On the flip side - submissive women

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LadyPact -> On the flip side - submissive women (5/22/2011 8:55:02 AM)
This one is basically the flip side of this thread http://www.collarchat.com/m_3649905/tm.htm where the question was asked of male Dominants if they have contempt for submissive males. However, I want to do this with a bit of a twist. I'm going to start this out with the premise that I honestly don't see many (if any) Dominant women that actually do have contempt for submissive women. Granted, plenty of Dommes out there who don't have any desire to submit, so when they think about submission and try to connect the dots in regard to themselves, it doesn't quite work. I'm in that group, Myself. I'd make a hideous submissive for more reasons than I'd care to list. Anyway.......... As many of the forum regulars know, it's My general position that there really isn't much difference when it comes to Dominants whether they be male or female. In a lot of areas, we pretty much tick the same way. My usual estimate of questions that come across the CM forums, it really wouldn't matter if you switched around the pronouns at least ninety percent of the time. Yet, the question from that thread would have floated on this forum like a lead balloon. My questions to other female Dominants are: If you agree with Me, why do you think there is a difference between the genders in this instance? If you don't agree with Me, how often do you see Dommes have contempt for submissive women?

LadyHibiscus -> RE: On the flip side - submissive women (5/22/2011 9:42:47 AM)
I love and respect the submissive women that I have as friends--and there are many! I was raised to serve, I understand service, but I will never "get" submission. I am grateful to those that do, of course ;) I agree that gender does not affect dominance. Why so many think it does is because they put the filter of sexual preference onto it. Take away the fucking, and it's very similar. I am trying to think of examples of female doms dissing female subs, and I really can't think of any, except in terms of personality conflicts. What kind of person holds an entire group of people in contempt? We usually put terms like "racist" or what have you on that kind of thing, unless the group is "pedophiles" or something similarly heinous. I don't have it in me to be on the master forum, so I'm sure I'm missing some points to respond to.

VaguelyCurious -> RE: On the flip side - submissive women (5/22/2011 10:26:51 AM)
FR To a supremacist of gender x, a submissive of gender x is either a disappointment or a threat to their worldview. The mistress board does not have a history of tolerating female supremacists. I can't think of a single current female supremacist regular. The master board has a history of tolerating male supremacists. I could name you several current regulars. That there's your answer.

LadyHibiscus -> RE: On the flip side - submissive women (5/22/2011 11:16:23 AM)
Thank you, VC. And yanno, I really AM a female supremacist, in the "grrlz are better" kind of way. :)

LadyPact -> RE: On the flip side - submissive women (5/22/2011 11:22:19 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: VaguelyCurious FR To a supremacist of gender x, a submissive of gender x is either a disappointment or a threat to their worldview. The mistress board does not have a history of tolerating female supremacists. I can't think of a single current female supremacist regular. The master board has a history of tolerating male supremacists. I could name you several current regulars. That there's your answer. Now you have Me wondering if we still have any. I could have sworn we had at least one who was semi-regular, in a forum posting sort of way. I don't want to bring anyone's name into the thread who isn't here, so I'll have to let that one go.

LaTigresse -> RE: On the flip side - submissive women (5/22/2011 11:30:46 AM)
I believe there is one that shows up every now and then but is very respectful of others. I've never seen her go combative or 'one true way'. I could never be contemptive of submissive women. I adore them! Submissive women have taught me more about the mindset of submissives and all of the how and whys, the drive and needs, than anything or anyone else. I am honoured to have been given the opportunity to get to know many of these women.

LadyConstanze -> RE: On the flip side - submissive women (5/22/2011 12:58:54 PM)
I consider myself lucky to have friends who happen to be submissives, we have no D/s connection or PE going on, we are just friends, male and females, I learned a lot from them and even better, they are great friends I share laughs with... Contempt? Escapes me completely, I feel happy if they are happy, I want the best for my friends...

SylvereApLeanan -> RE: On the flip side - submissive women (5/22/2011 1:03:45 PM)
Put me in the "doesn't grok submission but loves the fact that submissive women exist" category. I suspect a lot of the contempt for submissive men has to do with social conditioning. Men are still conditioned to be the head of the household, the strong protector of "his" woman and offspring, the competitive go-getter in business, and a whole host of other outdated gender stereotypes. In many cases, women are conditioned to be the sweet, nurturing helpmate who cares for the house and children. While women are encouraged to pursue a career, they are still expected to do the bulk of the household chores. Women give up careers to raise children far more often than men. When I see contempt for submissive women, especially those who identify as slaves, nine times out of ten it's not from a domme, it's from a self-proclaimed "feminist" who doesn't understand the consensual nature of a power dynamic and has no desire to learn. Dominant women are already comfortable bucking social stereotypes, and are familiar with power exchange relationships, so they're starting from a slightly different place. They can respect submission and, though they know it doesn't work for them on a personal level, they can understand and accept that it does for other women.

sunshinemiss -> RE: On the flip side - submissive women (5/22/2011 4:20:23 PM)
I've written about this before and have gotten in a certain amount of hot water from folks here because of it (but I pretty much stand by what I think).... Sadly, I don't have time to write it up now, but STAY TUNED! Here's a teaser: If a woman follows an idiot, I have no respect for her (I"ve followed idiots in my life and have no self-respect for having done so) I think that too many people - particularly women - fall into the "but he told me to" nonsense. I'll be back soon enough! Best, sunshine

PeonForHer -> RE: On the flip side - submissive women (5/22/2011 4:58:56 PM)
FR This is something about which I became curious some while ago, so I began to watch out for it. I don't think I've ever seen a clear case of it, though. There was once a long, and furious, debate whose leading protagonists on each side were a femdom and a femsub respectively. I saw then what I thought was just a hint of contempt femdoms towards femsubs - but no more than a hint. And I could easily have been wrong. I think, pretty obviously, if a femsub were to turn up here and talk of 'women's natural inferiority to men', she might expect contempt of that particular kind of femsub. During the aforementioned furious debate, the femdom accused the femsub of 'requiring the whole of society to be structured in a certain way just so that she could get her panties wet'. I could see why the femdom was enraged, shall we say. That would be a difficult position on the femsub's part for either femdoms, or malesubs, to respect.

Tantriqu -> RE: On the flip side - submissive women (5/22/2011 5:43:33 PM)
Yup, also in the 'I don't grok it but if it floats your mutual boat' category. However, too often on this site I see rancid and rampant misogyny far beyond BDSM, so I'm also in the ''I threw up a little in my mouth from reading some supreMANist defecation that leaked from the Ask a Misogynist site' category; love me the 'hide' button, although it's a superficial and temporary bandaid, like bug spray. I don't like women OR men who think there is an inferior gender, so I can't stand, 'Oooh, you're so big and stwong, and poor widdle me couldn't pump my own gas' or 'Men are pigs' any more than 'Something that menstruated can't be a leader' or 'Women are naturally submissive' -- my trigger finger just got itchy . . . I found the hate mail from submissive women surprising, and the stuff from sado/dom men just loathsome; then I'm pleased to remind them I fuck men in the ass because I love them;-) And the stuff a dom was getting his female sub to write was just hilarious. So, as long as in public couples are respectful to each other and don't scare the horses or the children, then anything mutually satisfying and consensual can happen behind closed doors, whether bedroom or dungeon.

sunshinemiss -> RE: On the flip side - submissive women (5/23/2011 2:36:39 AM)
Ok, work is done, and here I am. I admit that I have a certain amount of disrespect for some fem slaves. Yes, I do. Does that mean it is toward every woman who is a fem slave? No. Does it pertain to submissive women? Sometimes. For me, the thing is two fold (currently - it is an ever-evolving process). First, I don't respect people who give up who they are, the people who become so empty that they can not live / make decisions / interact within the world if they are not given direction. That just pushes my buttons, and I don't respect it. If it works for you, good on you. However, I don't have to respect you for it. (I would feel the same way if it were a male just for a point of clraification). This example is about PEOPLE WHO ARE SO DEEPLY into being managed that they couldn't take care of themselves if their partner left. I find that insulting, and I have no respect for people who act in such a manner. That is only for children who are learning to become adults. I don't have respect for adults who regress into childhood lack of responsibility. The second portion has to do with a woman's choice in partners. There are certainly female s-types who are in good relationships with good men. Some even call themselves "slaves". However, because they follow their partner's dictates NO MATTER WHAT, I'm careful with those people. Let's say I'm good friends with Suzie Sub. She and I have been friends for years, helped each other with difficulties, celebrated each other's accomplishments, held hands during turmoil. We are tight. And then Suzie meets Domly Dan. Dan and she get involved to the point that he starts telling her who she can and cannot be friends with. Up until this point their relationship was only peripheral to my relationship with her. Now, I'm in it. If I piss him off, who's to say he might not punish ME by saying to Suzie, "You can't be friends with her anymore."? I've seen it happen, folks. So, now I'm in a position that I have to keep HIM happy in order to maintain my friendship with HER. I don't respect that her relationship puts me in that position and that it does not honor our history - hers and mine. I have to respect the man whom she is following if I'm going to continue to respect her. If he is a good and decent, smart man, I can respect her because I do not have to fear that he will abuse his power - I can respect her because she has chosen a man who deserves my respect. That is where the rubber hits the road for me. Now, I know that this attitude / experience of mine tends to be offensive to other folks. And I know people have in the past given me the "but don't you think" argument. And let me just save you some typing. I'm sorry if you are offended, but that's not my issue. And no, I don't think whatever it is you are about to say. I think what I just posted. best, sunshine *You may notice that I have some heat around this issue. It is true. I do. What I just posted is the "softer" version of what is real for me.

LadyHibiscus -> RE: On the flip side - submissive women (5/23/2011 9:03:20 AM)
I heart Sunny. Over on Fet, I stumbled into a deeply appalling "writing assignment" wherein a gal outlined what can be described as the "stepford kajira" guide to beauty. If your body is not pleasing, eat right, exercise, and have plastic surgery! That glosses over a long testimony of a person who needs therapy, not a dominant. I have no respect for that kind of "submission".

Vendaval -> RE: On the flip side - submissive women (5/23/2011 9:17:17 AM)
Fast Reply - IME, I cannot think of any instances of Female Dominants treating female submissives with contempt. I have met Male Dominants that despised submissives men however. Think that SylvereApLeanan hits the nail on the head as the root cause being social conditioning and expected gender roles.

SaharahEve -> RE: On the flip side - submissive women (5/25/2011 9:40:11 AM)
Diversity is to be expected. I'm indifferent to what other adults are doing with their lives so long as my civil liberties are upheld. If submitting to a man or Woman makes a Woman's heart sing , then I'm happy for Her happiness. If I can't handle diversity, I can't handle Life.

sexyred1 -> RE: On the flip side - submissive women (5/25/2011 9:45:57 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: sunshinemiss I've written about this before and have gotten in a certain amount of hot water from folks here because of it (but I pretty much stand by what I think).... Sadly, I don't have time to write it up now, but STAY TUNED! Here's a teaser: If a woman follows an idiot, I have no respect for her (I"ve followed idiots in my life and have no self-respect for having done so) I think that too many people - particularly women - fall into the "but he told me to" nonsense. I'll be back soon enough! Best, sunshine I agree with Sunny. Even though you asked about how Dommes feel, I wanted to chime in and say that only contempt I would have for anyone, Dominant or submissive of whatever gender, is when they behave stupidly, as Sunny cites above. Doing something stupid that harms yourself and ascribing it to being submissive, is what I think she means. I also never understand the whole contempt for being a submissive male thing either; any contempt someone has for having a predilicition that is not understood by someone, is more a reflection that person's fear or insecurity than anything else.

LadyConstanze -> RE: On the flip side - submissive women (5/25/2011 9:58:15 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LadyHibiscus I heart Sunny. Over on Fet, I stumbled into a deeply appalling "writing assignment" wherein a gal outlined what can be described as the "stepford kajira" guide to beauty. If your body is not pleasing, eat right, exercise, and have plastic surgery! That glosses over a long testimony of a person who needs therapy, not a dominant. I have no respect for that kind of "submission". To be honest, if I wouldn't like my body, I mean apart from those minor "wish I had less boobs, my butt should be a bit smaller, wish my legs weren't quite as muscular" stuff, I would actually start changing my diet, exercise more and if it would make me unhappy enough, I would consider cosmetic surgery. I don't know if I require therapy, I don't really think so, it's just being happy is down to me and it's down to me to not let myself go and shape myself because it would make unhappy to be out of shape. Unless I have medical issues, it's up to me to stay fit and look as good as I can, that includes my food intake, exercise and well, doing what makes me happy, now if I do that for myself, where's the problem with it? It becomes a submissive act when I only do it to please somebody else.

PeonForHer -> RE: On the flip side - submissive women (5/25/2011 10:15:00 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LaTigresse I believe there is one that shows up every now and then but is very respectful of others. I've never seen her go combative or 'one true way'. I think I know the one. Yep, she has all diplomatic skills in fifth gear when she comes on. Just as well, because I, for one, watch what she says like a hawk. [;)]

PeonForHer -> RE: On the flip side - submissive women (5/25/2011 10:18:19 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LadyConstanze It becomes a submissive act when I only do it to please somebody else. Quite right, it does. There's something very horny about doing exercise to shape my body towards what 'she' wants. (Not that there is a 'she' at present, but you get what I mean.) It's to do with the whole 'seeing-yourself-as-her-object' thing that (some of) we subs get into.

LadyConstanze -> RE: On the flip side - submissive women (5/25/2011 10:24:12 AM)
How about for the enjoyment of it? You know the fun you can have running, cycling, inline skating, whatever... The plus side is also, I kinda like my body for the most part, so looking after it seems a good idea, I'd like to hang on to it for a while...

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