RE: Speech

RE: Speech (Full Version)

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RiotGirl -> RE: Speech (5/12/2006 8:38:02 AM)
His Rules = ) RULE 1. A slave should never capitalize any reference to herself, even though there may be an instance where a sentence is started with a small letter. Appropriate reconstruction of sentences can avoid that situation. EXAMPLES: i, me, mine, hers, her, our, her first name. RULE 2. A slave should always fully capitalize the first letter of any word that refers to her Dominant person, the person with whom she is in a relationship. EXAMPLES: Sir, Master, He, His, Top, Him, You, Yours. RULE 3. A slave should always capitalize the first letter of any word that refers to her Dominant person and the slave jointly. EXAMPLES: Us, Our, We. RULE 4. A slave should whenever possible, refer to herself in the third person. EXAMPLES: Your slave, this slave, slave name RULE 5. A slave should always open and close a letter to her Master with an appropriate title or reference to his position over her. EXAMPLES: Master, Sir, my One, Lord, Your, Yours.

thetammyjo -> RE: Speech (5/12/2006 8:43:47 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Padriag quote: ORIGINAL: thetammyjo Not to be bitchy but if your master has told you to use the 3rd person he needs to be the one to tell you how to use it or give you the resources to find out himself. It is his rule and he should take responsiblity for setting it all down and teaching it to you. Tammy nails it right there. If he expects something, its his job to define exactly what that is as clearly as is necessary. Which means he needs to sit down with you and teach you exactly what he wants. I'd don't generally require third person (sometimes in specific play situations), though I do use speech restrictions and protocols. I also have that stuff written down and when I train a girl I teach her precisely what I expect. This is what your owner needs to do, he needs to sit down and decide exactly what protocols he wants to you to use. They can be whatever he wants to make up, it doesn't have to be the way anyone else does it. Then he needs to write it down (I find that really helps me fix it in my mind and makes it easier for me to teach, plus the notes are good for both to refer too later when there are questions) and then teach you. Writing them down is a great idea and it is something I do myself. It also provides a handy reference when you are learning and later on if you have questions. Plus anything I lay down as a rule I feel I better be able to do myself and make sure is followed by knowing them very very well. It's like the slave positions I have -- I can do them, I know what the reason is for each of them, and I could recite them and perform them at any time myself. No one can be sloppy with them around me because are my rules. With grammer or speech rules the person who puts them into effect needs to know them well herself before she can teach them to others.

Najakcharmer -> RE: Speech (5/12/2006 8:49:59 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: RiotGirl hiya - its quite obvious that the majority here does not like 3rd person speech. They also dont like the whole W/we, T/they O/our, stuff either. Granted its the majority. Which doesnt really matter a whit, atleast to this one. Dun care if others like it or not. This thread isnt about debating the pro's and con's or to vent how crappy it is, how it annoys you, ect. Nor is to speak about your "view" on it. Or to hear about how its a hard limit and you think its terrible. That doesnt matter. Plus, there's like 3 other threads on that already. Everyone has posted their view on it already most likely. What you do with another consenting adult in a M/s relationship is up to you guys. You guys can do anything you like - he can keep you naked and in collar and chains, use you any time he likes, flog you, make you talk like a Teletubby, etc. Well, the latter might be a hard limit for anybody, but some people are extreme players, so who knows. Anyhow you guys can do all of this and more inside a M/s relationship, but if he decides that you're going to do them at the local mall, then you involve nonconsenting others in your kink and that's a bit of a problem. Taking the play outside the relationship and involving other people who are watching or participating in the dynamics can be a bit of a tricky situation. It can be managed with everybody's consent, but the trick is getting everybody's consent. The usual end result of naked flogging at the mall is an inescapable bondage and caging scene at the local hoosegaw, of the sort you don't want. Most people understand that it is inadvisable, not to mention contrary to Martha Stewart's good advice, to do their kinky thing in public places. The end result of taking your "special acting-out behaviors" from your M/s roles into a public BDSM community forum is less harsh than taking it to the mall, but you may still annoy some people who are just here for the shopping and didn't consent to participating in your scene. Your Master can make the choice to continue annoying people if he wants to, but at least now he'll know if he reads this why people get annoyed. Some folks don't like being used as props for other people's scenes without being asked first, and that's their take on it. Me, if I'm asked to help train a slave, I'll do so gleefully, and help hold them to whatever standards the Master or Mistress wants to impose. But I really do require the courtesy of being asked. I am not a drive-through McDomme's and I hate being treated that way. Not all people who use third-person speech make me feel treated that way, but they can if it's really overtly and blatantly pointed in my direction and the volume gets turned up too high. Which you aren't doing, so more power to ya. quote: What this one wants to know is the Rules for 3rd person speech. Just the *Rules. Some of them, any of them, all of them? Master, obviously has told her, He would like her to use it. So of course when told to do something you do it the best to your ability. Um, you can probably find those Rules* in the same book that has the 87 True Slave Positions and the One True Way to run all BDSM relationships. You know, the Big Leather Book of Answers. No really, there are no Rules. None. Nada. They don't exist. As dominants, we make up shit that we wanna see our slaves doing, either because it makes us happy or it fits the individual psychology of the slave and his or her training. You gotta ask him what he wants, because the English language has some very clear Rules already about how to use pronouns and capitalization. These are not them. quote: When saying "Your slave" do you cap the Y cos its in reference to Him.. or not as its sort of in reference to you? It is "His" slave.. but it is also "you" LOL So is it "Your slave" or "your slave"??? Personally she thinks its Your slave.. but dunno.. When you are referring to royalty or deity, You and Your are always capitalized. When you are in a kinky relationship with some guy who wants you to refer to him like royalty or deity, I have no idea, you gotta ask the kinky guy. quote: Few other things too.. but at the moment she cant remember them. So if anyone by chance knows the general rules, rules or outlines.. that'd be fantastic. Or fabulous as Culkin said on The Party Monster! Oh.. and please no guesses.. cos that would suck to have a wrong guess, ya know? The only way not to guess is to ask him specifically what he wants. None of us know. You could try to research what they do in England when referring to the Queen, if the mental image of your Master in a tiara doesn't make you giggle too hard.

Delightb32 -> RE: Speech (5/12/2006 8:51:41 AM)
What the heck do you want to know about third person speech of not the proper use of third person speech? Third person means using he, she, it. That's it. There's nothing more. The rest, including the proper form of verbs to use falls under the rules of grammar. So, if you don't want to know grammar, what do you want? Oh, and as for beginning a sentence with "nor," I let that slide under poetic licence mainly because I didn't know how to fix it and keep your meaning.

thetammyjo -> RE: Speech (5/12/2006 8:53:43 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: RiotGirl His Rules = ) RULE 1. A slave should never capitalize any reference to herself, even though there may be an instance where a sentence is started with a small letter. Appropriate reconstruction of sentences can avoid that situation. EXAMPLES: i, me, mine, hers, her, our, her first name. RULE 2. A slave should always fully capitalize the first letter of any word that refers to her Dominant person, the person with whom she is in a relationship. EXAMPLES: Sir, Master, He, His, Top, Him, You, Yours. RULE 3. A slave should always capitalize the first letter of any word that refers to her Dominant person and the slave jointly. EXAMPLES: Us, Our, We. RULE 4. A slave should whenever possible, refer to herself in the third person. EXAMPLES: Your slave, this slave, slave name RULE 5. A slave should always open and close a letter to her Master with an appropriate title or reference to his position over her. EXAMPLES: Master, Sir, my One, Lord, Your, Yours. Honestly, RiotGirl, none of these seem to relate to using 3rd person speech with anyone other than your master. They might but I personally would be confused on how to write to others or talk to others using them. Maybe you could do some practices at home, write out a few sample dialogues or posts you might make and ask him for feedback? Language is complicated. It may require more than five rules to get it laid out for you so that its clear. I'm guessing though that situations will always arise where you think "wtf?" and need more clarification.

Mercnbeth -> RE: Speech (5/12/2006 8:55:36 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: RiotGirl hiya - its quite obvious that the majority here does not like 3rd person speech. They also dont like the whole W/we, T/they O/our, stuff either. Granted its the majority. Which doesnt really matter a whit, atleast to this one. Dun care if others like it or not. This thread isnt about debating the pro's and con's or to vent how crappy it is, how it annoys you, ect. Nor is to speak about your "view" on it. Or to hear about how its a hard limit and you think its terrible. That doesnt matter. Plus, there's like 3 other threads on that already. Everyone has posted their view on it already most likely. What this one wants to know is the Rules for 3rd person speech. Just the *Rules. Some of them, any of them, all of them? {Master, obviously has told her, He would like her to use it.} (excessive use of pronouns....better: Master, obviously, has decided she use it) So of course when told to do something you do it the best to your ability. the rule for this slave is pretty simple: Upon acceptance of this life all that this slave's is belongs to Master, therefore no longer will the words "my", "me", "mine" and "I" be appropriate.* As a possession of Master, all references will consider this. this slave does not refer to her Master as "my Master", just "Master". this slave tries to use as few references to herself as possible and talks about herself as little as possible when speaking...for example, if Master asks His slave her opinion, she doesn't respond with "Your slave thinks....." she just says what she thinks. she's got questions [:)] (the use of the pronoun here is optional....this slave would have written: Now for the questions[:)]) When saying "Your slave" do you cap the Y cos its in reference to Him.. or not as its sort of in reference to you? It is "His" slave.. but it is also "you" LOL So is it "Your slave" or "your slave"??? Personally she thinks its Your slave.. but dunno.. (it is "His slave" when NOT speaking or writing to Him, but about His property. it is "Your slave" when you communicate with Him.) Few other things too.. but at the moment she cant remember them. So if anyone by chance knows the general rules, rules or outlines.. that'd be fantastic. Or fabulous as Culkin said on The Party Monster! Oh.. and please no guesses.. cos that would suck to have a wrong guess, ya know? as promised, in this slave's best teacher red pen!!![;)] Lady Bladewing has given some excellent advice, the best of which is practice, practice!!!! you seem to be off to a fantastic start, bon chance, sweetie!!!

RiotGirl -> RE: Speech (5/12/2006 8:59:21 AM)
Najak - your post was pretty funny and has gotten a few chuckles!! Oh on the "nor" Though its still not grammatically correct! <grins> Actually this one was just curious on what others do or if there is any standard or protocol. Maybe work it into Master's rules. she knows He never minds if she takes initiative in following His rules = )

RiotGirl -> RE: Speech (5/12/2006 9:06:40 AM)
Thank you thank you beth!! Going to apply everything you've said and is doing so = ) But Ah ha! His slave, likes the " all references consider this" which would mean her "this one" doesnt... Thank you tons.

RiotGirl -> RE: Speech (5/12/2006 9:10:27 AM)
Light bulb - Consider the hypocrisy of it all. You all think its imposing upon you, the lifestyle one chooses to live. Yet here she see's others imposing their standards on 3rd person speech. Basically saying, "i think its wrong, so i dont think it should be done"

Delightb32 -> RE: Speech (5/12/2006 9:11:52 AM)
Actually, because you want to argue with me, I will explain why the use of "nor" at the beginning of a sentence is acceptable. Many teachers of lower level grammar classes have attempted to convince students to stop using coordinating conjunctions (e.g., and, but, for, nor, or, so, yet) to begin sentences. Generally, coordinating conjunctions are used to join words, phrases, and clauses that are balanced as logical equals and are used to coordinate two independent clauses. Because (by the way, many teacher tell students not to begin a sentence with "because") coordinating conjunctions are used to connect elements within a sentence, sometimes people are discouraged from starting sentences with coordinating conjunctions. However, the real mission is to help their students learn to avoid sentence fragments such as, "And smart, too." As long as you follow a coordinating conjunction with an independent clause (which was done in your sentence), beginning with a coordinating conjunction is fine, especially in informal writing. http://www2.ncsu.edu:8010/ncsu/grammar/Conjunc3.html

RiotGirl -> RE: Speech (5/12/2006 9:14:20 AM)
quote: Actually, because you want to argue with me, I will explain why the use of "nor" at the beginning of a sentence is acceptable. Many teachers of lower level grammar classes have attempted to convince students to stop using coordinating conjunctions (e.g., and, but, for, nor, or, so, yet) to begin sentences. Generally, coordinating conjunctions are used to join words, phrases, and clauses that are balanced as logical equals and are used to coordinate two independent clauses. Because (by the way, many teacher tell students not to begin a sentence with "because") coordinating conjunctions are used to connect elements within a sentence, sometimes people are discouraged from starting sentences with coordinating conjunctions. However, the real mission is to help their students learn to avoid sentence fragments such as, "And smart, too." As long as you follow a coordinating conjunction with an independent clause (which was done in your sentence), beginning with a coordinating conjunction is fine, especially in informal writing. aaaaaah.. Well this one actually didnt get a HS education so she works on what she knows.. and remembers learning that in 6th grade. LOL Course she did take a few english classes in college.. but she didnt pay attention one whit = ) But what also hammers (hampers) the grammer abit is the fact that she has dyslexia running through her. Which means she misses words, spells one word as another word.. ect. Its not too bad.. yet does make her look illiterate.. which is why when writing appropriately she has to re read and edit many many times as sometimes for some ODD reason, she does not see the absence of words, or she doesnt see extra words. Though, as a child, her mother sat down and made her read out loud and would make her continually look for the words the she was missing.. yet continually missing them until her Mother pointed them out and they magically appeared. Course doctors say its impossible to be "slightly" dyslexic.. but her brother and father are the same like the second paragraph. She wrote "hammers" and now see's it.. and its supposed to be "hampers"

mnottertail -> RE: Speech (5/12/2006 9:17:23 AM)
And I agree with this. LOL, Ron

RiotGirl -> RE: Speech (5/12/2006 9:25:55 AM)
if everyone used "proper grammer" all the time we'd be robots.. if everyone was alike.. plus its more entertaining to read individualized writing styles

LadiesBladewing -> RE: Speech (5/12/2006 10:29:49 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: RiotGirl Course doctors say its impossible to be "slightly" dyslexic.. but her brother and father are the same Actually, there are degrees and types of dyslexia. I am mildly dyslexic. If I am tired, or unable to focus for one reason or another, I will tend to make spelling errors like accidentally doubling the wrong letter in a word, running words together, or being unable to remember which words are "ie" and which words are "ei", just to name a few of my most common issues. My mate is -very- dyslexic. She is unable to recognize short vowel sounds as unique entities, so she is unable to distinguish auditorily between A/E, E/I, A/O, O/U and is abysmal at the vowel blends. She has a horrible time spelling. In addition, she can only read in the most basic fonts. If you change the font on a word (even just italicizing the word), she no longer recognizes it as the same word. For the same reason you mentioned, she was not diagnosed until adulthood, and went through her whole school career struggling, because her dyslexia wasn't "bad enough" to warrent "assistance". So as an adult, she learned that she is both visually and auditorily dyslexic, and finally obtained the tools to be able to work with her challenge. This being said, she's a PhD biochemist, and is preparing for her boards as a homeopathic doctor. My son is -extremely- dyslexic. He is unable to recognize letters by sight -- especially if they can be flip-flopped around (p/d, g/q, p/q, b/q). He also cannot recognize vowels by sound, nor can he recognize vowel pairs. He's preparing to graduate college in December, but it's been a long haul. We caught him early, and homeschooled him until he grasped the tools to enable him to read and even write with a measure of success, but when he is in quick-post mediums like boards and email, it is almost more trouble than it's worth, in his mind, for him to have to censor every paragraph for grammar and spelling. Lady Zephyr

KittenWithaTwist -> RE: Speech (5/12/2006 10:57:07 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: RiotGirl if everyone used "proper grammer" all the time we'd be robots.. if everyone was alike.. plus its more entertaining to read individualized writing styles That isn't really accurate. People use proper grammar when speaking the English language to communicate with others. If we communicate accurately, we are more likely to express our thoughts, views, opinions, and data regarding our world and our lives in a concise and clear way. For instance, if I said "Yo bich, I got your sit on the QT bada bing", other people might look at me and say, "Um...pardon?" However, if I said, "Hi Martha, I have your bag in the back of my car", "Martha" might understand that her bag is ...in the back of my car. Of course, it's also inaccurate because most people speak in different dialects or have accents in their speech. If we were all robotic, we would all have the same dialect with no accent (or only the accent of the creator of said robot). I don't particularly enjoy "individualized" writing styles, if the writing style involves incorrect grammar and speech patterns-that is, unless it is intentional to the storyline and doesn't interfere with my ability to enjoy the piece that I'm reading. For instance, most people find that whole "slash" thing (I/i, W/we, etc) to interfere with their ability to read a forum post. Some people also have trouble understanding a post that involves the "third person" speech thing. It can, at times, get downright confusing to read something along the lines of: "she touched His skin which was attached to her body, He smacked His butt, belonging to Him" (translation: she touched her skin, which belonged to him, and was attached to her body. He smacked her bottom, which belonged to him but was her bottom. Incredibly, I actually tried to read a story like this.) If it does interfere, I'll stop reading it-move on to the next thing. Of course, if you're trying to make your presence known and your opinions heard, it might be best to communicate in a way that appeals to the majority of the audience.

Proprietrix -> RE: Speech (5/12/2006 10:58:37 AM)
Riotgirl, I think it's great that you're taking the steps needed to please your Master. On to the point of the thread: When I teach a slave to use slavese, I drill into their head that the purpose of the speech is to draw attention AWAY from the slave himself/herself. The focus of the listener or reader, is on the idea being presented and not the speaker/writer. (It kind of blends in with the idea of objectification.) Because that is my intent in teaching slavese, I despise the use of the word "this" and usually forbid it. I try to drive the point home with mine, do NOT, NOT, NOT incessantly replace "I" with a third person replacement. ("this girl", "this boy", "this slave", etc...) It defeats the purpose. Some examples: Original sentence: My Master prefers I speak in slavese. Bad replacement: "This slave's Master prefers this girl speaks in slavese." Appropriate alternatives: Master XYZ prefers his slaves speak in slavese. Master insists on the use of slavese. Original sentence: I really like it when Mistress beats my ass. Bad replacement: This boy really likes it when Mistress beats this boy's ass. Appropriate alternative: Mistress's boy enjoys having his ass beaten. The whole purpose here is to draw individuality and attention away from the slave. The whole "this girl, this boy" thing draws attention to the slave. Not to mention, it's a complete butcher on the communication itself and makes most readers tweek a bit. Refer to yourself by your name or "her" or "she" rather than your title. "This girl went to the store." becomes "venessa went to the store." or "she went to the store." I tell mine to try to avoid the word "this" completely for a while. "This" draws attention to a specific person or thing. The purpose being to draw attention to the idea presented, rather than the person presenting it, avoidance of "this" can be helpful. I'm going to take a line of your own text to show an example: "Maybe this one was silly for asking what others here thought the rules were for 3rd person speech. Maybe its silly for her to want more information on it?" Removing "this" and removing the focus on the slave, the sentence becomes: "Maybe it was silly to ask what others here thought the rules were for 3rd person speech. Maybe it's silly to want more information on it?" If your Master's intention is to draw more attention to himself than his slaves, using "Master's slave" can replace "this slave". "This slave serves to the best of her ability" becomes "Master XYZ's slave serves to the best of her ability." I guess for me, the main point is to avoid the incessant "this" replacement. I'm not so concerned with the intricacies of proper grammer, so long as the writing flows smoothly. I'm going to write a paragraph 3 times below to show the differences. Original paragraph: "Master and I went to the bondage party last night. It was great fun! He warmed me up with a flogger, but then our session turned to the whip. I love the whip! He knows how much I like it and decided to tease me for a while first. In the end, we had a great scene. Then we spent some casual time with another couple we're great friends with. I felt warm and glowy the whole time they were talking and didn't really hear much of the conversation. The night ended with me falling asleep in Master's arms." Written in 3rd speak that others would find annoying to read: "Master and this girl went to the bondage party last night. It was great fun. He warmed this slave up with a flogger, but then His and this girl's session turned to the whip. This girl loves the whip! He knows how much this slave likes it and decided to tease this girl for a while first. In the end, He and this slave had a great scene. Then Master and this slave spent some casual time with another couple that He and this girl are great friends with. This girl felt warm and glowy the whole time they were talking and this girl didn't really hear much of the conversation. The night ended with this slave falling asleep in Master's arms." Written in 3rd speak with the intent to take focus off the speaker (and to add emphasis to Master): "Master took his His slave to the bondage party last night. He had great fun. He warmed his slave up with a flogger, but then His session turned to the whip. His girl loves the whip. He knows how much she likes it and decided to tease her for a while first. In the end, He had a great scene. Then He spent some casual time with another couple He's great friends with. His slave felt warm and glowy the whole time others were talking and didn't really hear much of the conversation. The night ended with Master holding His slave in His arms while she fell asleep." (LadiesBladewing gave excellent advice as well.)

Najakcharmer -> RE: Speech (5/12/2006 11:05:37 AM)
Proprietrix: That's actually one of the best essays I've ever read on the effective AND courteous-to-others use of third person speech. Thanks!

thetammyjo -> RE: Speech (5/12/2006 11:23:12 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Najakcharmer Proprietrix: That's actually one of the best essays I've ever read on the effective AND courteous-to-others use of third person speech. Thanks! I agree. I think your examples clear up a lot of problems with using third person language.

Padriag -> RE: Speech (5/12/2006 11:53:07 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: RiotGirl Padriag, He did tell her excatly what he wanted His slave to do. He gave her 4 guidlines to go by - written down even, so she can go back and double check. But - As was already said, this one likes to do her best. Sometimes that means going beyond what was told. Investigating a matter completely. Of course, all she needs to do is follow those 4 rules. Yet some how one doesnt think that Master would be upset if she did more. He might even be proud. I should hope he would be proud of you for trying your best! But I think you misunderstood the point of my post, so let's recap a bit. First, based on your original post I didn't know how clear his instructions were, but since you were asking others for advice it seemed to me that they weren't clear enough. I suggested some ideas that might help him based on things I know help me. Now, let's look at your rules. quote: His Rules = ) RULE 1. A slave should never capitalize any reference to herself, even though there may be an instance where a sentence is started with a small letter. Appropriate reconstruction of sentences can avoid that situation. EXAMPLES: i, me, mine, hers, her, our, her first name. RULE 2. A slave should always fully capitalize the first letter of any word that refers to her Dominant person, the person with whom she is in a relationship. EXAMPLES: Sir, Master, He, His, Top, Him, You, Yours. RULE 3. A slave should always capitalize the first letter of any word that refers to her Dominant person and the slave jointly. EXAMPLES: Us, Our, We. RULE 4. A slave should whenever possible, refer to herself in the third person. EXAMPLES: Your slave, this slave, slave name RULE 5. A slave should always open and close a letter to her Master with an appropriate title or reference to his position over her. EXAMPLES: Master, Sir, my One, Lord, Your, Yours. Okay, just to clarify some terms. All of these rules fall under what I term "speech restrictions". Only Rule 4 actually deals with speaking in third person, the rest are protocols regarding forms of address and protocols for written communication. Side note: Just to be clear I'm not knocking any of it. I don't use all of these rules myself, but I do use speach restrictions and I am a big fan of protocols. I believe well defined protocols can be a helpful tool in teaching behavior and getting the desired results. End side note Looking specifically at Rule 4, this is too general in my opinion. To me it doesn't seem clear in that it gives very minimal examples of usage, nor does it address possible exceptions or cases that might be confusing. Both Bladeswing and Delight did a good job of giving the kind of written examples and rules I suggested in my first post. Thus, what I was suggesting is that your master take some time to consider how he wants you to speak, write out some examples (say a paragraph of fictional conversation that uses statements, questions and responses to give you a good general idea of what he has i mind) and some additional rules clarifying usage. It might be helpful for you and he to sit down one evening and practice this. That is, do some practice conversations, role play some situations, during which he corrects your speech as you practice. That can work if he isn't entirely sure what he wants himself, gives you both a chance to "work through it" together. I think its great you're trying your best, that's exactly what you should be doing. I'm not condemning, just offering what helpful advice I can. Your original question is really almost impossible to answer because ultimately the only rules that matter are the ones he makes, and no one on here has any way to know what that might be. Hence the suggestions on things you and your master might do to work it out. While I could give you my rules on 3rd person, what I might want might be at odds with what he wants; and if so, it could actually get you in trouble. I wouldn't want that.

Padriag -> RE: Speech (5/12/2006 11:54:54 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: thetammyjo quote: ORIGINAL: Najakcharmer Proprietrix: That's actually one of the best essays I've ever read on the effective AND courteous-to-others use of third person speech. Thanks! I agree. I think your examples clear up a lot of problems with using third person language. Ditto, very well done.

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