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RE: Mental Health - 7/19/2011 9:11:42 AM   
Lucylastic


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Profile   Post #: 181
RE: Mental Health - 7/19/2011 9:18:27 AM   
Iamsemisweet


Posts: 3651
Joined: 4/9/2011
From: The Great Northwest, USA
Status: offline 		Wow. Just wow. I think it is against the TOS to steal someone's picture.
Arpig, sorry my post confused you. I will try to be more clear in the future. However, since there are only about five people posting on here, I truly believed it wasn't that hard to figure out, and that the people involved were reading the previous posts. My bad. I apologize from the bottom of my heart. I use an iPad, the quote feature doesn't work that well. Oops, I forgot to quote your post. Guess I did it again

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(in reply to Arpig)
Profile   Post #: 182
RE: Mental Health - 7/19/2011 9:33:27 AM   
barelynangel


Posts: 6233
Status: offline 		There is remorse when one is sentenced to death and when that sentenced is carried out. That statement asking that is emotional not logical. But that doesn't change the fact it's a known consequence and one that is to be carried out. It doesn't mean people who believe it is necessary don't feel sadness and regret at the loss of life. But it's easier for people to portray people with my beliefs as cold and unfeeling. As I said earlier I don't see the death penalty as violence I see it as a consequence.

Maybe after seeing what these people dO to others I have hardened myself in how I view the death PENALTY.

Angel

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(in reply to Arpig)
Profile   Post #: 183
RE: Mental Health - 7/19/2011 10:13:12 AM   
Futuresocks


Posts: 112
Joined: 5/25/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyConstanze


quote:

ORIGINAL: HannahLynHeather

i do not have the right to kill somebody no matter what they did unless i am actively defending myself or another person. therefore, the collective "us" doesn't either. the death penalty is not used to defend anybody, the crime has been done, so it is purely for vengeance. and thus not covered by the above limitation to the prohibition on killing.




That's basically most of my issue with capital punishment, if there are laws that say killing is wrong, then it is wrong, no matter how much somebody does deserve to be killed. Now killing somebody because that person has killed, that makes the executioner (the state in this case) as morally bankrupt as the person who committed the crimes. A legal execution is still murder, no matter how much the person deserves it, I understand the desire to see such a person dead, I'd possibly would feel the same way if a family member or a friend would get killed, still doesn't make it right.



If I may, I think there is a flaw in your logic.

It is NOT the case that the governing body of law has only the rights of the individuals that make it up. It is IS the case that government (law enforcement) has powers that transcend all others. In order for society to work, rules must be enforced. These rules are decided upon by the individuals that make up and enforce these laws. Unless you are a cop, you cannot make traffic stops, cannot detain someone and be immune from being charged with kidnapping, etc.

These are restrictions of liberty, but not meaningless constructs. They are done in the name of keeping order, and are a "must" for large societies. The same is true with regards to the death penalty. Anthropology tells us that societies larger than 200 or so members must have a dedicated law enforcement system.

And no, it is not "murder" because that is a defined legal term--the unlawful taking of human life. Self-defense is not murder, and the state's execution of a convict for x or y crimes is not murder. That's the distinction. You can disagree with the death penalty, but you can't accuse the system of "murder."

(in reply to LadyConstanze)
Profile   Post #: 184
RE: Mental Health - 7/19/2011 10:46:12 AM   
PeonForHer


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Futuresocks
And no, it is not "murder" because that is a defined legal term--the unlawful taking of human life. Self-defense is not murder, and the state's execution of a convict for x or y crimes is not murder. That's the distinction. You can disagree with the death penalty, but you can't accuse the system of "murder."


Moral and ethical matters have authority over legal debates, FS, not vice versa. We can define our terms for the law here. So, we can indeed accuse the system of 'murder'.

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(in reply to Futuresocks)
Profile   Post #: 185
RE: Mental Health - 7/19/2011 11:02:46 AM   
LadyConstanze


Posts: 9722
Joined: 2/18/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Futuresocks


quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyConstanze


quote:

ORIGINAL: HannahLynHeather

i do not have the right to kill somebody no matter what they did unless i am actively defending myself or another person. therefore, the collective "us" doesn't either. the death penalty is not used to defend anybody, the crime has been done, so it is purely for vengeance. and thus not covered by the above limitation to the prohibition on killing.




That's basically most of my issue with capital punishment, if there are laws that say killing is wrong, then it is wrong, no matter how much somebody does deserve to be killed. Now killing somebody because that person has killed, that makes the executioner (the state in this case) as morally bankrupt as the person who committed the crimes. A legal execution is still murder, no matter how much the person deserves it, I understand the desire to see such a person dead, I'd possibly would feel the same way if a family member or a friend would get killed, still doesn't make it right.



If I may, I think there is a flaw in your logic.

It is NOT the case that the governing body of law has only the rights of the individuals that make it up. It is IS the case that government (law enforcement) has powers that transcend all others. In order for society to work, rules must be enforced. These rules are decided upon by the individuals that make up and enforce these laws. Unless you are a cop, you cannot make traffic stops, cannot detain someone and be immune from being charged with kidnapping, etc.

These are restrictions of liberty, but not meaningless constructs. They are done in the name of keeping order, and are a "must" for large societies. The same is true with regards to the death penalty. Anthropology tells us that societies larger than 200 or so members must have a dedicated law enforcement system.

And no, it is not "murder" because that is a defined legal term--the unlawful taking of human life. Self-defense is not murder, and the state's execution of a convict for x or y crimes is not murder. That's the distinction. You can disagree with the death penalty, but you can't accuse the system of "murder."


Self-defense is slightly different from an execution, and a system that says killing is wrong and kills and calls it an execution is simply morally corrupt.

Look, the Nazis had pretty strict legal definitions, there were pretty strict legal definitions about slaves and later on that mixed marriages were not allowed, etc., it was all pretty legal, didn't make it right, did it?


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(in reply to Futuresocks)
Profile   Post #: 186
RE: Mental Health - 7/19/2011 11:39:44 AM   
barelynangel


Posts: 6233
Status: offline 		People are generalizing way to much as to killing being wrong. Our country clearly believes at times killing is necessary and therefore legal. Please tell me where the US states all killing is wrong. I have never come across such a statement. But I might have missed it.

Angel

< Message edited by barelynangel -- 7/19/2011 11:41:53 AM >

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(in reply to LadyConstanze)
Profile   Post #: 187
RE: Mental Health - 7/19/2011 11:46:18 AM   
orchid77


Posts: 125
Joined: 5/20/2011
Status: offline 		I am copying and pasting something for you barelyangel:

Murder is a common law offence and there is no legal definition in statute, however the following requirements have been established through case law to identify murder as a criminal offence.

For a person to have committed a murder in the eyes of the law they must satisfy all the below requirements: (The Actus Reus of murder)

The victim of the killing must have been a ‘person in being’ , this means a murder will only occur if a person is unlawfully killed and that the victim is a person who is independent from their mother (not still in the womb)
The victim must have died, If a person attempts to unlawfully kill a person but they survive the attack that person would most likely be guilty of attempted murder and not actual murder itself.
The victim's death must have been caused by the act (possible failure to act) of the defendant. If a person dies of a disease, then this is not murder.
To summaries, the victim must be a person, who has died as a result of the defendants actions.

For a person to be guilty of murder they must also have the intention to kill or cause grievous bodily harm (GBH) (This is the Mens Rea of Murder)


(in reply to barelynangel)
Profile   Post #: 188
RE: Mental Health - 7/19/2011 12:27:26 PM   
PeonForHer


Posts: 19612
Joined: 9/27/2008
Status: offline 		FR

There's a peculiar kind of authoritarianism going on here, it seems to me. People don't get to nestle comfortably behind the argument that the 'this is what those great Gods, the State and its Legal System say, so it just must be right!'

To say again: it is of secondary importance how 'murder' is defined in the legal system of any country. The moral code - decided by all of us - is of primary importance. There's no reason why anyone here should accept any legal definition of 'murder'. Just, indeed, as there'd be no moral reason why we should accept a Hitler's definition of murder. The corollary of that is 'Whatever the state does must be OK, because the state does it'. It's nonsense.

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Profile   Post #: 189
RE: Mental Health - 7/19/2011 12:33:44 PM   
barelynangel


Posts: 6233
Status: offline 		Have you looked at jury instructions? Jury instructions are what are given to the jury when they go into deliberations regarding the charges against the defendant. And what must be proven there is usually for each state pattern jury instructions.

Pls provide your source as to what you copied and pasted.

< Message edited by barelynangel -- 7/19/2011 12:41:11 PM >

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(in reply to orchid77)
Profile   Post #: 190
RE: Mental Health - 7/19/2011 1:29:43 PM   
HeatherMcLeather


Posts: 2559
Joined: 5/21/2011
From: The dog house
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quote:

People are generalizing way to much as to killing being wrong. Our country clearly believes at times killing is necessary and therefore legal. Please tell me where the US states all killing is wrong. I have never come across such a statement. But I might have missed it.
I realize that several people have already tried to explain this to you, but I am going to try once more.
You are 100% correct that in almost all <I say "almost" because if I say all, somebody is bound to find one that doesn't> countries, the law defines certain circumstances where killing is legal <self defense, for example>. Nobody has disputed this. What people have been saying, is that killing is not morally right, that it is wrong in the moral sense, rather than the legal one. They are saying that being legal, does not make something right.

They are basing their argument on the understanding that moral implies something is based on basic principles of right and wrong, not on laws or customs. Take the slave trade. The slave trade was wrong, it didn't suddenly become wrong when it was outlawed, it was wrong all along.

You, on the other hand, are saying that legal does equal right. I have just one question for you.

Oral sex is illegal in some states, and legal in others.

How do you explain that it is illegal in only some states, since you claim that the law defines whether or not something is right or wrong, wouldn't the law be the same everywhere, or does the morality of oral sex vary depending on what state you are in?

E2A: Just a heads up, I couldn't confirm this definitively, but I believe your state is one where oral sex is illegal. Better hold off on those blow jobs.


< Message edited by HeatherMcLeather -- 7/19/2011 1:32:20 PM >

(in reply to barelynangel)
Profile   Post #: 191
RE: Mental Health - 7/19/2011 2:27:15 PM   
barelynangel


Posts: 6233
Status: offline 		Heather I know what people are saying and I DISAGREE with them as does the legal system. Killing is not always considered wrong and because of this legalities define when a society based on the governing forces acknowledges this. You and others are making blanket statements that moral belief is it's wrong. YOUR moral belief may be that generic but mine is not. Many people are trying to force their moral beliefs On others and in your partners words. Fuck that.

Do not presume because I am explaining one concept that has a big bearing on my beliefs I don't get people want to make moot the fact legalities show that not all people agree with killing is wrong. Legalities shOw it's not black and white and at times a necessity which makes right and wrong blurred. Sure we can all say killing someone is wrong but .... There are always buts and circumstances which blur the black and white. Legalities and necessities are two of these things.

As for a lot of illegal things. People break the law. However people shouldn't break the law if they don't want to have to deal with the consequences. I speed. If i can't deal with the consequence of same then I better not speed.

That is personal responsibility. I accept when I have to face the consequences when I break laws. I never said people shouldnt break laws I said they shouldn't if they don't want to face the consequences.

Ironically. It's against the law to share twitter passwords and you can shoot anything but whales from a moving automobile. Ironically stealing a horse is punishable by hanging still. Blow jobs seem the least of this states problems with regard to dumb laws.

Angel

Angel

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What lies behind us and what lies before us are tiny matters compared to what lies within us.
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(in reply to HeatherMcLeather)
Profile   Post #: 192
RE: Mental Health - 7/19/2011 3:38:22 PM   
HeatherMcLeather


Posts: 2559
Joined: 5/21/2011
From: The dog house
Status: offline 		That's all very interesting, but its all just repetition. You say the law proves that killing is not always morally wrong. Fine. Now please address my question directly instead of listing other dumb laws.

How is it that oral sex is morally wrong only in some states? Or more to the point, how is it that capital punishment is only morally right in some states?

Surely if something is right <or wrong>, it always is, no matter where you are?

(in reply to barelynangel)
Profile   Post #: 193
RE: Mental Health - 7/19/2011 3:44:07 PM   
LafayetteLady


Posts: 7683
Joined: 5/2/2007
From: Northern New Jersey
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyConstanze

Oh no, not at all. I'm a murdering psycho, which is why I love living in the UK, amongst lots of other murdering psychos. I could never live in a place like the USA, where the death penalty has eliminated all desire to murder amongst everybody.


I guess that must be the reason why countries with the death penalty also tend to have the highest rate of murder per capita. Stop being so do doubtful, take Texas, it clearly works for them, capital punishment and all....


Without doing the research, do they also have the highest crime rate? There would be a correlation there.

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyConstanze
quote:

SpiritedRadiance
Actually Capital punishment is one of the most quick and painless ways ANY HUMAN BEING can die.


Ohhh that is so sweet, really, it's your bleeding heart sympathy for them now? Before that you were on and on about how much better their life behind bars is than your life, which frankly says a lot about your life.

You know the Country Side Alliance tried to tell me some similar rubbish, they were on that the traditional fox hunting is the most human way of killing a fox, you'll pardon me for asking a similar question I asked them: How many times have you died peacefully in your sleep and how many times on an electric chair, and yes, it must be so quick to be in death row for a few years and never knowing when, really, I do wonder why not everybody who suffers from a painful, terminal illness and is denied assisted suicide just doesn't kill somebody they think deserves death to get that wonderful humane and painless way to die you advertise here?


A high majority of death sentence states have moved to lethal insjection as the most "humane" means of exceucting someone. Very mcuh like euthanasia. If euthanasia is appropropiete for an animal, arguing it is "painful" for human is quite contractictory.

The comparison between assististed suicide and the dealth penalty just aren't comparable regardless of any similariites. However, you can't support one without supporting the other. Both involve killing a human being (regardless of the wording), but end the life because the qualit of the "patient's life will ceaxe to exist. In a criminal, we protact society from furture acts of violence, with euthanasia, we protact someone from future pain and confusion.

quote:

SpiritedRadiance

I am not lacking of intelligence in any way shape or form. you might think so but then your entitled to your opinion.



Thank you, but I didn't really need your permission, free countries you know...

quote:

SpiritedRadiance

For those who have shown that they are not able to respect human life, their life should be taken from them.

Those that rape should be raped in the same manner that they attack their victims

Am I barbaric because of it? Possibly. Am I lacking a moral compass? Nope, I just have different shades of gray then you do.


As I said, a lot of countries agree with you, just grab a burka, those countries seem to have the same shades of grey as you do.

Now just since you said you are intelligent, I want to know your solution how you would rape a man in the same manner that he raped his victim, so assuming the victim was a woman, would you suggest giving the rapist a sex change first? I know you're all on about fairness and such, so a couple of tens or hundreds of Ks in tax payer's money shouldn't make a difference, as long as they are not living in those luxury cells that are better than your dwellings.
Who do you think should perform those "justice rapes" then? Because obviously every sane person with a moral compass would get excited about sticking it into a guy like that, I just wonder how you keep the ones that are so eager to do that away from society then, as they are obviously ticking time bombs...

Surely you must have a solution for that?

quote:

Ohhh that is so sweet, really, it's your bleeding heart sympathy for them now? Before that you were on and on about how much better their life behind bars is than your life, which frankly says a lot about your life.

You know the Country Side Alliance

(in reply to LadyConstanze)
Profile   Post #: 194
RE: Mental Health - 7/19/2011 3:45:57 PM   
LillyBoPeep


Posts: 6873
Joined: 12/29/2010
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: HeatherMcLeather

Surely if something is right <or wrong>, it always is, no matter where you are?



well i don't think that's right. most people think it's okay to defend yourself, even if the person who's attacking you dies.
if you hid Jews in your attic during the Holocaust, it was okay to lie to protect them, even though lying is generally considered wrong.
many people think it's okay to do something normally considered "bad" to prevent something worse from happening.


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Profile   Post #: 195
RE: Mental Health - 7/19/2011 4:06:19 PM   
Iamsemisweet


Posts: 3651
Joined: 4/9/2011
From: The Great Northwest, USA
Status: offline 		xx


< Message edited by Iamsemisweet -- 7/19/2011 4:13:58 PM >

(in reply to HeatherMcLeather)
Profile   Post #: 196
RE: Mental Health - 7/19/2011 4:17:06 PM   
HeatherMcLeather


Posts: 2559
Joined: 5/21/2011
From: The dog house
Status: offline 		You've made a good point Lilly, as usual, But I think what you are talking about is more a justifiable wrong, rather than it being morally right.

In your examples, in each case I would say that the choices taken were still morally wrong, but that the circumstances forced one to make those choices anyway.

You're absolutely right, sometimes it is necessary to to do evil to prevent a greater evil, but that does not negate the evilness of your act, it simply excuses it. That's how I see it at any rate.

(in reply to LillyBoPeep)
Profile   Post #: 197
RE: Mental Health - 7/19/2011 4:32:40 PM   
barelynangel


Posts: 6233
Status: offline 		Come on Heather you can figure out the answer as to why some States have certain laws and why some don't. You seem to be able to grasp things and have a semblance of intelligence.  Use it.  Here's a clue the very fact that some States still have it indicate that there isn't a GENERAL consensus in the US as to it being wrong in and of itself.   While you are trying to play dumb, we both know you knew this answer.   If you really need a lesson, try looking up how laws are made on the State level.

angel

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What lies behind us and what lies before us are tiny matters compared to what lies within us.
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(in reply to Iamsemisweet)
Profile   Post #: 198
RE: Mental Health - 7/19/2011 4:37:08 PM   
LillyBoPeep


Posts: 6873
Joined: 12/29/2010
Status: offline 		that's not the way i look at it; i attach a concrete wrong and a concrete right to only a few actions. for the others, the context is just as important.
if someone lies to save an innocent life, i consider that a right action, period, not a mitigated evil.

(eta: just to add, i'm keeping my opinions on cp to myself, i'm just yammering about universality of moral codes -- i don't believe moral codes are universal, but i do believe people can change each other's minds.)


< Message edited by LillyBoPeep -- 7/19/2011 4:38:46 PM >

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Profile   Post #: 199
RE: Mental Health - 7/19/2011 4:40:30 PM   
barelynangel


Posts: 6233
Status: offline 		Exactly Lillybopeep, there is always a BUT.... or an if this than that.  There is no moral consensus in our country, i.e., the US.  The fact people try and say their moral beliefs are the right way to believe.  

Killing is EVIL?  So a 5 year old who kills his brother because he found a gun and shot him committed an EVIL act?  A person who is driving a car and loses control of same and kills someone commits an evil act?  A doctor who is doing surgery and makes a mistake and the person dies even though it was a known risk the doctor commited an evil act.

Good grief -- now we are throwing around the world EVIL when it comes to killing.  Talk about emotional drama being brought in.

angel

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What lies behind us and what lies before us are tiny matters compared to what lies within us.
R.W. Emerson


(in reply to barelynangel)
Profile   Post #: 200
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