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RE: A reason to condemn Israel - 7/3/2006 7:21:49 AM   
Arpig


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So very true caitlyn (as usual ).

The world ain't a pretty place, and a lot of really bad shit happens. Accept it for what it is....reality.

As for the native Americans....I never threw anybody off any land, nor have I massacred anybody, so don't try telling me I owe anybody a damned thing because of something one of my ancestors might have done. I refuse to accept the whole conecpt of racial guilt, or retroactive guilt.

The present treatment of natives? I did not approve it, and never voted for it, so again don't try to guilt me. As far as I am concerned a so-called "native" american or canadian, should have no rights beyond those of any other citizen, nor should they have any less rights. I do not believe a person's ancestry should in any way determine their rights.


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RE: A reason to condemn Israel - 7/3/2006 7:39:31 AM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: caitlyn

There's nothing fair about this world, and nobody owes anyone anything ... because they were there first, or they have this claim or that. Claims are only as good as the military might that backs them.
 


Might is right.

If the rich exploit the poor, the strong exploit the weak, that's fine. But why do we lock up poor people that rob from the rich but not the rich that rob from the poor? Democracy is a rich man's tool I guess.

“Better to die standing, than to live on your knees.” Che Guevara. It could have been said by suicide bombers.

'Might is right' might be the way of the world but it's not right, its not moral, its dehumanizing. Just to accept that is the way the world has to be condemns the world to yet more folly. What happens when 'might is right' comes knocking on your door?

History can't be changed but the future doesn't have to be more of the same.

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RE: A reason to condemn Israel - 7/3/2006 7:43:45 AM   
meatcleaver


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Getting back on topic or somewhere near on topic. The holocaust was fine then because might is right?

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RE: A reason to condemn Israel - 7/3/2006 7:46:39 AM   
Rumtiger


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I thought that was Emeliano Zapata that said that?

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RE: A reason to condemn Israel - 7/3/2006 7:54:38 AM   
realmanfordomme


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gee i tried to read the article , now it is no longer available, i wonder why ? 

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RE: A reason to condemn Israel - 7/3/2006 8:03:48 AM   
meatcleaver


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"I would rather die standing than live on my knees!” Zapata

It appears that Guevara quoted Zapata. I've tried several sites and found the quote being said by both. I guess Zapata came first.

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RE: A reason to condemn Israel - 7/3/2006 9:00:21 AM   
caitlyn


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Lets try a quote that's a little "pie in the sky."
 
"No matter how you die, you still end up either face down or on your ass."
~Caitlyn, 2006

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RE: A reason to condemn Israel - 7/3/2006 1:44:23 PM   
Kedikat


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http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article13749.htm

A very disturbing video on what goes on in Israel and Palestine. It gets more crazy as the video goes on. I knew some of it, but the extent is shocking. The video has people from all sides talking, pro and con.
The maps are so blatantly obvious as to how a country and people are being scattered and isolated to oblivion.

The incredible irony of it.

< Message edited by Kedikat -- 7/3/2006 1:45:02 PM >

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RE: A reason to condemn Israel - 7/3/2006 4:37:35 PM   
Kedikat


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quote:

ORIGINAL: caitlyn

It's called war ... the winner gets what they want, the loser goes home, providing the winner allows them to still have one.
 
There's nothing fair about this world, and nobody owes anyone anything ... because they were there first, or they have this claim or that. Claims are only as good as the military might that backs them.
 
War decides it all. If you don't want to get fucked over, don't lose at war. That just is, what it is.


I think it is more this kind of attitude and hopeless philosophy that is the problem.

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RE: A reason to condemn Israel - 7/4/2006 1:51:55 AM   
philosophy


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might is right belongs in the same drawer as white is right.....just because it rhymes doesn't mean it's a healthy attitude

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RE: A reason to condemn Israel - 7/4/2006 6:46:27 AM   
caitlyn


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Kedikat and philosophy ...
 
I wasn't making or justifying the rules, only understanding them for what they are.
 
I suppose it's easier to slam the observational realist, then come up with a viable solution for change. You only prove my point. Nations slam other nations because they have no viable alternative. You are both doing the exact same thing, for the exact same reason.

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RE: A reason to condemn Israel - 7/4/2006 8:57:11 AM   
philosophy


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"I wasn't making or justifying the rules, only understanding them for what they are.
 
I suppose it's easier to slam the observational realist, then come up with a viable solution for change."
 
......hmm, well there are some assumptions there. The obvious one is that you make the phrase 'might is right' a rule not an observation. i would argue it is a pure piece of sophistry used to justify what is clearly morally indefensible, but that's just me......
However there is a simple solution.....and it's the same solution that works whenever we need to make a societal change. whenever you see someone say 'might is right' tell 'em they're wrong. Say it loud enough, often enough......talk about the alternatives to using force........in time people will change. Although there are always those who call themselves realists who will only seek to oppose a shift in status quo.............the use of force is a human artefact, not a natural force like a tsunami.......it's a decision, and we really do have control over our decisions.

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RE: A reason to condemn Israel - 7/4/2006 11:55:47 AM   
Lordandmaster


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That's a little cynical.  Why do you assume that there's no "viable alternative"?  Just because the countries in question haven't tried very hard to find one?  I think people who would rather work out a viable alternative than go through the same cycles century after century are more than just starry-eyed dreamers.

quote:

ORIGINAL: caitlyn

I suppose it's easier to slam the observational realist, then come up with a viable solution for change. You only prove my point. Nations slam other nations because they have no viable alternative. You are both doing the exact same thing, for the exact same reason.

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RE: A reason to condemn Israel - 7/4/2006 1:21:08 PM   
Kedikat


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There are viable alternatives. But too many governments take what at first seems the easier/quicker? way of force. But it so often turns out to not be worth that effort in the long run.
It is usually the failure of a government that causes it to incite war and or grabbing others land/resources. The people too often go along with it. After the usual propoganda blitz.
The alternatives are always there. Take care of your own house. Solve the problems within. Defend yourself for sure, but don't attack another country.
I can steal a car or work and buy a car. Too often governments are like thieves.
Unless you are attacked, there is no good reason to attack another country.

I did not direct my reply to you as a person. But towards that concept of war and such being sort of inevitable.
I think maybe some day we will get smarter.

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RE: A reason to condemn Israel - 7/4/2006 3:20:39 PM   
Termyn8or


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I finally read a newspaper today, I mean the regular one. It seems the Palestinians have one Israeli soldier "on ice" and are making some really extreme demands. They want Israel to release Women and children from the prisons.

How dare they ? You know some of those children threw rocks at Israeli tanks, you know that could scratch the paint, or damage the weaponry. You know they actually took out an Abrams tank a few years ago, they started by planting a land mine, throwing rocks at the tank and goading it into position over the mine. What a bunch of lowlife cowards, taunting a poor tank like that.

Israel should outlaw rocks, or place strict licensing requirements on them, after all, you know how many American dollars are wrapped up in one of those tanks, which are only used by a morally superior people, strictly for humanitarian reasons of course.

I have in my possesion a picture of Orthodox Jews demonstrating in NY, carrying signs saying i.e. "Zionisn is not Judaism" and "Jews are forbidden from having their own state until the coming of the Messiah". In the Germany that we liberated they would be sent to prison, and there are time and time again pieces of legislative crap in Washington trying to get similar laws passed here.

There are also hundreds of Jews in jail in Israel for refusing to "serve" again in the occupied territories, citing the abominations perpetrated there as the reason.

No matter what LaM and others may think about my comments about Jews, I do not paint them all with the same brush. I have several brushes. Funny thing is, what very few people know is that Jews are NOT in control of Israel. Jews are a tool used by the ruling class in Israel, known as the Zionists. I know a few Jews and yes they are smarter on average, yes they are successful, yes they know their way around a barganing table. Yet they are not thieves, nor malevolent nor dishonest.

I have respect for Viet Nam era draft dodgers, they simply said " I AIN'T DOING IT ", and I have similar respect for the Jews sitting in Israeli jails for the same reason. If real Jews who lived by the Torah were running Israel we would see a very different picture in the middle east. Even if Palestine was handed to them on a silver platter you would not see the havoc you see now. It just got handed to the wrong people.

Kinda rings a bell doesn't it ? Do you think we will ever see a really worthy Presidential candidate in the US ? Do you think the Israelis are ever going to see a viable candidate for Prime Minister who has and does live by the Torah ? No, not in the near future, and never, as long as big money runs (ruins) the world.

We, in the US can only start here. We need to get a President elected who is not bought and paid for by big money. this may have the effect of (as one poster put it) forcing Israel to really use diplomacy.

To even think about the means to a change, one must have a goal. Somehow an idyllic model must be generated, and I believe I have done just that, inadvertently, in writing a work of fiction. The goal of changing the world for the better is complicated, and there are many many "subgoals" to be met first, if I may coin a word.

In my book, certain technology is kept out of government hands. Education is not handled by the government so this is easy to maintain. There is very little military, but unfettered by the Almighty Buck technology flourishes, but is not used against people. Due to this, in this futuristic utopia, the US could take over the world in a very short time, but does not. They adhere to the Constitution and US Citizens are treated well all over the world.

Now how do we get there from here ?

"Drop in the bucket". Gen Tommy Franks US Retd met with many Arabs in his career. He offered up a hand, to shake not strike. He advised the Arabs he met that he had no Israeli visa in his passport.

I submit the theorum that if drops keep getting into the bucket, it will eventually be full unless it leaks. This only requantifies the theorum the even a journey of a thousand miles begins with one step. I think both are true.

With all the violence going on and the shit that has already been started I would say our bucket has a leak. This would be analguous to the destination of the thousand mile journey moving away from the traveler, making it longer than a thousand miles.

When I get on the net, on collarme, on LMU and alot of other places, I see a remarkable amount of goodwill and amicability among people, posters that is. I have agreed to disagree many times, as have others.

Well, the "leaders" and big money have solidarity, even when countries are at war at times. We need a similar solidarity, it is our only hope, because there are alot more of us then there are of them. We need to stop squibbling and squabbling over bullshit (not that we do here, I mean in general).

The real Jews in Israel need to get a real Jew elected Prime Minister, we need to get a President elected who is loyal to the People. If either ever happens, that leader will be able to rightly call the People who elected him "his people", as he will enjoy the level of popular support unseen recently, except for Hugo Chavez Frias. Actually I think Castro must be in pretty good graces too. When a foreign leader stays in power for a long time despite US pressure to oust him, it makes me go "hmmmm".

Israel needs to get a leader in there who at least has some fucking morals, but I am the pot calling the kettle black. This is not easy. We need the same thing very badly. Despite the huge US aid to Israel, there is a significant level of poverty. Who is taking that money ?

No, it is just like here, the rich against the poor. Would be nice to switch sides and destroy them from within but that ain't gonna happen.

I wish the Jews would realize that if they don't wrest control from the Zionists, eventually someone is going to get a nuke into the Negev desert and Dimora will go boom, making the Holy Land uninhabitable for eons. If they are right and their Messiah comes, he is going to be pissed off. Jesus never said to let assholes wreck the fucking planet, and I doubt the next one will either.

It is We The People who must be the impetus for change, our "leaders" have no such motivation. Strangely their sons don't die in the wars they create, and each and every one of them for money and more power. Against us.

See, since there is a cooperation between governments, it is sometimes against other nations, but what it boils down to is that it is all against us. The need the weapons and technology to maintain control. Think about it, would YOU give it up ?

Happy fourth all. All those people died for NOTHING, and I am going to celebrate the fourth by washing clothes.

I must get off this, and do something positive, not because it is this day, but because it is a day. I am trying to get where maybe somebody out there has some ideas. To vote the bums out we need someone to vote in. Who shall it be ? In Israel who shall it be ? All this is not easy, but we have to start somewhere. Even if it is too late, but it is not yet proven to be too late. Any Israelis in here, what say you ? Can you find SOMEONE in your government who is right ? Like our Ron Paul ? Anyone ? I intend to contact Ron Paul and ask if he knows of anyone in Ohio like him, who understands the Constitution and, actually, right from wrong.

Can the same be done in Israel ? I dunno. Since it's a Prime Minister/Parliment type of government I would think the "leader" is not directly elected by the People, not sure though. They probably have a harder path than US Citizens. From what I understand, with Israel's low GNP and that being eaten up by military spending alot of Israeli Citizens are dependent on the government for income supplements, or are engaged in business with the government. This is not good, but we could lead again in the US. By electing a President with a brain we can stop the gravy train. This will do every human being in the world a favor.

Problem is the Zionists have so much hubris that they might choose to blow it all up if they ever lose. "If I can't have it nobody else can" type of attitude.

Is that a reason not to try ?

Somebody said something like "I would rather die standing than live on my knees".

What say you ?

T

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RE: A reason to condemn Israel - 7/4/2006 3:55:43 PM   
Lordandmaster


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I knew it wouldn't be long before you went back to your half-cocked ideas about Jews.  I was hoping for better, but I guess that was optimistic.

I'm just quoting this little part of your post because the rest is rambling nonsense.  Ehud Olmert is a Jew.  You may not agree with him, you may not like him, but it's absurd to pretend that he's not a "real Jew."  Are you aware, by the way, that his wife is a longtime supporter of Peace Now?  (Do you even know what Peace Now is?)  I think you need to read more about Israeli politics and history and worry less about how Jews dominate the world because they are smarter than everyone else.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Termyn8or

The real Jews in Israel need to get a real Jew elected Prime Minister


< Message edited by Lordandmaster -- 7/4/2006 3:56:28 PM >

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RE: A reason to condemn Israel - 7/4/2006 8:20:28 PM   
caitlyn


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Cynical ... probably. It must come from reading history, and coming to the conclusion that no matter how bad something seemed at the time ... the test of time eventually shows it to be considerably worse.
 
Of course there is always room for hope. Perhaps if we become vastly more enlightened, and learned how to deal with our problems twice as peacefully ... we could then limit ourselves to one attempted mass genocide per century.

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RE: A reason to condemn Israel - 7/5/2006 2:09:00 AM   
meatcleaver


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This is a bizarre view Termyn8or. A quick google and you will find a lot of Jewish people frustrated with Isreal. Just thinking of three in recent years in Britain who have held senior positions in government. Gerald Kaufman has been called a Palastinian sympathizer and Edwina Currie, who said she was tired of Isreal thinking it can do what it wants. Jack Straw is more circumspect but he is still active in government so needs to be more diplomatic but has shown his frustration and condemned Isreal for certain actions. Though I readily accept their concerns are probably in thinking Isreal is doing more damage to itself by its present policy of appropriating Palastinian land and a more concillatory approach towards the Palastinians would give peace a better chance. There are quite a few other British Jewish people that have shown more than a little anger and frustration with Isreali policy.

Oh wait! Maybe they are saying what they think we want to hear so we can vote them into positions of power and from there take over! It all sounds a little Hitler-ish to me.

EDITED TO ADD - Kaufman made a documentry for the BBC exploring the Isreali - Palastinian conflict. The programme was accused of being anti-semetic by some Isrealis who didn't realise Kaufman was a Jew and a self-hating Jew by some Isrealis that did know he was a Jew. Some Jewish conspiracy. Actually I thought the documentry was well balanced, fair and thoughtful and wasn't anti-Isreali in anyway but didn't duck hard issues.

< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 7/5/2006 2:35:12 AM >

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RE: A reason to condemn Israel - 7/5/2006 10:11:09 AM   
Kedikat


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quote:

ORIGINAL: caitlyn

Cynical ... probably. It must come from reading history, and coming to the conclusion that no matter how bad something seemed at the time ... the test of time eventually shows it to be considerably worse.
 
Of course there is always room for hope. Perhaps if we become vastly more enlightened, and learned how to deal with our problems twice as peacefully ... we could then limit ourselves to one attempted mass genocide per century.

Ahaaa.....a tiny bit of rose tint creeping in there

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RE: A reason to condemn Israel - 7/5/2006 10:16:34 AM   
Mercnbeth


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quote:

I finally read a newspaper today, I mean the regular one. It seems the Palestinians have one Israeli soldier "on ice" and are making some really extreme demands. They want Israel to release Women and children from the prisons.

How dare they ? You know some of those children threw rocks at Israeli tanks, you know that could scratch the paint, or damage the weaponry. You know they actually took out an Abrams tank a few years ago, they started by planting a land mine, throwing rocks at the tank and goading it into position over the mine. What a bunch of lowlife cowards, taunting a poor tank like that.

Israel should outlaw rocks, or place strict licensing requirements on them, after all, you know how many American dollars are wrapped up in one of those tanks, which are only used by a morally superior people, strictly for humanitarian reasons of course.


Termyn8,
Let's look at these "innocent, peaceful children". These are not people dedicated by a common goal of peace. The "Palestinians", were/are a group created by the Arab/Muslim countries in the region. They were the poor working people indigenous to the region who, when Israel was formed, were told by their Muslim "brothers" to leave the area while the Muslim armies wiped the fledgling state of Israel off the map. They were told, these previously very inhospitable lands, would afterward be turned over to them. After 60 years, the Muslim philosophy hasn't changed. They still seek to wipe Israel off the map.

The same problem exists with negotiating with the Palestinians as negotiating with the Muslim leaders in general. It assumes a false premise that both sides seek a peace which permits the existence of the adversary. On the Muslim side this is not true. Inherent in the Muslim religion, at least as it's represented by the vocal and visible world leaders, is the basic premise that all infidels must be assimilated or killed. "Infidel" defined as anyone non-Muslim.

But as important as the marriage law is that opened this thread. Let's look at the issues and cause behind the current "crisis" to see if it indicates anything about both sides in the conflict.

For 38 years Israel as occupied Gaza. Finally the leaders of Israel under pressure to seek "peace" unilaterally agree to leave the area, destroying all the property of their own citizens, and forcing them to move out so the new Hamas regime, after the death of Arafat, could have a "victory".

What happens to these lands? Was one school built? A hospital? A police station? Nope - the land was used to launch rockets and mortar shells into Israel; mortar shells, not rocks.

Sure, condemn Israel's marriage policy, but accept the right of Saudi Arabia to make possession of a bible a crime. For the time being we have the luxury as a society. We have the luxury because there are still enough people and power in the world to fight those who would take away the basic human rights and freedoms that allow dissent. 

The truth and integrity of the Muslim people is admirable. It's a shame that most of the west doesn't believe them when they plainly speak of their intent, and act upon it.

< Message edited by Mercnbeth -- 7/5/2006 10:29:04 AM >

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