RE: Almost everyone lost on the budget deal.

RE: Almost everyone lost on the budget deal. (Full Version)

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MusicalBoredom -> RE: Almost everyone lost on the budget deal. (8/4/2011 7:02:14 AM)
I haven't seen "Confiscate the nations wealth" as a proposed solution from anyone. I don't think the right is really saying that people should starve to death. I don't think the left is saying that the government should take all of the wealth in the country and make sure that all people have exactly the same income. I do think that both parties use these types of statements to accuse the other side of all sorts of ridiculous things. It's what's keeping us from making any real headway. People with lower incomes tend to fill out a 1040EZ and get a big chunk of what they paid though the year as a refund and at least hope that they don't owe more. People with much higher incomes and business tend to hire accountants or even tax attorneys so that they pay the least tax possible. I believe that a huge majority of the people do everything they can to pay as little as they can. I also believe that the ones that make the most absurd accusations are the ones that will personally benefit in a big way from people believing their garbage. We need sane and realistic discussions on these things if anything is going to change. We can't cut all of the life line programs simply because some people take advantage of them any more than we can shut down the military because some contractors rip off the government. Fraud is fraud and it should be stopped and or prosecuted. We can cut our expenses but it is a process it's not a light switch. If my household is operating in the negative I can't just say that I'll stop paying my rent or mortgage to fix it. I don't think that a slight increase in taxes for the middle class or even the lower income will break people. I don't think anyone has piles of cash that they want to throw away but maybe $100 a year in more taxes is something that is realistic. I don't want to hear companies justify their BS with saying they will create jobs if they lower their taxes either. Make them put their money where their mouth is, give a tax credit to them for every payroll dollar they collect rather than give them a bunch of tax credits and hope they create jobs. Do I think our leadership has done a good job? No I don't. I also don't think that they are evil and trying to do something horrible. I think the people that are most responsible for our current economic mess is us though. We are the ones that need so many flat screen TVs in our house that we can only afford to buy the cheap ones overseas. We are the ones that spent every Saturday watching how to flip a house on TV and then going out to do just that even when it created an entirely false economy that eventually crashed. We are the ones that think that cell phones and cars are right of every individual. We are the ones that shifted our focus in our businesses from "how can I best serve my customer" to "how can I make the most profit" as our primary focus. We aren't going to have any real change as long as we want someone else to fix a problem that we ourselves are responsible for. Greed and an eroding sense of ethics are our biggest problems and it is spread though the entire economic strata of this country. Okay, rant over. [edited to fix a few sloppy sentences]

mnottertail -> RE: Almost everyone lost on the budget deal. (8/4/2011 7:02:41 AM)
that is probably the largest collection of misinformation and non sequiturs gathered in one place.

Anarrus -> RE: Almost everyone lost on the budget deal. (8/4/2011 7:25:18 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MusicalBoredom I haven't seen "Confiscate the nations wealth" as a proposed solution from anyone. I don't think the right is really saying that people should starve to death. I don't think the left is saying that the government should take all of the wealth in the country and make sure that all people have exactly the same income. I do think that both parties use these types of statements to accuse the other side of all sorts of ridiculous things. It's what's keeping us from making any real headway. People with lower incomes tend to fill out a 1040EZ and get a big chunk of what they paid though the year as a refund and at least hope that they don't owe more. People with much higher incomes and business tend to hire accountants or even tax attorneys so that they pay the least tax possible. I believe that a huge majority of the people do everything they can to pay as little as they can. I also believe that the ones that make the most absurd accusations are the ones that will personally benefit in a big way from people believing their garbage. We need sane and realistic discussions on these things if anything is going to change. We can't cut all of the life line programs simply because some people take advantage of them any more than we can shut down the military because some contractors rip off the government. Fraud is fraud and it should be stopped and or prosecuted. We can cut our expenses but it is a process it's not a light switch. If my household is operating in the negative I can't just say that I'll stop paying my rent or mortgage to fix it. I don't think that a slight increase in taxes for the middle class or even the lower income will break people. I don't think anyone has piles of cash that they want to throw away but maybe $100 a year in more taxes is something that is realistic. I don't want to hear companies justify their BS with saying they will create jobs if they lower their taxes either. Make them put their money where their mouth is, give a tax credit to them for every payroll dollar they collect rather than give them a bunch of tax credits and hope they create jobs. Do I think our leadership has done a good job? No I don't. I also don't think that they are evil and trying to do something horrible. I think the people that are most responsible for our current economic mess is us though. We are the ones that need so many flat screen TVs in our house that we can only afford to buy the cheap ones overseas. We are the ones that spent every Saturday watching how to flip a house on TV and then going out to do just that even when it created an entirely false economy that eventually crashed. We are the ones that think that cell phones and cars are right of every individual. We are the ones that shifted our focus in our businesses from "how can I best serve my customer" to "how can I make the most profit" as our primary focus. We aren't going to have any real change as long as we want someone else to fix a problem that we ourselves are responsible for. Greed and an eroding sense of ethics are our biggest problems and it is spread though the entire economic strata of this country.Okay, rant over. [edited to fix a few sloppy sentences] Excellent post!! Your last sentence nails it. The only things I'd add is we are also the ones (at least some of us) who own shares in the corporate entities many of us complain about as evil. We have our 401k s, our pensions, our mutual funds, etc. and we all expect, even demand, a solid return and as much growth in wealth on them as possible without considering the ramifications of our expectations and demands. "We have met the enemy and he is us" Pogo

Sanity -> RE: Almost everyone lost on the budget deal. (8/4/2011 7:33:40 AM)
Sloth is a far worse problem than greed We have far too many people who are happy to live on unemployment, food stamps, their parents or grandparents wealth... and far too few greedy fuckers working their asses off to make things happen Nothing happens economically, without greed

Anarrus -> RE: Almost everyone lost on the budget deal. (8/4/2011 7:38:36 AM)
Yeh..greed is good! Gotcha there Gordon[:D]

Lucylastic -> RE: Almost everyone lost on the budget deal. (8/4/2011 7:40:37 AM)
you wouldnt know the truth if it flew up your nose and fucked your sinus cavities 8 million jobs were lost, not walked out of people didnt just get up and go home, they were disposed of....... now they are all lazy and good for nothing slothful greedy fuckers, no matter how many years work they put into the country before being slung out to fill the pockets of investors and bonus's? for CEOs and management?? you are truly all mouth and gas

willbeurdaddy -> RE: Almost everyone lost on the budget deal. (8/4/2011 7:42:25 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: WyldHrt quote: ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy quote: ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam 250K a year around here and I have a 4000 SF house on the lake with My own boat dock and a couple of boats. Travel about anywhere and any time I want and no significant debt within 4 years. I'd call that wealthy. Location location location. $250k in TN is a totally different world than $250k in coastal CA. No offense, Willbe, but as someone making ends meet on about 1/10th of that (I live in coastal CA, too), I kind of have to call bullshit on the idea that $250K somehow isn't wealthy, even here. TBH, watching those who rank in the top 1.5% as regards (US) income trying to pretend they are 'middle class' makes me a bit ill. HillWilliam is quite correct, regardless of location. It depends on your definition of "wealthy". If you want to stick to a mathematical definition of "middle" and anything above that is wealthy, obviously you are correct. If you talk about differences in lifestyle then "wealthy" is very subjective. My "middle class" definition is obviously much wider, ie it takes a lot more to move from upper middle class to wealthy than yours. To me the difference is that the wealthy can buy what they want [within reason] when they want without thinking "Can I afford this". By within reason I mean that Im not talking about airplanes, boats etc, but am talking about 100k cars, European vacations, etc. UMC cant. Since youre in SoCal you might understand this comparison...to me upper middle class is a 3500 sq foot home in Laguna Niguel. Wealthy is a 2200 sq ft home in Emerald Bay. They are vastly different worlds, but the 2200 sf home in Emerald Bay certainly doesnt require "super wealth". Youre welcome to your own defintion, but to put it another way, the $250k earner in SoCal is living from paycheck to paycheck, not drawing on a trust fund.

MusicalBoredom -> RE: Almost everyone lost on the budget deal. (8/4/2011 7:45:19 AM)
I'm not quite sure how the people on food stamps created the whole mess that came first from the Savings and Loan "bubble" of the 80s, the Bond "bubble" and the Internet bubble of the 90s and finally the real estate bubble of this decade. The housing issue led to people leaving lucrative jobs to rush to the housing boom, we over purchased, over lent and over built. Then the whole thing fell apart. Every day someone was saying that the economy was going to suffer in the end but we just decided to keep after it regardless of the long term effects. That to me is greed and I'm not sure how that can even remotely be considered to be a good thing or how we can possibly blame it on people on Food Stamps. Is there Food Stamp fraud? I'm sure there is and we should stop it. That's it's own set of greed and ethical problems. From the dictionary: Greed: 1. excessive consumption of or desire for food; gluttony 2. excessive desire, as for wealth or power Note the word "excessive." The desire isn't the problem, it's the excessive part. Desire may indeed drive a portion of the economy but that does not indicate that greed does.

Sanity -> RE: Almost everyone lost on the budget deal. (8/4/2011 7:49:01 AM)
When government pays people to not work that is a problem, due to human nature All animals gravitate to the easiest and least risky sources of sustenance And we are indeed animals quote: ORIGINAL: Lucylastic you wouldnt know the truth if it flew up your nose and fucked your sinus cavities 8 million jobs were lost, not walked out of people didnt just get up and go home, they were disposed of....... now they are all lazy and good for nothing slothful greedy fuckers, no matter how many years work they put into the country before being slung out to fill the pockets of investors and bonus's? for CEOs and management?? you are truly all mouth and gas

MusicalBoredom -> RE: Almost everyone lost on the budget deal. (8/4/2011 7:50:31 AM)
Willbeur I probably don't agree with you politically but I do agree that $250K isn't some tremendous amount of income. To those who are struggling on $25K it seems like a fortune but at $25K you are probably not paying for 4 years of collage for your kids. Nobody like financial stress. Nobody likes it when the bank calls. I'm not sure what income provides for stress free living but I'm pretty sure that it isn't $250K.

lockedaway -> RE: Almost everyone lost on the budget deal. (8/4/2011 7:52:30 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Lucylastic you wouldnt know the truth if it flew up your nose and fucked your sinus cavities 8 million jobs were lost, not walked out of people didnt just get up and go home, they were disposed of....... now they are all lazy and good for nothing slothful greedy fuckers, no matter how many years work they put into the country before being slung out to fill the pockets of investors and bonus's? for CEOs and management?? you are truly all mouth and gas Sanity is right and you are wrong as usual. And...Anarrus, you are incorrect also. Neither sloth nor greed are good things, in fact, aren't they both included in the list of 7 deadly sins? But I would rather have greed tempered with honesty than sloth tempered with honesty, wouldn't you? Like it or not, ambition is usually present where there is greed. So greed tempered by honesty gives you an ambitious person that will likely live independently of the government and be a contributing part of society. Lucy's post is stupid for too many reasons to list. It is written from the standpoint of someone who works for someone else and feels that they are OWED something. She bitches about CEO's who make a lot of money and aren't hiring anyone or who scaled back their work force. You know...that is called trimming fat. And if a CEO can keep profits high and yet run a leaner outfit, people in MORE educated, MORE prosperous, MORE business savvy and MORE successful circles than Lucy has ever run in will call that CEO brilliant. Anarrus....no one owes you ANYTHING. Do you agree? No one owes you a job or a house or a color TV or even lunch for that matter. Isn't that true? I listen to the libs on this board and it makes me think of Janis Joplin's entreaty for God to buy her a Mercedes Benz.

Lucylastic -> RE: Almost everyone lost on the budget deal. (8/4/2011 7:53:10 AM)
the need for shelter and food is not greed, thats a basic of life greed is trickle down economics and kicking 3000 people out to make divi's and ceo bonus;'s The 8 million didnt have much of a choice about losing their jobs how can you even believe otherwise

Sanity -> RE: Almost everyone lost on the budget deal. (8/4/2011 7:54:21 AM)
The housing bubble was caused by Chris Dodd and Barney Frank, leftists who felt they had to make it possible for people who dont make any real money to buy fantastic houses on super easy credit Call it a federal house stamps program And of course leftists define "excessive desire" as anyone working hard to earn wealth and not giving leftists their free stuff while the leftist badmouths them quote: ORIGINAL: MusicalBoredom I'm not quite sure how the people on food stamps created the whole mess that came first from the Savings and Loan "bubble" of the 80s, the Bond "bubble" and the Internet bubble of the 90s and finally the real estate bubble of this decade. The housing issue led to people leaving lucrative jobs to rush to the housing boom, we over purchased, over lent and over built. Then the whole thing fell apart. Every day someone was saying that the economy was going to suffer in the end but we just decided to keep after it regardless of the long term effects. That to me is greed and I'm not sure how that can even remotely be considered to be a good thing or how we can possibly blame it on people on Food Stamps. Is there Food Stamp fraud? I'm sure there is and we should stop it. That's it's own set of greed and ethical problems. From the dictionary: Greed: 1. excessive consumption of or desire for food; gluttony 2. excessive desire, as for wealth or power Note the word "excessive." The desire isn't the problem, it's the excessive part. Desire may indeed drive a portion of the economy but that does not indicate that greed does.

Sanity -> RE: Almost everyone lost on the budget deal. (8/4/2011 7:59:41 AM)
Things like cold and hunger are natures way of telling people to get to work Take away natures incentives to get "greedy" and you effectively kill the incentive that were naturally born with as individual members of an animal species to survive Ask any naturalist Feed wild animals and you effectively kill them We are no different I am not saying we shoudlnt have safety nets, its the hammocks that we shouldnt have quote: ORIGINAL: Lucylastic the need for shelter and food is not greed, thats a basic of life greed is trickle down economics and kicking 3000 people out to make divi's and ceo bonus;'s The 8 million didnt have much of a choice about losing their jobs how can you even believe otherwise

Lucylastic -> RE: Almost everyone lost on the budget deal. (8/4/2011 8:00:37 AM)
Locked, , LMAO You cannot refute what I have said so you just rubbish my post by saying Im stupid. What is stupid is you not being able to see other peoples lives and realities , only what you expect, Oh and its you that knows nothing, you are guessing and hitting WRONG every time. Thats some STUPID ASSumptions

mnottertail -> RE: Almost everyone lost on the budget deal. (8/4/2011 8:01:57 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Sanity The housing bubble was caused by Chris Dodd and Barney Frank, leftists who felt they had to make it possible for people who dont make any real money to buy fantastic houses on super easy credit Then who caused it in the UK, Taiwan, and pretty much globally and in China right now today?

lockedaway -> RE: Almost everyone lost on the budget deal. (8/4/2011 8:02:01 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MusicalBoredom I'm not quite sure how the people on food stamps created the whole mess that came first from the Savings and Loan "bubble" of the 80s, the Bond "bubble" and the Internet bubble of the 90s and finally the real estate bubble of this decade. The housing issue led to people leaving lucrative jobs to rush to the housing boom, we over purchased, over lent and over built. Then the whole thing fell apart. Every day someone was saying that the economy was going to suffer in the end but we just decided to keep after it regardless of the long term effects. That to me is greed and I'm not sure how that can even remotely be considered to be a good thing or how we can possibly blame it on people on Food Stamps. Is there Food Stamp fraud? I'm sure there is and we should stop it. That's it's own set of greed and ethical problems. From the dictionary: Greed: 1. excessive consumption of or desire for food; gluttony 2. excessive desire, as for wealth or power Note the word "excessive." The desire isn't the problem, it's the excessive part. Desire may indeed drive a portion of the economy but that does not indicate that greed does. Musical....when you lay the blame of the mortgage bubble on Clinton and his doubling down on the Community Reinvestment Act and his repeal of Glass Steagall, I will give your posts the credit they are due. Are you like every lib on this board who lionizes that idiot hillbilly who REALLY got this cluster fuck put in place? Back in law school in the late 1980's, I had a law professor who was very much ahead of the game...brilliant man. He warned of the mortgage meltdown 17 years before it happened. He warned that social engineering and having a society based on credit without the credit worthiness of the individual would cause a crash tantamount to the Great Depression. Who was president??? Ronald Reagan. What this professor did not predict (and how could he?) was the repeal of Glass Steagall or Clinton demanding that 50% of Fannie Mae's backed paper be shit. Now you seem like a pretty erudite guy. So tell me...where does the blame lie for the mortgage meltdown crisis. I hope you will answer this post. Before you do, however, please Google "number of times Bush warned about Fannie Mae" and see what you get.

Sanity -> RE: Almost everyone lost on the budget deal. (8/4/2011 8:02:46 AM)
"Mercedes Benz" Oh Lord, won't you buy me a Mercedes Benz ? My friends all drive Porsches, I must make amends. Worked hard all my lifetime, no help from my friends, So Lord, won't you buy me a Mercedes Benz ? Oh Lord, won't you buy me a color TV ? Dialing For Dollars is trying to find me. I wait for delivery each day until three, So oh Lord, won't you buy me a color TV ? Oh Lord, won't you buy me a night on the town ? I'm counting on you, Lord, please don't let me down. Prove that you love me and buy the next round, Oh Lord, won't you buy me a night on the town ? Everybody! Oh Lord, won't you buy me a Mercedes Benz ? My friends all drive Porsches, I must make amends, Worked hard all my lifetime, no help from my friends, So oh Lord, won't you buy me a Mercedes Benz ?

lockedaway -> RE: Almost everyone lost on the budget deal. (8/4/2011 8:06:16 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Lucylastic Locked, , LMAO You cannot refute what I have said so you just rubbish my post by saying Im stupid. What is stupid is you not being able to see other peoples lives and realities , only what you expect, Oh and its you that knows nothing, you are guessing and hitting WRONG every time. Thats some STUPID ASSumptions Don't be an idiot, of course I addressed your post. Jobs exist at the discretion of the job provider. If I can employ a skeleton work force and make the same profit as I did when I had a huge work force, I am going to have a skeleton work force. That directly addressed the moron stupidity in your post. You believe that CEO's have a duty to hire people.........to hire them. To get them off the street. You are, as usual, wrong. The company hires people to help them make money and increase the bottom line.....period. THERE IS NO OTHER REASON. And if you can't recognize that I said that in my response to you, you need an english class in addition to an economics class.

lockedaway -> RE: Almost everyone lost on the budget deal. (8/4/2011 8:07:43 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: mnottertail quote: ORIGINAL: Sanity The housing bubble was caused by Chris Dodd and Barney Frank, leftists who felt they had to make it possible for people who dont make any real money to buy fantastic houses on super easy credit Then who caused it in the UK, Taiwan, and pretty much globally and in China right now today? Read my post to Musical. YOU answer the question, Ron. Where do you lay the blame for the mortgage crisis in the U.S.? Please cite your sources. We await your wisdom.

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