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RE: A reason to condemn Israel - 7/5/2006 10:17:53 AM

Lordandmaster

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Well, I read a little history too now and then, and I don't think I'm as cynical as you are. Some things in history have turned out astoundingly well.

quote:

ORIGINAL: caitlyn

Cynical ... probably. It must come from reading history, and coming to the conclusion that no matter how bad something seemed at the time ... the test of time eventually shows it to be considerably worse.

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RE: A reason to condemn Israel - 7/5/2006 12:11:46 PM

Termyn8or

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OK, Mrs Olmert supports Peace Now, great. Some IDF soldiers refuse to serve, excellent.

Sharon's security fence is still there. Ever see a map of it ? It is so convoluted that it's purpose is clear. It is also still there. Or have they dismantled it and put it on the "green line" ? I think not, did I miss something ?

Why can't they just draw a line, put up a wall and all the Israelis stay on one side and the Palestinians stay on the other ? Because that would not be advantageous enough for the Israeli government. Note the word government in that sentence.

Tell me something that Prime Minister Olmert has done to ameliorate the Palestinians plight ? As for Peace Now, I have been to their website and they do not seem to disagree with me, but what have they accomplished ? Just like here, you can win in court but the government usually does what it damn well pleases.

I have recently read a bit about Prime Minister Olmert, and he is quite a bit more moderate than Sharon, but falls short of the ideal. Ideally they would do like I wrote, draw a straight line, put up a wall and be done with it. They would have to give up some of the good land and coastline, but they seem to have a problem with that. That is unfair.

LaM, I am having a hard time figuring out just what your slant is on all this. You call my post rambling nonsense but only seem to rebut one small point. Are you saying that we should not elect true leaders who will be fair with the country's neighbors ? I mean both here and in Israel. Are you saying that everything is just fine ? That one day one group will not get the drop on Israel and turn it into a glass parking lot ? That is Iran's stated intention.

What is your solution ? One way would be simply to kill most of the Palestinians, reducing them to say a few hundred thousand. They would need less land and pose alot less of a threat. Do you have any ideas, does anyone ?

It is clear that most concur that governments are the problem. Well if that be the case, where does one apply the solution ?

T

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RE: A reason to condemn Israel - 7/5/2006 3:06:59 PM

Lordandmaster

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How about, as a modest start, leaving the crazy anti-Semitic rhetoric out of it, and trying to talk about reality. Are you able to do that? You do well when you stick to facts. You don't do well when you start making absurd generalizations--like talking about how Jews are more intelligent than everyone else and want to take over the world. You have some kind of obsession about Jews, and it seems to color the way you view the world.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Termyn8or

What is your solution ? One way would be simply to kill most of the Palestinians, reducing them to say a few hundred thousand. They would need less land and pose alot less of a threat. Do you have any ideas, does anyone ?

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RE: A reason to condemn Israel - 7/5/2006 6:43:38 PM

Termyn8or

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LaM;

First off I want to thank you for being as un-insulting as possible. I respect that. I seem to insult you at times completely unintentionally, and it really is unintentional. I submit that you are a bit hyper-sensitive about the Jewish issue. I will admit that some of my remarks are derogatory about Jews, but I really try to only condemn their actions, I also admit that the fingers fly at times. I do regret the football team remark. Really.

The section you quoted of my last post was intended sarcastically. I assure you that is something I would never want to see happen, do you think I would ? Of course I realize this is the internet and you have no idea who I am or what my background is. Perhaps I am a nut. Usually admitting the possibility indicates sanity, but there are those times.....

My ideas, and indeed my ideology are radical. while my kind do not favor armed revolutions at this time, I/we do call for a drastic change in how the world is run. I don't just think laterally, I think omnidirectionally.

For example, we have NKorea and Iran, both trying to become nuclear states, but look at what is going on around them. Israel has nukes, so Israel's neighbors want nukes. A balance of power. This makes perfect sense for Iran, and if I was the leader of Iran I would do exactly the same thing, but I am not. On the other hand, some valid questions have been raised about the sanity of the leadership in NK. I do not dispute this, I simply haven't looked into it. It is not a big issue, neither Iran or NK is likely to get a first strike at a US target. But then I don't think that is their goal.

I can see Russia not being on "our" side either, YUKOS never had the clout of the old 'oilgiarchs' of Russia, but surely the Russian government can see that they are not better off by letting the US, England and Israel control all this oil. Of course it is advantageous for any country to control all this oil. We have such a bad trade deficit with China, they have enough Tbills etc., to collapse the US economy in a matter of days, that is if the US didn't have the ability to print money ad infinitum. This would cause drastic inflation in the US, and I mean drastic. They can only do so much to prop the dollar up.

If they can get involved with supplying China with oil, the US 'oilgiarchs' will actually have a positive effect on our economy. Thing is to get the job completely done, and the invasion of Iraq was not the correct strategy. They listened to the slanted hype and expected to be met with handshakes, mainly because of the negative slant on the pre-invasion conditions in Iraq. Seeing the bad they discounted all the good, and never expected so many insurgents, and so many who would support Saddam, at least over the US trying to occupy their country. What did they think ? As bad as the US government is, I would fight against an invader here, to the death.

Israel operates in her own best interest, and noone can fault them for that, however their actions have not been sufficently tempered by the international community. They want to be the sole nuclear power in the region, and I don't blame them. They stand in defiance of over 40 UN security council resolutions against them. Are we in the UN or not ? Are they ? Was Iraq ? Oh yes and Iraq didn't have the prohibited devices. They complied, but got invaded anyway. Now Saddam is on trial for what ? Do you know ? About a dozen or so murders, which may have actually been executions of would be assassins.

Can we get the details of Saddam's trial, can we get those of the Milesovic trial ? No. Spill our blood and not even tell us why.

My opinion, rebut whatever you want to, I agree to disagree. Things in the world are not always as they seem. You have enlightened me Sir, and I appreciate that. I didn't know Olmert was more moderate. While he certainly does not represent Palestinians, with a Wife in Peace Now I don't think he will be so ruthless. Time will tell.

T

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RE: A reason to condemn Israel - 7/5/2006 6:55:37 PM

Lordandmaster

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Not exactly, Termyn8or--you're not capable of insulting me because I don't know who you are and probably never will, and I can't be insulted by a stranger. It's just not possible. I don't take comments on Collarme personally.

Now to get to the issues. I'm not hyper-sensitive about what you call "the Jewish issue"; I would respond in pretty much the same way if you generalized about blacks, Hispanics, gays, or any other group (as, in fact, you've done in the past). What I am trying to do--and, alas, sometimes you make me think it's hopeless--is teach you the difference between reasoned discussion and blathering bullshit. When you talk about facts, your comments are usually very insightful. When you generalize with your bullshit stereotypes, you just detract from whatever else you might say and only convince people that you're not worth taking seriously.

You're not getting very far with discovering my views of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, which are probably quite close to yours on your good days, because you keep breaking down and bringing in stereotypes about Jews instead of talking about real issues (just as many other people keep breaking down and bringing in stereotypes of Palestinians--as we've seen even in this thread). I am not a supporter of Olmert and am skeptical that he will do what needs to be done. But he's only just been elected. Who knows. I brought up Olmert because I don't think you know nearly enough about him (or many other Israeli politicians, for that matter) to make the kind of tediously incendiary comments that you keep making about Israeli politics.

You also constantly write as though no Jews, in Israel or elsewhere, have ever opposed the Likud government and the settlement project.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Termyn8or

First off I want to thank you for being as un-insulting as possible. I respect that. I seem to insult you at times completely unintentionally, and it really is unintentional. I submit that you are a bit hyper-sensitive about the Jewish issue. I will admit that some of my remarks are derogatory about Jews, but I really try to only condemn their actions, I also admit that the fingers fly at times. I do regret the football team remark. Really.

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RE: A reason to condemn Israel - 7/5/2006 8:45:11 PM

Termyn8or

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"You also constantly write as though no Jews, in Israel or elsewhere, have ever opposed the Likud government and the settlement project. "

I think you have missed a few things here and there. I admit I am longwinded and this can happen. You seem to have forgotten that I mentioned that I respect the members of the IDF who have become 'consciencious objectors' to use a term from the draft eras of this country. You didn't notice that I mentioned the Orthodox Jews demonstrating in NY against Israel's policies. They were led by a Rabbi, in good standing.

When I speak about Israel's faults, I am speaking of the GOVERNMENT. Same here. The US is in violation of international Law by using depleted uranium weapons in Iraq. The GOVERNMENT made the decision to do that, not the grunt in the field who is either handed, or put in the seat somehow of some weapon and ordered to fire it, the soldier knows not exactly what it is all the time. He may have been told that it is a DU weapon, and just follow orders not knowing the consequences. Well the Nuremberg trials said that this is not a defense. If there is to be international Law it must be even handed and fair to everybody.

When I talk about what the US does I am not talking about my buddy Mike, or Andy or whatever. When I talk about Israel I am not talking about my buddy Chadwick, or my buddy's cousin Mark. Get the picture ?

The GOVERNMENTS of the US, England and Israel are doing wrong. Now if you call that anti-Semitic, you prove my point to everybody in spades. I did not even imply that governments represent the People of their countries. I need to make this seperation clear, as I think the lack thereof is part of the problem you have with me. The distinction must be made.

T

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RE: A reason to condemn Israel - 7/5/2006 11:22:47 PM

Lordandmaster

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No, that's hardly anti-Semitic, and you know I wouldn't say that's anti-Semitic. When you generalize about Jews, you usually end up saying something anti-Semitic, and almost always something stereotypical even if it's not derogatory. When you talk about specific governments, specific events, specific actions, you're a lot more persuasive.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Termyn8or

The GOVERNMENTS of the US, England and Israel are doing wrong. Now if you call that anti-Semitic, you prove my point to everybody in spades. I did not even imply that governments represent the People of their countries. I need to make this seperation clear, as I think the lack thereof is part of the problem you have with me. The distinction must be made.

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RE: A reason to condemn Israel - 7/6/2006 10:12:08 PM

Termyn8or

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Perhaps we only have a problem with terminology ?

I think I'll start a new thread just for this subject. Let's take it there and see if this thread survives. Really, out of respect to the CM community, I think we need to take this to another thread. I'll start it. I'm sure you'll recognize it.

Tomorrow, but I wanted to say this much. I can learn to avoid certain issues and subjects in here, but I will never become politically correct.

T

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