Isles but also the situation in mainland Europe at the time.

You're correct that the Real IRA is a significant problem - their political wing is the "32 County Sovereignty Movement" which a few hard socialists have allied themselves with. On the unionist side I think a mob attacked a train to Dublin that nearly caused a lot of deaths but overall I feel the solution has worked remarkably well. You're right that the issues in Ireland are partly an extension of what happened in Europe with the emergence of protestantism. It led to a lot of nasty wars like the 30 years war but it could be argued that events were also somewhat different in Ireland, that the suppression in Ireland was particularly vicious with Cromwell and it also went down cultural and racial/indigenous lines.

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