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RE: YouTube - Wisconsin Passes Voter Suppression Bill


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RE: YouTube - Wisconsin Passes Voter Suppression Bill - 5/22/2011 1:11:40 AM   
SternSkipper


Posts: 7546
Joined: 3/7/2004
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quote:

Im not seeing a problem so far. Am I missing something?


Yes, but it's not your fault because it's totally shitty legilation.

1)the REAL ID Act of 2005 is not proscribed as a voter ID or as having any legitimate purpose. Responsible legislators would have built in an 'act of creation' which would empower it as such. The real and ONLY specified purpose of the REAL ID act of 2005 is to create a uniformity within the DRIVER'S licenses and generic state ID which makes difficult falsification of said IDs it is a DOT standard only.

2)But that is only a minor aspect of what's wrong... cookie monster cited a commonly recognized practice of presenting 'other documents' to prove voter eligibility which in most states has to use his own categorization ALWAYS (the truth is, not 'always' but certainly till we started as a nation to clean up Jim Crow laws, poll taxes, and voter literacy scams, which were used in the past to keep minorities and the poor in general from having their day at the polls. In order for the law to actually avoid that, it should contain some work-around for the perspective voter to obtain such ID.
  It could be I missed it, as there were SO MANY repeals in the act that was passed or if in fact a modified version of SB 7 was passed (UNLIKELY). However, while there are allowances for domestic abuse victims et ux (and I know EXACTLY why those were provided for since the source of that objection and subsequent modification was in my home state of RI. There is a group @ the RI School of Law, where my sister studied and spoke of often who have been huge watchdogs nationally regarding those provisions). But still I see no mention of provisions to provide the proscribed documentation to perspective voters with no mean to afford them. AND VOTING IS A RIGHT. And no state can act in such a way as to make it otherwise. And the practice of certifying through 'deputies' doesn't cut it on it's own. There is so little said about these 'deputies' and their required conduct, other than some timetables as deadlines specified, rhat I am confident any jurist who isn't biased, would rule it "insufficient".
   This law can't survive a test of it as a poll tax pure and simple.
Matthew McQuiston wrote an excellent piece on how these ID requirements constitute a revival of the poll taxes that were abolished long ago

I want despite any potential for disagreement on the individual issues to thank you for at least reading and interpreting the actual written law. That and the fact you don't dress like a cookie monster earns my respect. 8-)

(in reply to tazzygirl)
Profile   Post #: 101
RE: YouTube - Wisconsin Passes Voter Suppression Bill - 5/22/2011 5:04:00 AM   
TheCabal


Posts: 291
Joined: 9/3/2005
From: Lots of different places
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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

You need a lesson what what voter fraud really is...

What Is Voter Fr aud?
“Voter fraud” is fraud by voters. More precisely, “voter fraud” occurs when individuals cast ballots despite knowing that they are ineligible to vote, in an attempt to defraud the election system.



And you need a lesson in what ACORN has been up to.  Please, tell me what is the point of having their staff fill out and submit phony voter registrations if not to allow individuals to cast ballots despite knowing that they are ineligible to vote, in an attempt to defraud the election system? 

In spite of your insistence to the contrary, voter registration fraud IS a form of vote fraud. As is ANY other activity that deliberately undermines the one-person, one-vote democratic system. 

(in reply to tazzygirl)
Profile   Post #: 102
RE: YouTube - Wisconsin Passes Voter Suppression Bill - 5/22/2011 6:26:51 AM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheCabal

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

You need a lesson what what voter fraud really is...

What Is Voter Fr aud?
“Voter fraud” is fraud by voters. More precisely, “voter fraud” occurs when individuals cast ballots despite knowing that they are ineligible to vote, in an attempt to defraud the election system.



And you need a lesson in what ACORN has been up to.  Please, tell me what is the point of having their staff fill out and submit phony voter registrations if not to allow individuals to cast ballots despite knowing that they are ineligible to vote, in an attempt to defraud the election system? 

In spite of your insistence to the contrary, voter registration fraud IS a form of vote fraud. As is ANY other activity that deliberately undermines the one-person, one-vote democratic system. 


I already told you the point of the emplyees who filed phony registrations, to pad their paychecks.

You have to present one case of actual vote fraud that can be traced to an ACORN registration which everyone knows you can't.

(in reply to TheCabal)
Profile   Post #: 103
RE: YouTube - Wisconsin Passes Voter Suppression Bill - 5/22/2011 8:27:10 AM   
Real0ne


Posts: 21189
Joined: 10/25/2004
Status: offline 		First off there are specific requirements to be an elector and wisconsin just said anyone can be an elector.  not...

next there is a small catch that I hit a state attorney along side the hayd with:


1.01 State sovereignty and jurisdiction.

The sovereignty and jurisdiction of this state extend to all places within the boundaries declared in article II of the constitution, subject only to such rights of jurisdiction as have been or shall be acquired by the United States over any places therein; and the governor, and all subordinate officers of the state, shall maintain and defend its sovereignty and jurisdiction.


1.09 Seat of government. Be it enacted by the council and house of representatives of the territory of Wisconsin, that the seat of government of the territory of Wisconsin, be and the same is located and established at the town of Madison, between the 3rd and 4th of the 4 lakes, on the corner of sections 13, 14, 23 and 24 in township 7, north, of range 9, east.


Seems we have a problem Dodge!

the gub is in the territory, the officials are not sworn to protect the people, they are sworn to protect the sovereignty and the state which has newspaper full of definitions and is left undefined.

I hit him with "if the gub is in the territory WTF is the state"  he did the attorney shuffle.

Since we know the territory is under the USA and that the US and USA are not one in the same.







_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to SternSkipper)
Profile   Post #: 104
RE: YouTube - Wisconsin Passes Voter Suppression Bill - 5/22/2011 9:44:28 AM   
TheCabal


Posts: 291
Joined: 9/3/2005
From: Lots of different places
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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

I already told you the point of the emplyees who filed phony registrations, to pad their paychecks.

You have to present one case of actual vote fraud that can be traced to an ACORN registration which everyone knows you can't.


It's awfully sweet of you to so eagerly buy the ACORN line.  But clearly ACORN understood their policy of paying staffers for registrations would lead to large numbers of phony ones.  So why was ACORN trying to generate phony voter registrations if no one was going to attempt to use them? 

(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 105
RE: YouTube - Wisconsin Passes Voter Suppression Bill - 5/22/2011 9:51:15 AM   
tazzygirl


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quote:

Please, tell me what is the point of having their staff fill out and submit phony voter registrations if not to allow individuals to cast ballots despite knowing that they are ineligible to vote, in an attempt to defraud the election system?
 

So that the staff can make extra money? Why is that so hard for you to comprehend. YOu keep insisting ACORN was behind it all, and you have yet to offer any proof of that.

quote:

In spite of your insistence to the contrary, voter registration fraud IS a form of vote fraud.  As is ANY other activity that deliberately undermines the one-person, one-vote democratic system.


Ah so now YOU get to redefine terms and their legal ramifications.

You are wrong.. and as typical, you cannot admit it.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to TheCabal)
Profile   Post #: 106
RE: YouTube - Wisconsin Passes Voter Suppression Bill - 5/22/2011 10:06:51 AM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
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quote:

It's awfully sweet of you to so eagerly buy the ACORN line.  But clearly ACORN understood their policy of paying staffers for registrations would lead to large numbers of phony ones.  So why was ACORN trying to generate phony voter registrations if no one was going to attempt to use them? 


And its awfully cute of you to look for bogeymen in the closet still. I can send in a voter registration for Joe Smoe.... unless Joe Smoe shows up to vote, that registration doesnt mean jack.

So, now you are going to have us believe that Leon Green decided to defraud everyone and vote as Joe Smoe for the first time.

From your home state of PA...

What to Bring
All voters who appear at a polling place for the first time must show proof of identification. Approved forms of photo identification include:

Pennsylvania driver’s license or PennDOT ID card
ID issued by any Commonwealth agency
ID issued by the U.S. Government
U.S. passport
U.S. Armed Forces ID
Student ID
Employee ID
If you do not have a photo ID, you can use a non-photo identification that includes your name and address. Approved forms of non-photo identification include:

Confirmation issued by the County Voter Registration Office
Non-photo ID issued by the Commonwealth
Non-photo ID issued by the U.S. Government
Firearm permit
Current utility bill
Current bank statement
Current paycheck
Government check
If you do not bring your ID on Election Day, vote with a provisional ballot. Don’t leave without voting!

Thats alot of work to cast one ballot. And your fear is nationwide ballot box stuffing?

This was nothing more than employees lying to get more money into their pockets... especially where ACORN was paying cash bonuses.

Spin it anyway you wish....

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to TheCabal)
Profile   Post #: 107
RE: YouTube - Wisconsin Passes Voter Suppression Bill - 5/22/2011 10:20:39 AM   
TheCabal


Posts: 291
Joined: 9/3/2005
From: Lots of different places
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

So that the staff can make extra money? Why is that so hard for you to comprehend. YOu keep insisting ACORN was behind it all, and you have yet to offer any proof of that.


That simply explains why the staffers did what they did.  Not why ACORN encouraged them knowing full well that they weren't registering real people. 

quote:

Ah so now YOU get to redefine terms and their legal ramifications.

You are wrong.. and as typical, you cannot admit it.


If it's wrong to assert that undermining the election isn't a form of vote fraud, then so be it. 

(in reply to tazzygirl)
Profile   Post #: 108
RE: YouTube - Wisconsin Passes Voter Suppression Bill - 5/22/2011 10:24:17 AM   
TheCabal


Posts: 291
Joined: 9/3/2005
From: Lots of different places
Status: offline 		They key is here:

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

From your home state of PA...

What to Bring
All voters who appear at a polling place for the first time must show proof of identification. Approved forms of photo identification include:


If you do not have a photo ID, you can use a non-photo identification that includes your name and address. Approved forms of non-photo identification include:

Confirmation issued by the County Voter Registration Office



This confirmation is issued based on your voter registration.  It is sent to the address listed on your registration.  Even if it's a PO Box.  It does not contain any sort of photo ID.  The voter simply signs it, and brings it in to the polling place, where it is compared against the voter registration roll. 

If you submit a phony voter registration, this ID will arrive at the address on the registration and can be used to vote without establishing the registered person is real. 

(in reply to tazzygirl)
Profile   Post #: 109
RE: YouTube - Wisconsin Passes Voter Suppression Bill - 5/22/2011 10:33:40 AM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline
quote:

This confirmation is issued based on your voter registration. It is sent to the address listed on your registration. Even if it's a PO Box. It does not contain any sort of photo ID. The voter simply signs it, and brings it in to the polling place, where it is compared against the voter registration roll.

If you submit a phony voter registration, this ID will arrive at the address on the registration and can be used to vote without establishing the registered person is real.


Wow, you would think if ACORN had rented that many PO boxes, someone would have found out. In many places I have lived, a PO box became a luxury because so many people had one, one could not be rented.

You keep harping on this photo ID, which I personally feel is a great idea.

How easy would it be to get the rest of that list?

If you do not have a photo ID, you can use a non-photo identification that includes your name and address. Approved forms of non-photo identification include:

Confirmation issued by the County Voter Registration Office
Non-photo ID issued by the Commonwealth
Non-photo ID issued by the U.S. Government
Firearm permit
Current utility bill
Current bank statement
Current paycheck
Government check
If you do not bring your ID on Election Day, vote with a provisional ballot. Don’t leave without voting!

These must be brought with you the first time you vote, or your ballot becomes provisional. You do know what that means.

Im still curious, how easy do you believe it is to falsify that information?

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to TheCabal)
Profile   Post #: 110
RE: YouTube - Wisconsin Passes Voter Suppression Bill - 5/22/2011 10:34:00 AM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline 		More bullshit. Ever tried to get mail delivered to an address where your name isn't on the box? In dense urban areas, like the places where ACORN operated, it might work and it might not, I know from having lived in a building with a kid who thought taking names off the boxes was great sport. So your conspiracy has to expand to hundreds of thousands of letter carriers nationwide.

I'm still waiting for the first instance of vote fraud traceable to an ACORN registration.

(in reply to TheCabal)
Profile   Post #: 111
RE: YouTube - Wisconsin Passes Voter Suppression Bill - 5/22/2011 10:37:28 AM   
FitExpDomwPic


Posts: 15
Joined: 9/5/2009
Status: offline 		ACORN does not register voters. Acorn, like other organizations (or individuals) is free to disseminate voter registration forms. The State is the only entity that can register voters.

It is, in fact, a felony to NOT turn in voter registration papers once they have been filled. If someone hands me a voter registration form filled out with the name "Super Man," I am obligated by law to turn the form in, because no one can determine the validity of someone to register to vote except the State. This is because of traditional "voter suppression" tactics: get as many people as possible to fill out voter registration forms--then throw away the forms of those who register as identifying with the opposing party. People then show up to the polls thinking they are registered to vote. If votes in these districts need to be challenged (like in Florida 2000, Ohio 2004, etc...) they are able to throw out a large number of votes and declare "voter fraud."

Google "voter suppression" and you'll get a long, long history of this tactic.

35 year DOJ veteran blows whistle on voter suppression tactics during Bush Admin:
http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/commentary/la-oe-rich29mar29,0,1507657.story

(in reply to tazzygirl)
Profile   Post #: 112
RE: YouTube - Wisconsin Passes Voter Suppression Bill - 5/22/2011 10:39:34 AM   
TheCabal


Posts: 291
Joined: 9/3/2005
From: Lots of different places
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

Wow, you would think if ACORN had rented that many PO boxes, someone would have found out. In many places I have lived, a PO box became a luxury because so many people had one, one could not be rented.


I doubt anyone would bother checking the address on a registration in the first place - other than possibly to verify what precinct it is in.  All they'd really need to do is have the registration card sent straight to an ACORN office.  Of course, if they wanted to be less obvious, a single PO Box would suffice. 

quote:

You keep harping on this photo ID, which I personally feel is a great idea.


Well good - I want people presenting photo ID too.


(in reply to tazzygirl)
Profile   Post #: 113
RE: YouTube - Wisconsin Passes Voter Suppression Bill - 5/22/2011 10:40:43 AM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline 		You really are that naive... amazing.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to TheCabal)
Profile   Post #: 114
RE: YouTube - Wisconsin Passes Voter Suppression Bill - 5/22/2011 10:43:23 AM   
TheCabal


Posts: 291
Joined: 9/3/2005
From: Lots of different places
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

More bullshit. Ever tried to get mail delivered to an address where your name isn't on the box? In dense urban areas, like the places where ACORN operated, it might work and it might not, I know from having lived in a building with a kid who thought taking names off the boxes was great sport. So your conspiracy has to expand to hundreds of thousands of letter carriers nationwide.

I'm still waiting for the first instance of vote fraud traceable to an ACORN registration.


I get mail delivered to me at my office all the time without my name being on the box. 

And you can just keep waiting and insisting I produce a fraudulent ACORN vote.  Rational people understand why this is an absurd request.

Next... 

(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 115
RE: YouTube - Wisconsin Passes Voter Suppression Bill - 5/22/2011 10:45:10 AM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline 		Its because none exists.

Next....

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to TheCabal)
Profile   Post #: 116
RE: YouTube - Wisconsin Passes Voter Suppression Bill - 5/22/2011 10:54:01 AM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: TheCabal

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

More bullshit. Ever tried to get mail delivered to an address where your name isn't on the box? In dense urban areas, like the places where ACORN operated, it might work and it might not, I know from having lived in a building with a kid who thought taking names off the boxes was great sport. So your conspiracy has to expand to hundreds of thousands of letter carriers nationwide.

I'm still waiting for the first instance of vote fraud traceable to an ACORN registration.


I get mail delivered to me at my office all the time without my name being on the box. 

And you can just keep waiting and insisting I produce a fraudulent ACORN vote.  Rational people understand why this is an absurd request.

Next... 


Good for you now try it in an apartment building where you don't live.

Still waiting for the first actual instance of vote fraud traceable to ACORN.

(in reply to TheCabal)
Profile   Post #: 117
RE: YouTube - Wisconsin Passes Voter Suppression Bill - 5/22/2011 2:22:46 PM   
TheCabal


Posts: 291
Joined: 9/3/2005
From: Lots of different places
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

Good for you now try it in an apartment building where you don't live.

Still waiting for the first actual instance of vote fraud traceable to ACORN.


My last one went to a PO Box, and I don't live at the post office.  And I'm still waiting for you to explain why ACORN has been submitting fraudulent voter registrations if not to try to use them to vote. 

(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 118
RE: YouTube - Wisconsin Passes Voter Suppression Bill - 5/22/2011 2:29:52 PM   
willbeurdaddy


Posts: 11894
Joined: 4/8/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: subrob1967

Bullshit... Asking a registered voter for identification does not violate unreasonable search and seizures laws,


And anyone who thinks it does should be banned from voting.

_____________________________

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and harken
to the barking of the dogfox,
gone to ground.

(in reply to subrob1967)
Profile   Post #: 119
RE: YouTube - Wisconsin Passes Voter Suppression Bill - 5/22/2011 4:02:38 PM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: TheCabal

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

Good for you now try it in an apartment building where you don't live.

Still waiting for the first actual instance of vote fraud traceable to ACORN.


My last one went to a PO Box, and I don't live at the post office.  And I'm still waiting for you to explain why ACORN has been submitting fraudulent voter registrations if not to try to use them to vote. 


I've told you twice. ACORN didn't do anything. ACORN employees submitted fraudulent voter registrations to pad their paycheck. Other ACORN employees were quite frequently the ones who reported the fraud to authorities.

It is still incumbent on you to provide a single instance of vote fraud related to ACORN registrations.

(in reply to TheCabal)
Profile   Post #: 120
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