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ORIGINAL: Anaxagoras

Indeed but he asked was I a Catholic. Taking an undue interest

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ORIGINAL: RapierFugue

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ORIGINAL: Anaxagoras
Indeed but he asked was I a Catholic. Taking an undue interest

It wasn't an undue interest. It was merely an enquiry.

I'm happy to declare myself agnostic, for example. I see no reason for anyone to feel ashamed of their religion, or indeed lack of, in this day and age.

If you don't want to answer a straight question then of course that's fine.

Who am I kidding; you find it impossible to answer a straight question :)

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ORIGINAL: Anaxagoras

I too am agnostic bordering on the atheistic. I do not believe in God. Happy now? I assume not!

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ORIGINAL: Anaxagoras

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ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika
I am in no position to condemn him for his actions. None. I would hope to think that in his situation, I would refuse to join, that I would resist. I cannot guarantee this or prove this (and anyone who says they would, isn't being very realistic). We don't know what we're made of until we are forced to face it.

But when I say it goes to strength of character, it's because they didn't just chose him to for just any leadership position. They chose him to be the representative of their god on earth. That's where it gets tricky.

As I see it, it really depends on whether or not the ordination of the Pope is seen as a divine choice as the will of God, in which the issue of his past would be a concern. I believe though that few would judge any mature adult in their own right based on their actions in their early teenage years.

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Personally, I find that trying to hold him accountable for his actions when he was 14 is unnecessary since he's contributed to a great deal of the world's evil since he's been an adult, has joined the church and increasingly so since he's become Pope.

The actions of the church are a complex issue relating to a clash between their traditional morality and reality. I feel that dragging their feet on the need for condoms in Africa is inexcusable however due to the massive loss of life due to AIDS. One of the things I could say in Ratzinger's defence though, is that he was a liberal until the effects of 1968, and he was the first of the senior Catholic hierarchy to make a serious move on the paedophile issue and the first Pope to unambiguously apologise for the actions of the church.

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ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika
As for judging adults for the person they were in their teenage years, well I think that is a personal choice based on our personal criteria and what is expected of us and our society. In some societies, 13 years old is a man who has all the responsibilities of an adult.

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The move was not serious. The move was simply words. No one was held accountable, no one was jailed (unless I missed something somewhere along the way...). I don't accept that as a serious move. On this we absolutely disagree.

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ORIGINAL: Anaxagoras

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ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika
As for judging adults for the person they were in their teenage years, well I think that is a personal choice based on our personal criteria and what is expected of us and our society. In some societies, 13 years old is a man who has all the responsibilities of an adult.

Indeed in some societies thirteen year olds are expected to do so. I think though that most would feel that is inappropriate today, for example the use of child soldiers is considered a crime. Regardless of responsibility though, how I see it is that he was an elderly man in his 70's when he was considered a candidate for Pope. He like everyone else would have done a lot of growing up since 14. People change so much that IMHO they might as well not be the same person by that stage.

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The move was not serious. The move was simply words. No one was held accountable, no one was jailed (unless I missed something somewhere along the way...). I don't accept that as a serious move. On this we absolutely disagree.

That could certainly be argued and I think not enough has been done even by Ratzinger but at least he has done considerably more than others about sex abuse including controversially change church law. Famously he persued Father Marcel for years. Marcel was a highly powerful individual who started the Legion of Christ and had a lot of powerful friends, even the previous pope. Ratzinger brought proceedings against him and his order but Marcel died the following year.

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ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika

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ORIGINAL: Anaxagoras

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ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika
As for judging adults for the person they were in their teenage years, well I think that is a personal choice based on our personal criteria and what is expected of us and our society. In some societies, 13 years old is a man who has all the responsibilities of an adult.

Indeed in some societies thirteen year olds are expected to do so. I think though that most would feel that is inappropriate today, for example the use of child soldiers is considered a crime. Regardless of responsibility though, how I see it is that he was an elderly man in his 70's when he was considered a candidate for Pope. He like everyone else would have done a lot of growing up since 14. People change so much that IMHO they might as well not be the same person by that stage.

Of course he grew up. And in all honesty, I really believe people can change if they really want to. Hey, there was a time in my life I was a member of this cult called the catholic church, even participated actively, until the age of 13 before I started drawing the curtains to reveal the wizard, and people have forgiven me that ;-)

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The move was not serious. The move was simply words. No one was held accountable, no one was jailed (unless I missed something somewhere along the way...). I don't accept that as a serious move. On this we absolutely disagree.

That could certainly be argued and I think not enough has been done even by Ratzinger but at least he has done considerably more than others about sex abuse including controversially change church law. Famously he persued Father Marcel for years. Marcel was a highly powerful individual who started the Legion of Christ and had a lot of powerful friends, even the previous pope. Ratzinger brought proceedings against him and his order but Marcel died the following year.

Still not enough. He could have turned them over to civil courts that would have dealt with it. Again, Ratzinger, who likely didn't change that much, went with the popular movement in power to save his skin. So did he really change?

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You sound like a real heathen now! I come from a "Katlik" background myself but for some reason never really believed even when very young. Belief must be the result of a characteristic predisposition besides a given environment. Atheism came naturally but I can still appreciate the comfort faith brings to others especially in times of personal distress.

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That's why I think that he isn't as bad as many in the church.

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ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika

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You sound like a real heathen now! I come from a "Katlik" background myself but for some reason never really believed even when very young. Belief must be the result of a characteristic predisposition besides a given environment. Atheism came naturally but I can still appreciate the comfort faith brings to others especially in times of personal distress.

Same here. I can understand why people believe, even if I can't.

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That's why I think that he isn't as bad as many in the church.

Well given how low the bar was...

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ORIGINAL: Aneirin

The catholic church is the Vatican, I am asking if the church is a force for good, it's history suggests it is not. Now the believers are a different thing, they have to live in the real world, so live life as best they can according to their conscience and the prevailing conditions of living, and it does not take religion to make a person a good and caring person with good morals, that is the realm of conscience. So what the believers aka followers of the catholic church do is largely seperate from the doctrinal belief, so in that case if the real world dictates such variations from the Vatican and papal belief, could that be saying the latter is out of touch and indeed perhaps dying in the face of the modern world ?

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The catholic church is the Vatican

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ORIGINAL: cloudboy

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The catholic church is the Vatican

Spoken like a non Catholic.