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ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

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ORIGINAL: LadyHibiscus

We blame porn for so much, but perhaps it's also a function of the culture of entitlement. I'm sure you've met the men who think that offering themselves for play is sufficient, and we should feel grateful.

Could be. But I know that this 'offering of oneself' is a pretty common part of the sub fantasy. 'Here I am as a thing for you to take and use'. How could someone not want that, and not be grateful for it?


I don't think porn is the root problem either, though it certainly feeds it. The fact is that people spend a lot more time connecting with their inner worlds of fantasies than with real people in the outside world. They've 'trained' themselves this way from a very early age. It can take a long-term, conscious wrench to connect in a human way with what one first sees as a manifestation of a fantasy - a projection.

We all know this - we find it out when we first start on the romantic trail, as teens or even earlier. But maybe that inner fantasy world amongst kinksters exercises a greater pull than the fantasy worlds of vanillas, and it's harder for us to get it under control. Certainly, to my mind, the common problems that submales and femdoms have with each other have a strong flavour of the teen-romance about them, albeit one that's got distilled into something more potent, thus more addictive. When I first came to CM, I felt like a teen all over again, just left boys' school and mixing with girls at parties. It was a great feeling, but one that I knew I had to control. Bit of Carl Jung again: Sirens have a habit of leading poor male sailors to their deaths. Not good.

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ORIGINAL: AAkasha
Sometimes I think the "offering of oneself" is the fantasy itself and what comes after that (does she say yes? does she say no? Does she say nothing?) is irrelevant anyway. It's the mental/emotional version of the cockshot in the email. The man presents himself as obtainable and available to a woman he perceives as dominant; the mere act of doing this is fueling his fantasies and keeping his dreams alive, and provides for great emotional and sexual masturbation material. Whatever she says doesn't matter, because he can go through the process again in a week. This also may explain why some men disappear once a woman shows interest. The idea of belonging to someone, forever, in a relationship, is huge -- the thought of making the OFFER is very highly sexually/emotionally charged.

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ORIGINAL: Slaveforlife789

This is how I view it! However, I should have some brain too and know what pleases my lady, being breakfast in bed, massaging her feet or just getting her a flower. Pleasing the lady is what pleases me!

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ORIGINAL: Slaveforlife789

That will not be MY lady my freind.

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Perhaps it'd help if dominants were to accept that not every part of them is dominant, and not every part of submissives is submissive.

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You make an amusing point, but I do wonder if this is part of the crux of the matter...and it's no one's fault, but I wonder if part of the fantasy/allure for submissive men (relationship-seeking submissive men, not fetishists or bottoms) is the perception that this kind of "female led" relationship comes without the burden of intimacy-development, relationship-development on them at all.

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ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika

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Perhaps it'd help if dominants were to accept that not every part of them is dominant, and not every part of submissives is submissive.

Yanno, I agree 100%. So when I want to talk about my life, my hobbies, my dreams and they respond by changing the subject, wanting to know if I have a puppy cage for them to sleep in and if I'll pee on them.... well that's part of the crux of the disconnect ;-)

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ORIGINAL: subbingforyou

My take, LadyAngelika, is that you are framing your post in a confusing way. The way I interpret it, you are basically saying, "My conception of dominance/submission is not one that many subs like, and so I have trouble finding one."

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Fair enough. From that point, though, I am not sure what you are trying to find out.

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Are you assuming everyone shares your problem?

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Are you trying to determine if and what aspects of what you like are so far outside the bell-shaped curve that you would consider changing them?

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Are you simply trying to find out what other people's experience is in terms of how much their ideal fantasy situation that are able to capture in real life?

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I think if you are more specific, you will get a more fruitful discussion.

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ORIGINAL: LadyConstanze

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ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika

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Perhaps it'd help if dominants were to accept that not every part of them is dominant, and not every part of submissives is submissive.

Yanno, I agree 100%. So when I want to talk about my life, my hobbies, my dreams and they respond by changing the subject, wanting to know if I have a puppy cage for them to sleep in and if I'll pee on them.... well that's part of the crux of the disconnect ;-)

LOL, nope, that's just when all desire leaves me and I'd say a polite but hasty "It's been nice getting to know you, good luck!"

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ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

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ORIGINAL: AAkasha
Sometimes I think the "offering of oneself" is the fantasy itself and what comes after that (does she say yes? does she say no? Does she say nothing?) is irrelevant anyway. It's the mental/emotional version of the cockshot in the email. The man presents himself as obtainable and available to a woman he perceives as dominant; the mere act of doing this is fueling his fantasies and keeping his dreams alive, and provides for great emotional and sexual masturbation material. Whatever she says doesn't matter, because he can go through the process again in a week. This also may explain why some men disappear once a woman shows interest. The idea of belonging to someone, forever, in a relationship, is huge -- the thought of making the OFFER is very highly sexually/emotionally charged.

You could well be right. If so, it's more fuel for the idea that there are different parts of the psyche, and they're in conflict with one another. The key 'parts' here are a) the fantasy of being available to be 'used', 'owned' or in some general way controlled and b) the part of him who is controlling the fantasy - shaping it and managing it in all the ways that suit him best. And that latter will have been refined over the years - it'll actually be quite a big sort of control. So it's a major paradox.

To me, the main message about all this is to recognise the size of what one is up against. But I guess we all know that already. Somewhat depressing.

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For what it's worth, if there was one technique I'd suggest both sides use a bit more often, it'd be to inject humour. Be a goddess one minute, blow a raspberry the next.

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ORIGINAL: Slaveforlife789

Though the question maybe directed mainly to dominant females, I will respond from a male submissive perspectives, well my own:

Submission is a state of mind in which a male longs for giving up control for what he sees as his leader/owner and guardian. It is a great feeling being owned by someone you trust- trust is a huge thing since a true submissive, in my opinion, do not just submit to anyone. This is why I will never go after professional dominatrix though I do respect their profession. For me, submission is an act outside of the bedroom first. I will not be fulfilled to be a servant only in the bedroom. Also, this does not mean a man should be a door mat ALL THE TIME (nice to be sometime ) but rather a person with intellect, opinion and his own style. The beauty is about knowing that a dominant lady will listen and appreciate the comments from her submissive while making the final call. It is actually very hard for an intelligent submissive man to accept the ruling that comes from a dominant lady who is not at the same level.

Each individual has his/her own strengths/weaknesses and it is very sexual for a dominant lady to accept the submissive suggestions, when appropriate. A full vanilla life is needed for healthy Domme-slave relationship while the dominant partner has the power to “switch” the submissive anytime anywhere. This is how I view it! However, I should have some brain too and know what pleases my lady, being breakfast in bed, massaging her feet or just getting her a flower. Pleasing the lady is what pleases me!

Finally, like any partners, conflicts WILL erupt and it is only through negotiation a solution should be reached- ideally a solution that maximizes the benefits for both.

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ORIGINAL: LadyConstanze

Hey, anything for a quick escape...