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RE: Is the Catholic Church a force for Good ? - 7/31/2011 12:23:52 PM

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From: Tamaris
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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika

quote:

You see, individual believers are not churches.

And churches would have no power without individual believers.

I think in cases like the catholic church, it has gone beyond the control of the believers, it has become a power unto itself and it would not surprise me if some of those that weild papal power in the vatican are'' in it '' for their own benefit, not those they say they serve.

Just out of interest, how wealthy is the catholic church, how much wealth is in the vatican, and how much of that wealth was stolen from other cultures, you know the new world perhaps where the catholic went to convert, rob and disease people minding their own business.

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Everything we are is the result of what we have thought, the mind is everything, what we think, we become - Guatama Buddha

Conservatism is distrust of people tempered by fear - William Gladstone

(in reply to LadyAngelika)

RE: Is the Catholic Church a force for Good ? - 7/31/2011 12:34:45 PM

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Aneirin, I can guarantee you that if every registered Catholic wrote to their diocese to have their baptism annulled and stopped contributing to the collection basket, the power would collapse in an instant.

The church has not steeple without its sheeple. ;-)

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Une main de fer dans un gant de velours ~ An iron hand in a velvet glove

(in reply to Aneirin)

RE: Is the Catholic Church a force for Good ? - 7/31/2011 4:54:31 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

FR:

For those we believe that the Catholic Church is a force of evil in the world:

1. Do you believe that Christianity is a force of evil in the world?

2. Do you believe that Islam is a force of evil in the world?

Firm

I think Christians and Muslims are deluding themselves that their "Testaments" are anything but unauthorized fanfics. There is no sequel to the bible. ( See also, 10 commandments )

_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to FirmhandKY)

RE: Is the Catholic Church a force for Good ? - 7/31/2011 4:59:13 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Anaxagoras

quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle
The Catholic Church is run by a FUCKING NAZI.

And if I have to explain to you why being a Nazi is a bad thing, then you're so out of touch with reality it's not worth even trying.

Thats untrue. He was in Hitler Youth at a time when it was obligatory and refusal meant being sent to a "re-education" camp. Since then he has acknowledged the suffering of the Jews and visited concentration camps.

HOORAY! Pope-Nazi visited Concentration Camps! Now he can be forgiven ( by the Nazi Apologists at least ) for providing material support to the Nazi Regime by doing tasks which eased their burden elsewhere ( you know, exactly like those who have been prosecuted and convicted for providing material support to al qaeda by sending blankets and medical supplies.... )

You know who else visited a concentration camp? Anne Frank. It's where she died. And she died because pieces-of-shit like Pope-Nazi didn't have the balls to die fighting the Nazi, but instead PUT ON THE FUCKING UNIFORM AND MANNED ANTI-AIRCRAFT GUNS... ( How many Americans did Ratzinger shoot at? )

< Message edited by farglebargle -- 7/31/2011 5:00:17 PM >

_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to Anaxagoras)

RE: Is the Catholic Church a force for Good ? - 7/31/2011 5:47:32 PM

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From: Eire
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quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

quote:

ORIGINAL: Anaxagoras

quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle
The Catholic Church is run by a FUCKING NAZI.

And if I have to explain to you why being a Nazi is a bad thing, then you're so out of touch with reality it's not worth even trying.

Thats untrue. He was in Hitler Youth at a time when it was obligatory and refusal meant being sent to a "re-education" camp. Since then he has acknowledged the suffering of the Jews and visited concentration camps.

HOORAY! Pope-Nazi visited Concentration Camps! Now he can be forgiven ( by the Nazi Apologists at least ) for providing material support to the Nazi Regime by doing tasks which eased their burden elsewhere ( you know, exactly like those who have been prosecuted and convicted for providing material support to al qaeda by sending blankets and medical supplies.... )

You know who else visited a concentration camp? Anne Frank. It's where she died. And she died because pieces-of-shit like Pope-Nazi didn't have the balls to die fighting the Nazi, but instead PUT ON THE FUCKING UNIFORM AND MANNED ANTI-AIRCRAFT GUNS... ( How many Americans did Ratzinger shoot at? )

There is nothing to forgive. He was a fourteen year old boy who only became a member of Hitler Youth when it was mandatory or faced what was in effect a concentration camp himself. If he or his family showed the slightest enthusiasm for the Nazi regime then there would be something to complain about but they didn't. A cousin of his was killed due to T4 eugenics campaign. At the age of fifteen or so he was drafted but eventually deserted. He does not remotely compare with those who freely and voluntarily support terrorists. Its one thing to be angry that there was little resisitance from the German people to the Nazi regime, its quite another to expect teenage boys to defy it and face probable death.

(in reply to farglebargle)

RE: Is the Catholic Church a force for Good ? - 7/31/2011 5:53:07 PM

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quote:

He was a fourteen year old boy who only became a member of Hitler Youth when it was mandatory or faced what was in effect a concentration camp himself

He should have gone to the Concentration Camp rather than join the Nazis. You know, doing the right thing. THAT I would have respected. But, of course, like any coward, he did the easy thing, and joined the Nazis, put on the uniform, and manned an anti-aircraft gun aimed at AMERICAN SOLDIERS...

What bothers me is the implication of your nazi-apologist stance. It seems that if you're being honest about "there being nothing to forgive", that you think that obeying Nazi Law was enough reason to join evil. It logically follows that you wouldn't have any reservations about joining the Nazis in the same situation. You know, otherwise you'd be breaking Nazi Law and could get into trouble.

I don't know how you have the balls to show yourself in public after taking a stance like that.... That it's OK to join the Nazis -- to stay out of trouble....

Real Men fought the Nazis. What do we call those who don't have the balls and would join Hitler's campaign to exterminate my family?

< Message edited by farglebargle -- 7/31/2011 6:01:28 PM >

_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to Anaxagoras)

RE: Is the Catholic Church a force for Good ? - 7/31/2011 6:04:21 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

quote:

He was a fourteen year old boy who only became a member of Hitler Youth when it was mandatory or faced what was in effect a concentration camp himself

He should have gone to the Concentration Camp rather than join the Nazis. THAT I would have respected. But, of course, like any coward, he did the easy thing, and joined the Nazis, put on the uniform, and manned an anti-aircraft gun aimed at AMERICAN SOLDIERS...

Anne Frank didn't get no choice, did she?

Upon reflection, no, not just a coward. Ratzinger is evil. By joining the Nazis, he sucked on Satan's Cock, and there's no going back once you've sucked Satan's Cock and been a Nazi...

Thats total crap. We are talking about a teenage boy who was put under extreme duress to join Hitler Youth, facing persecution and quite possibly death if he didn't tow the line. What happened to Anne Frank and the million and a half other Jewish children was truly awful. If he had any actual hand in that (such as telling the authorities about Jews) I could understand you bringing that up but he didn't. He did the bare minimum he had to do to survive under the most vicious totalitarian regime that existed. For that he cannot be faulted. No fourteen/fifteen year old can be expected to sacrifice themselves, and also gravely endanger their family in doing so.

< Message edited by Anaxagoras -- 7/31/2011 6:08:27 PM >

(in reply to farglebargle)

RE: Is the Catholic Church a force for Good ? - 7/31/2011 6:13:05 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Anaxagoras

quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

quote:

He was a fourteen year old boy who only became a member of Hitler Youth when it was mandatory or faced what was in effect a concentration camp himself

He should have gone to the Concentration Camp rather than join the Nazis. THAT I would have respected. But, of course, like any coward, he did the easy thing, and joined the Nazis, put on the uniform, and manned an anti-aircraft gun aimed at AMERICAN SOLDIERS...

Anne Frank didn't get no choice, did she?

Upon reflection, no, not just a coward. Ratzinger is evil. By joining the Nazis, he sucked on Satan's Cock, and there's no going back once you've sucked Satan's Cock and been a Nazi...

Thats total crap. We are talking about a teenage boy who was put under extreme duress to join Hitler Youth, facing persecution and quite possibly death if he didn't tow the line. What happened to Anne Frank and the million and a half other Jewish children was truly awful. If he had any actual hand in that (such as telling the authorities about Jews) I could understand you bringing that up but he didn't. He did the bare minimum he had to do to survive under the most vicious totalitarian regime that existed. For that he cannot be faulted. No fourteen/fifteen year old can be expected to sacrifice themselves, and also gravely endanger their family in doing so.

In my religion, at the age of 13, you are expected to conduct yourself properly without excuses. You'll certainly understand why "He was only 14" as an excuse to join the Nazis doesn't carry any weight with me. He had is chance to do the right thing, and instead he joined the Nazis.

But of course, you'd do the same thing as he did under the circumstances, isn't that right, Adolph? If you didn't believe that joining the Nazis was a legitimate thing, why would you defend him?

< Message edited by farglebargle -- 7/31/2011 6:14:54 PM >

_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to Anaxagoras)

RE: Is the Catholic Church a force for Good ? - 7/31/2011 6:23:56 PM

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From: Eire
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quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

quote:

ORIGINAL: Anaxagoras

quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

quote:

He was a fourteen year old boy who only became a member of Hitler Youth when it was mandatory or faced what was in effect a concentration camp himself

He should have gone to the Concentration Camp rather than join the Nazis. THAT I would have respected. But, of course, like any coward, he did the easy thing, and joined the Nazis, put on the uniform, and manned an anti-aircraft gun aimed at AMERICAN SOLDIERS...

Anne Frank didn't get no choice, did she?

Upon reflection, no, not just a coward. Ratzinger is evil. By joining the Nazis, he sucked on Satan's Cock, and there's no going back once you've sucked Satan's Cock and been a Nazi...

Thats total crap. We are talking about a teenage boy who was put under extreme duress to join Hitler Youth, facing persecution and quite possibly death if he didn't tow the line. What happened to Anne Frank and the million and a half other Jewish children was truly awful. If he had any actual hand in that (such as telling the authorities about Jews) I could understand you bringing that up but he didn't. He did the bare minimum he had to do to survive under the most vicious totalitarian regime that existed. For that he cannot be faulted. No fourteen/fifteen year old can be expected to sacrifice themselves, and also gravely endanger their family in doing so.

In my religion, at the age of 13, you are expected to conduct yourself properly without excuses. You'll certainly understand why "He was only 14" as an excuse to join the Nazis doesn't carry any weight with me. He had is chance to do the right thing, and instead he joined the Nazis.

No offense but I don't care in the slightest about your religion. It doesn't matter to me or the vast majority of the people on here. We are discussing what was the right thing to do for a teenage boy irrespective of belief so religion doesn't come into it. He had a number of choices. Did he do the right thing? That's debatable. Did he do the wrong thing by not sacrificing his life and gravely endangering the rest of his family? Of course not. He was an individual who did not go out of his way to harm others. Others did, they are the ones you should be condemning.

quote:

But of course, you'd do the same thing as he did under the circumstances, isn't that right? If you didn't thing that joining the Nazis was a legitimate thing, why would you defend him?

That's a cheap shot. I do not know what I would do faced with that kind of situation. Didn't some Jews even finger their own kind to save themselves? The point is that no one truly knows what they would do in life and death situations.

Its bullshit to suggest I said joining the Nai's was legitimate. That's strawmanning. I said that under pain of persecution and possibly death a teenage boy shouldn't be criticised for joining. See the difference?

(in reply to farglebargle)

RE: Is the Catholic Church a force for Good ? - 7/31/2011 6:31:10 PM

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If youre really expecting him to see the difference you havent read many of his posts. Im surprised he sees the difference between his refrigerator and his toilet. They are both white. (Im assuming of course they allow him to have a refrigerator in his 6x6 room).

_____________________________

Hear the lark
and harken
to the barking of the dogfox,
gone to ground.

(in reply to Anaxagoras)

RE: Is the Catholic Church a force for Good ? - 7/31/2011 6:32:38 PM

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FR

I see the Catholic Church, in which I grew up, as a force for both good and evil over time.

FORCE FOR GOOD

-- Preservation of important parts of Western culture during the Dark Ages.
-- For much of history, the church provided such few social services as there were.
-- Magnificent sponsorship of the arts, resulting some of humankind's greatest cultural treasures.
-- Efforts by dl las Casas (et al) to defend Native American rights after the Americas were "discovered."
-- Teachings on the dignity and worth of every human being.
-- Teachings on economic justice.
-- Rallying point for resistance to totalitarianism behind the Iron Curtain.
-- As mentioned above, liberation theology was often the only voice against some oppressive regimes, particularly in Latin America.

FORCE FOR EVIL

-- Abuse of children.
-- Failure to provide moral leadership against Nazism.
-- Coziness with Franco, Mussolini.
-- Inquisition.
-- Teaching that Catholicism is the only true religion (of course, other faiths do this too).
-- Homophobia
-- Denial of ordination to women

I'm sure others can come up with additional examples.

_____________________________

No matter how cynical you become,
it's never enough to keep up.

JANE WAGNER, THE SEARCH FOR SIGNS OF
INTELLIGENT LIFE IN THE UNIVERSE

(in reply to farglebargle)

RE: Is the Catholic Church a force for Good ? - 7/31/2011 6:34:39 PM

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You left out what imo is the worst of the evils...covering up the child abuse and enabling it to continue. People, even priests, have failings. Their organizations should be better than them.

_____________________________

Hear the lark
and harken
to the barking of the dogfox,
gone to ground.

(in reply to dcnovice)

RE: Is the Catholic Church a force for Good ? - 7/31/2011 6:38:29 PM

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Farble doesn't get it and refuses to allow how many deaths his voting has resulted in, hence the diatribe here.

(in reply to Anaxagoras)

RE: Is the Catholic Church a force for Good ? - 7/31/2011 6:39:34 PM

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Good point, Willbe. I used "Abuse of children" as shorthand for the whole sordid situation, but the cover-up warrants a call-out of its own.

_____________________________

No matter how cynical you become,
it's never enough to keep up.

JANE WAGNER, THE SEARCH FOR SIGNS OF
INTELLIGENT LIFE IN THE UNIVERSE

(in reply to willbeurdaddy)

RE: Is the Catholic Church a force for Good ? - 7/31/2011 6:41:57 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy
You left out what imo is the worst of the evils...covering up the child abuse and enabling it to continue. People, even priests, have failings. Their organizations should be better than them.

True, what does PRIEST stand for: Paedophile rapist in every small town. In Ireland its a particularly bad problem. Its not so much the appalling deed itself but the efforts of the church to cover it up when they knew about it that's abhorrent. Recently there was a report in one diocese where there were supposed to be all these new rules to protect children but the church was still covering it up. The emissary to the Holy See acted with contempt. He didn't even bother replying to letters from the government about the issue. Then the prime minister made a blistering attack on the Vatican and they appear to have recalled the emissary without making an official response to the report. Its pretty fucked up.

(in reply to willbeurdaddy)

RE: Is the Catholic Church a force for Good ? - 7/31/2011 6:43:24 PM

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Hey, you don't APOLOGIZE for Nazis unless you're sympathetic to Nazis. Simple enough. And Nazi Sympathizers should do the world a favor and put a revolver in their mouths and blow their brains out just like their Uncle Adolph. ( N.B.: Use a Walther semi automatic instead of a revolver for thorough historical accuracy... )

< Message edited by farglebargle -- 7/31/2011 6:44:54 PM >

_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to Anaxagoras)

RE: Is the Catholic Church a force for Good ? - 7/31/2011 6:45:46 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy

If youre really expecting him to see the difference you havent read many of his posts. Im surprised he sees the difference between his refrigerator and his toilet. They are both white. (Im assuming of course they allow him to have a refrigerator in his 6x6 room).

Once again, you are wrong. Our fridge is black.

_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to willbeurdaddy)

RE: Is the Catholic Church a force for Good ? - 7/31/2011 6:47:50 PM

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Damn Wilbe, if you would just quit beleiving in the Easter Bunny, you wouldn't believe how many things we might agree upon.

(in reply to Edwynn)

RE: Is the Catholic Church a force for Good ? - 7/31/2011 6:48:30 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Anaxagoras
That's a cheap shot. I do not know what I would do faced with that kind of situation.

Sure you do. You'd do the same thing you've already told us was the right thing to do. Join. How could you not, if it's good enough for the Pope?

Not only are you carrying water for a Nazi, but by doing that you show yourself to be a Nazi Sympathizer ( otherwise how could you honestly justify Ratzinger's actions? ) and that in the same situation, that you yourself lack the balls to do the right thing.

< Message edited by farglebargle -- 7/31/2011 6:49:41 PM >

_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to Anaxagoras)

RE: Is the Catholic Church a force for Good ? - 7/31/2011 6:49:40 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy

If youre really expecting him to see the difference you havent read many of his posts. Im surprised he sees the difference between his refrigerator and his toilet. They are both white. (Im assuming of course they allow him to have a refrigerator in his 6x6 room).

Once again, you are wrong. Our fridge is black.

You sure that isnt the water in the toilet?

_____________________________

Hear the lark
and harken
to the barking of the dogfox,
gone to ground.

(in reply to farglebargle)

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