RE: Sex Slavery in The US: Why can't American Men Keep it in their Pants?

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RE: Sex Slavery in The US: Why can't American Men Keep ... - 5/19/2011 10:39:08 AM

xssve

Posts: 3589
Joined: 10/10/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

quote:

ORIGINAL: Charles6682

Is the average American male ever accused of doing anything good anymore?It would seem as if all American men are this evil breed of humans that are set on taking over the world.

If the good Lord ...or mother nature...had decided to give particular chemicals to women rather then men it would be women abusing men. This problem is not a mans failing it is chemistry and human nature. The problem and the blame should be shared by both sexes not just one.

Butch

There is no shortage of female sex offenders, but they don't appear to be organized, i.e., it's mostly isolated incidents, and mostly involve seduction rather than violence or enslavement, etc. Many of them appear none too stable - some no doubt were abused themselves, but if it's not an excuse for a man, it's not one for a woman either.

More of it might go unreported, in part, because a woman molesting a male is not seen as quite the same thing as it's opposite - Judeo-Christian values again, a man is sexually "experienced", a woman is "ruined", i.e., it enhances his status, lowers hers, and the reproductive costs diverge wildly for women as opposed to men, and second, it's just harder to believe because women are not "supposed" to act this way, whereas there is no shortage of discussions about the failings of men, creates a bit of a false consensus that paints men as bastards, women as long suffering saints and/or victims, as a class - when in fact, men are victimized all the time, by both women and other men.

Unfairly holding a womans sexual behavior against her in general, does of course increase the likelihood of deceptive behavior, pretty much the same as it does for anybody else, so there's a sort of "whattaya expect?" effect there.

The chances of being victimized, and frequency, is probably greater for women than men, but it isn't all one sided.

< Message edited by xssve -- 5/19/2011 10:40:23 AM >

(in reply to kdsub)

Post #: 141

RE: Sex Slavery in The US: Why can't American Men Keep ... - 5/19/2011 10:49:14 AM

rulemylife

Posts: 14614
Joined: 8/23/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

quote:

At the very core of this debate is our culture's hypocritical attitude to sex and sexual expression. We live in a culture that eulogises a particular view of male heterosexual sexuality and demonises the sexualities of females and everyone else (including almost all the contributors to these boards). Overwhelmingly, we remain trapped within this two-dimensional sexual economy, 'studs' and 'sluts'. Women have been challenging this through feminism, through changing ourselves, through asserting our rights and demanding equality for decades now.

It has to do with control over women and their sexual organs. The more control that women have over their sex lives, the less control men have. Deep down there is this very moralistic attitude towards women and their sexual choices. We have had to fight to disallow a woman's sexual past from being used in rape cases to humiliate her. We have had to fight for the right for women to have privacy over their interaction with their doctors, basically, we have had to fight fight fight.

Deep down you both really have some issues.

You want to portray women as victims and men as victimizers.

(in reply to juliaoceania)

Post #: 142

RE: Sex Slavery in The US: Why can't American Men Keep ... - 5/19/2011 10:51:29 AM

kdsub

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I am speaking in generalities...valid ones. The chemical makeup of men in general is different than women in general. These chemicals make men stronger, more aggressive, and again, in general more dominating….Not smarter. This determines, in general, our male attitude towards sex and life in general which is definitely different than women…in general.

I believe this chemical difference does not justify abuse of women but does explain which sex is…in general…taken advantage of and how this abuse is viewed by each sex...in general.

General Butch

< Message edited by kdsub -- 5/19/2011 10:54:11 AM >

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Post #: 143

RE: Sex Slavery in The US: Why can't American Men Keep ... - 5/19/2011 10:56:25 AM

xssve

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For example, you don't many articles like this about male sex offenders: Houston Press: The Ten Hottest Women on the Houston Sex Offenders List.

Women are not encouraged to express themselves physically, as are men, they don't have any principle of Machismo to uphold, they are encouraged to be passive and submissive, it's the only form of self expression they are allowed in many cases - religion encourages this, but that's reflected here as well - there aren't a lot of roles for sexually aggressive women, sexually aggressive subs are denigrated as "do-me" subs, even Domme dynamics seem to have more to do with punishment and economic exploitation than with sex - not saying it doesn't happen, but in general, males are encouraged to be sexually aggressive, women are discouraged, part of that is nature, testosterone, etc. that tip the aggression scale towards males, but there is also a lot of social reinforcement, which includes negative reinforcement - i.e., that there are only Two modes for men, they're either predators or wimps, and not much in between, and women tend to be more outspoken on that subject than men.

(in reply to xssve)

Post #: 144

RE: Sex Slavery in The US: Why can't American Men Keep ... - 5/19/2011 11:32:35 AM

maybemaybenot

Posts: 2817
Joined: 9/22/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

My point has never been that there aren't people who engage in prostitution for the helluvit. My point was never that there there is no difference between consensual prostitution where the woman makes a rational decision to sell her ass for cash...or because she gets pleasure from it. I never said there were not woman out there that were prostitutes who have control over their sexual decisions...

And my point was that there is a large portion of the prostitution industry who chose it. Now.. it may be a bad choice, it may be a choice based on other mitigating circumstances ie : runaway teen living on the streets who needs to eat, drug addiction. And there is another group who did not make the choice. They were stolen, kidnapped, transported etc. As I have repeatedly said to you. there is a cross over population that fits into both areas

My point, which I think you have dodged, is that a LARGE number of women (and these days some men) that enter this profession had about as much "choice" as a sex slave that came here from some Asian country. You seemed to think this is not true, because even though their lives are ruined, they could somehow find a way to pick themselves up and dust themselves off and start all over again. Unless you or someone you know has been through this, I seriously do not think you understand the psychological and emotional damage that results. I also do not think you understand the plight of women who do try to find straight work, especially if they have an arrest on their records from their past. I do not think you understand how society looks down on these women. And I think you overestimate the "help" that is out there for them.

Perhaps you missed it. If you refer back to Post # 82, I said i don't dispute your info. In case that wasn't clear enough: it is an acknowledgement and agreement of your link. Your next post to me was telling me I did dispute it.

As for the rest of this response : If that is what you gleaned from my posts, then I question your reading comprehension skills. You have created a fantom position for me based on nothing more than a discussion of the difference between human trafficking and run of the mill prostitution. Again. you may want to get a better understanding of " difference ". It doesn't mean better or worse, nor does it disregard one part for the other. It means they are not the same thing.

ETA : I will add: I maintain my postion that it is harder for a person who has been trafficked into the sex trade from another country than it is for any of the examples you give, including the 12 y/o's.

Your 12 y/os can use a phone, they speak the language, they know where the police are, they can run away. A woman/child trafficked from let's say.... Thailand, has no idea about AMerica or any other country they are trafficked too.
that does not mean your 12 y/o will use those resources or isn't imtimidated from using them, that does not mean they are in a better form of prostitution, that does not mean anything more than:
simply by virtue of understanding the language, culture and lay out of the land they are in a better position to seek help

< Message edited by maybemaybenot -- 5/19/2011 11:40:32 AM >

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(in reply to juliaoceania)

Post #: 145

RE: Sex Slavery in The US: Why can't American Men Keep ... - 5/19/2011 11:33:45 AM

juliaoceania

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From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
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quote:

Deep down you both really have some issues.

You want to portray women as victims and men as victimizers.

Actually I posted that boys were often forced into prostitution too, which seems to have eluded you...

Also edited to add, I think you miss the point of this entire thread completely,... which it is wrong to reduce violence against women to a religion or a culture or nationality. It is a global problem

I do not think that makes violence around the world an entirely "male" problem

< Message edited by juliaoceania -- 5/19/2011 11:36:08 AM >

_____________________________

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(in reply to rulemylife)

Post #: 146

RE: Sex Slavery in The US: Why can't American Men Keep ... - 5/19/2011 2:26:56 PM

luckydawg

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Joined: 9/2/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

quote:

ORIGINAL: luckydawg

To the OP,

Perhaps you should ask Juanita Broaddrick?

So, of course, you had to make this a partisan thread

I could list all of those who allege sexual assault by people you cheer for, but that would imply I give a shit about Bill Clinton, his legacy, or that he was probably the best republican president we have ever had

Weak dodge...You could also ask Obama why he had Common come give a show at the White House.

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Post #: 147

RE: Sex Slavery in The US: Why can't American Men Keep ... - 5/19/2011 3:42:24 PM

tweakabelle

Posts: 7522
Joined: 10/16/2007
From: Sydney Australia
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

Deep down you both really have some issues.

You want to portray women as victims and men as victimizers.

You say: "You want to portray women as victims"

I actually said: "Women have been challenging this through feminism, through changing ourselves, through asserting our rights and demanding equality for decades now. "
Is that constructing all women as victims? No way.

You say: "You want to portray men as victimizers"

I actually said: "Isn't it time some men took a good look at themselves, ceased their spurious claims to be prisoners of biology, abandoned their attempts to control the sexualities of others en masse and took responsibility for their own? Isn't it incumbent on more evolved males to expedite this process?"
Is that constructing all men as victimizers? No way.

You say: "Deep down you both really have some issues."

I say: I refuse to generalise about men and women in the way you are claiming I do.

You may have comprehension issues. Alternatively you may choose to understand these matters only in terms of self serving cliches and silly generalisations. Neither of these are deep issues at all. They often indicate the denial and fragility that underwrite some of the more reactionary perspectives on these issues, which are much deeper issues.

Why do you find the demand that "some men" take responsibility for their own behaviour such a challenge? If "some men" have already taken responsibility for their behaviour it's neither a threat or a challenge - it's irrelevant. If "some men" haven't taken responsibility, then why are you threatened by the demand that they do and resisting it?

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Post #: 148

RE: Sex Slavery in The US: Why can't American Men Keep ... - 5/19/2011 5:50:02 PM

OrionTheWolf

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Society, both men and women need to take some responsibility for their actions. They need to understand their own biology, psychology, and why they are confused about some of the things they are confused about. I think there is enough responsibility to go around for everyone to accept some.

Equality is a catch phrase. Equitable treatment under the law is the best you can attain. Two men, or two women are not equal to one another, because they have differences, no matter what those differences are. Understanding the differences in gender, culture, ethnicity, class, etc. will make for a more informed populace, and with knowledge comes power to actually be able to do something. Until then, what we are seeing are just side effects of human nature and society.

Instead of regulating it to "some men", try replacing it with "some people".

_____________________________

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(in reply to tweakabelle)

Post #: 149

RE: Sex Slavery in The US: Why can't American Men Keep ... - 5/19/2011 7:31:11 PM

WantsOfTheFlesh

Posts: 1226
Joined: 3/3/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf
Society, both men and women need to take some responsibility for their actions. They need to understand their own biology, psychology, and why they are confused about some of the things they are confused about. I think there is enough responsibility to go around for everyone to accept some.

Equality is a catch phrase. Equitable treatment under the law is the best you can attain. Two men, or two women are not equal to one another, because they have differences, no matter what those differences are. Understanding the differences in gender, culture, ethnicity, class, etc. will make for a more informed populace, and with knowledge comes power to actually be able to do something. Until then, what we are seeing are just side effects of human nature and society.

Agreed. Men and women are biologically different. It stands to reason men are better at some things than women, and worse at others compared to women. I believe in all having the same rights and freedoms but it seems reasonable that men might gravitate toward some fields more while women to others. Notions of absolute equality make that a problem.

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(in reply to OrionTheWolf)

Post #: 150

RE: Sex Slavery in The US: Why can't American Men Keep ... - 5/19/2011 7:59:38 PM

tweakabelle

Posts: 7522
Joined: 10/16/2007
From: Sydney Australia
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quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf

Society, both men and women need to take some responsibility for their actions. They need to understand their own biology, psychology, and why they are confused about some of the things they are confused about. I think there is enough responsibility to go around for everyone to accept some.

Equality is a catch phrase. Equitable treatment under the law is the best you can attain. Two men, or two women are not equal to one another, because they have differences, no matter what those differences are. Understanding the differences in gender, culture, ethnicity, class, etc. will make for a more informed populace, and with knowledge comes power to actually be able to do something. Until then, what we are seeing are just side effects of human nature and society.

Instead of regulating it to "some men", try replacing it with "some people".

Generally I agree with the argument you are presenting.

However, I would like to point out that many women, through direct action, through taking responsibility for our own lives, through feminism and political action have been doing this for a long time now. Many men have responded positively to these initiatives and re-thought their masculinities, re-invented themselves as far more 'evolved' people.

This thread began by discussing issues around violence, sex slavery and prostitution. While some women engage in non-consensual violence in their relationships, overwhelmingly gender-related violence is inflicted upon females by males. The need for immediate change in this area is paramount. The need for "some men" to take a good look at themselves is urgent.

Gender is a area that is largely regulated socially not legally. I agree that legal and economic equality is a far more realistic goal than a utopian universal equality. Equal opportunity in the public sphere is attainable. Equality in all things between all people is a utopian myth. Personally, I don't believe there is any such thing as a 'male or 'female' position on any issue. Both males and females have many positions on any given issue - collapsing them all into a single position, into crude generalisations for either gender is part of the problem.

Gender is a dynamic phenomenon - it is forever changing. Beyond some basic plumbing, it can be shaped and moulded as we see fit. Your suggestion; "Understanding the differences in gender, culture, ethnicity, class, etc. will make for a more informed populace" is an excellent one. Freeing ourselves from the many myths of biology will be giant step forward for everyone. Understanding the extent to which all our various genders are malleable will be another one.

By and large, gender has been placed on the public agenda by the political and personal actions of many women, with invaluable assistance from many men. The best outcomes will be a joint effort, the more evenly balanced the contributions the better those outcomes are likely to be.

Let's all work to ensure such outcomes eventuate. That is in all our interests.

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Post #: 151

RE: Sex Slavery in The US: Why can't American Men Keep ... - 5/20/2011 5:27:47 AM

luckydawg

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quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

quote:

ORIGINAL: luckydawg

To the OP,

Perhaps you should ask Juanita Broaddrick?

So, of course, you had to make this a partisan thread

I could list all of those who allege sexual assault by people you cheer for, but that would imply I give a shit about Bill Clinton, his legacy, or that he was probably the best republican president we have ever had

You miss the point, a powerless woman makes a credible accusation against a very powerfull man, and the entire Professional Feminist Industry and the majority of Women attack her.

Your refusal to deal with this fact is partisan.

And an example of why women get treated as they do.

_____________________________

I was posting as Right Wing Hippie, but that account got messed up.

(in reply to juliaoceania)

Post #: 152

RE: Sex Slavery in The US: Why can't American Men Keep ... - 5/20/2011 6:05:56 AM

juliaoceania

Posts: 21383
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From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
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So you bring up one (possible) rape victim from 20 or 25 years ago on a thread about prostitution, and then you call this somehow relevant. I think rape is wrong no matter who has done it. Since this case happened when I was a very young woman, wasn't paying much attention (as I said, not a Clinton fan here), this somehow makes me partisan because I do not think it is relevant?

I think you need to buy some hate blinders, you are blinded by your own

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

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(in reply to luckydawg)

Post #: 153

RE: Sex Slavery in The US: Why can't American Men Keep ... - 5/20/2011 6:07:22 AM

xssve

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Well the title makes it a partisan thread, but to be fair, it doesn't appear to be women driving the demand for human trafficking - at best, there's a few kicking up interest in sexual slavery and extreme S/M, some might be recruiters, but I'm not at all sure that make young girls any more susceptible.

Anyway, if you want to start at the source, you do need more information on how theyse girls are recruited/abducted to begin with, what their home life is like, etc.

I suspect it boils down to a question of whether she's susceptible to the charms of a guy (usually older) she doesn't know, and keeps it a secret, or whether she's able to tell her parents about it - and whether they even care.

I'm sure there's a lot more to it than that, but given that you can't do much about demand, I'd suggest starting at the supply source - good luck getting angsty teenagers to listen to you, but don't forget too, that charity begins at home - the buddy system, communication etc., could prevent a lot of grief, at least when it comes to brazen abduction.

I keep tabs of the local sex offenders list, I didn't know that human trafficking is a big issue where I live, but of the last half dozen or so pedophilia cases, at least half of them were religious, a recent one was FLDS, molesting his adopted and foster children, and his wife worked for child services, although they appear to have adopted these girls through a private adoption network, which raises the question, to me at least, of whether this is part of a larger network.

< Message edited by xssve -- 5/20/2011 6:08:22 AM >

(in reply to luckydawg)

Post #: 154

RE: Sex Slavery in The US: Why can't American Men Keep ... - 5/20/2011 6:12:02 AM

xssve

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I probably made it political by linking to that Bohemian Grove stuff, but Jaunita Broaderick doesn't really fit the criteria of the discussion, which largely concerns human trafficking, with particular respect to underage girls.

I don't believe Clinton was ever accused of molesting underage girls, fact he seems to like 'em pretty big.

(in reply to xssve)

Post #: 155

RE: Sex Slavery in The US: Why can't American Men Keep ... - 5/20/2011 6:13:48 AM

thishereboi

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quote:

Well the title makes it a partisan thread,

Where does the title mention a specific party?

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Post #: 156

RE: Sex Slavery in The US: Why can't American Men Keep ... - 5/20/2011 6:16:30 AM

juliaoceania

Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
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quote:

Well the title makes it a partisan thread

par·ti·san 1 (pärt-zn)
n.
1. A fervent, sometimes militant supporter or proponent of a party, cause, faction, person, or idea.
2. A member of an organized body of fighters who attack or harass an enemy, especially within occupied territory; a guerrilla.
adj.
1. Of, relating to, or characteristic of a partisan or partisans.
2. Devoted to or biased in support of a party, group, or cause: partisan politics.

Hmmmm... I am not a fighter, member of a political party. I am not a militant supporter of any cause (except I am a strong proponent against wars, etc). I started this thread because I am militantly opposed to hypocrisy and racism. If you read the other thread that spawned this one, perhaps you would understand that.

_____________________________

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Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

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(in reply to xssve)

Post #: 157

RE: Sex Slavery in The US: Why can't American Men Keep ... - 5/20/2011 6:30:15 AM

Sanity

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From: Nampa, Idaho USA
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Also a great example of how powerful leftists feel they are above the law, and why they feel that way. Leftist ideology is very slippery, anything or any one can be justified or demonized depending only on its relationship to the leftists mindset

quote:

ORIGINAL: luckydawg

You miss the point, a powerless woman makes a credible accusation against a very powerfull man, and the entire Professional Feminist Industry and the majority of Women attack her.

Your refusal to deal with this fact is partisan.

And an example of why women get treated as they do.

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Post #: 158

RE: Sex Slavery in The US: Why can't American Men Keep ... - 5/20/2011 6:42:06 AM

xssve

Posts: 3589
Joined: 10/10/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: thishereboi

quote:

Well the title makes it a partisan thread,

Where does the title mention a specific party?

Not politically partisan, but gender biased - biased if you buy the argument that a lot of the Johns are married to religious martyrs who only do it for purposes of reproduction, which I'm sure is the case in more than a few instances, given that a lot of this seems to be occurring in the bible belt.

As opposed to politically partisan - "men are all dogs" is more a lefty/feminist meme, and that's what the thread title manages to imply to some extent.

< Message edited by xssve -- 5/20/2011 6:54:05 AM >

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Post #: 159

RE: Sex Slavery in The US: Why can't American Men Keep ... - 5/20/2011 6:46:22 AM

Icarys

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quote:

Also a great example of how powerful leftists feel they are above the law, and why they feel that way. Leftist ideology is very slippery, anything or any one can be justified or demonized depending only on its relationship to the leftists mindset

Demonizing and justifying is a people thing, not political.

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