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There is the question of what do these people consider submission. One of the things I've come to realise is that what I consider to be submission from a man is very different than what most men who want to offer me submission view it.

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So the question isn't how wide is the disconnect between submissive men and dominant women or why does it exist, it's how large is the disconnect between submissive men and you and why does it exist? The "you" in this sentence is the general "you" and applies to everyone.

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I don't think it's possible or wise to generalize on this topic, and I don't imagine this thread will go any better than discussions of what is "real" or "true" ever go.

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It's just as important, if not more so, to look inward at yourself, or myself, and determine if what we want is realistic and reasonable. Introspection and self-awareness is something every person should strive for, which is why I took great pains to point out that my use of "you" was in the general sense that can and does apply to everyone and not the personal use that applies to you as an individual.

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ORIGINAL: AAkasha

I think "how wide is the disconnect" is often related to how much porn vs. how much real life (both vanilla and kinky) experience a man has with a woman, but that's not always the case.

There are two different disconnects I personally see: Relationship (dominance/submissive) disconnect and topping/bottoming disconnect.

With relationship "sub/femdom" disconnects, I think most men with their heart/head in the right place can work on getting a grip on reality and move to a positive place, especially if the femdom is willing and invested and interested in compromise and working with what might be some of his more 'hard wired' perceptions. There is a process of re-education that has to take place. The big disconnect I find is that sub men are impatient (and femdoms, too) and want it all to work properly right out of the gate. There are disappointments that come up when expectations have to be aligned, and it's not a matter of just saying, "Well, I am the femdom so I am right, you have to just pound sand."

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But the femdom also has to WANT to invest the time in helping align expectations, and that won't happen if there has been no build up of affection or trust. A man is not worth the effort if he's already being unrealistic and pushy before she has had a chance to find him charming and pleasant and worth sitting down with and figuring out where the disconnect is. I think a great deal of disconnect comes down to impatience.

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With tops/bottoms, I think the large disconnect is when a sub isn't honest about his fetishes. He may say he just wants to serve and the manner doesn't matter, but it's a short period of time before he's hinting and forgot to mention he liked "x, y and z" and then soon you find out, really, it's ONLY about x, y and z. I am very specific about my fetishes and I know what I like. I address this pretty early on by making sure I work to *program* him to enjoy my fetishes through positive reinforcement, and this helps identify if he's really into surrender, or just hanging in there until I get to his list of fetishes. If I know that's all he wants, he isn't going to get it, because I will lose interest far, far in advance.

But again, it comes down to patience; if the man who wants x, y and z fetish, and only those fetishes, is patient enough to let affection and genuine attraction develop, chances are I am going to be engaged enough to incorporate x, y and z into my style. If that's all he wants though, and really, I'm just a service provider, then things will end before that stage is reached. I don't mind incorporating fetishes into my play with personal partners, but I have very specific sadistic needs that I need met. If he's just sucking it up and doing these things in hopes I am going to turn around and match his fantasies, we're not on the same page anyway.

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ORIGINAL: SylvereApLeanan

Really?  You specifically asked for opinions from those who don't feel there's a disconnect and their reasons for feeling that way.  My perspective is that IF there's a disconnect, it is equally divided between both the male and female partners' expectations, which may or may not be realistic and shouldn't be laid solely at the feet of submissive men. 

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And now you're essentially saying, "agree with me or don't post."  Maybe you should have stated in your OP that you only want people to post who will pat you on the back and tell you how right you are and are not genuinely interested in diverse viewpoints.  It would save everyone time and frustration.

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ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika

Nope, not at all what I wrote. You clearly misinterpreted my OP. Look at Akasha's response as she seems to have gotten it.

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Again, not what I wrote. What I was saying is that if all you can do is complain about my choice of topic rather than contributing to it in a productive fashion, you'd be doing us a service by abstaining.

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Never did I asy don't post and putting words in my mouth is kind of a cheap shot, don't you think? I clearly remembered you as someone more fair than that.

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ORIGINAL: SylvereApLeanan

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ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika

Nope, not at all what I wrote. You clearly misinterpreted my OP. Look at Akasha's response as she seems to have gotten it.

The burden of clarity in communication is on the speaker, in this case, you.  If I have misinterpreted, then perhaps you were less clear than you supposed your OP to be.

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ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika

Quite possibly I could have been more clear. I've often said I come in here with half-formed ideas.

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That said, you could have asked for a clarification rather than attacking my presmise and making assumptions about me. Right?

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ORIGINAL: Epytropos

There seems to be an implication here that there are things which are reasonable or unreasonable to expect. To me it seems that it makes the most sense to expect whatever it is that makes you happy and try to find someone that fits that. Probably that springs in part from the fact that what I want is uncommon and to many unreasonable, I guess, but still it strikes me as strange that we as Dom/mes, of all people, are having a discussion over what is and is not acceptable to want.

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ORIGINAL: SylvereApLeanan


From my perspective, it's perfectly valid to want whatever one wants.  However, it's not valid to set up a false dichotomy that presumes a disconnect between two groups based on one's personal preferences.  As you pointed out, what I want may be rare, but that doesn't mean there's a disconnect between dominant women and submissive men (or women).  It means there's a disconnect between me and the majority of submissive people.  The disconnect is one I have created, not one that is universal.  Rather than looking for an external source for this disconnect, I should be looking at myself. 

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ORIGINAL: LadyConstanze
Now if you state clearly what you are looking for and you get spammed by masturbation fantasies that haven't even bothered to read your profile, I don't think you need to look at yourself, it's then fairly obvious that a lot of people don't bother reading your profile. 

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Come on, we all have noticed that there is a disproportionally larger share of guys who come here and are driven by porn fantasies about what submission is than women willing to indulge such porn fulled fantasies, maybe that's what I would think the disconnect is.

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ORIGINAL: SylvereApLeanan
For example, my best friend is a submissive man who identifies as a slave.  He and his girlfriend/domme are very well matched.  However, you might not consider him submissive at all.  He is cheeky, sarcastic and calls bullshit when he sees it, even when it's on her. And that's what she likes.  She's called him the fool to her queen, because he is allowed to say things no one else is.  He's allowed to give her an honest, even critical opinion and she'll take it.  But there's no doubt about who is in charge in their relationship.  None. 

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ORIGINAL: SylvereApLeanan

From my perspective, it's perfectly valid to want whatever one wants.  However, it's not valid to set up a false dichotomy that presumes a disconnect between two groups based on one's personal preferences.  As you pointed out, what I want may be rare, but that doesn't mean there's a disconnect between dominant women and submissive men (or women).  It means there's a disconnect between me and the majority of submissive people.  The disconnect is one I have created, not one that is universal. Rather than looking for an external source for this disconnect, I should be looking at myself.