RE: roiting in croydon and penge

Join Our Community

Collarchat.com

Home Login Search

RE: roiting in croydon and penge

View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest

All Forums >> [Casual Banter] >> Off the Grid >> RE: roiting in croydon and penge

Page: << < prev 18 19 20 [21] 22 next > >>

Login

Message

<< Older Topic Newer Topic >>

RE: roiting in croydon and penge - 8/10/2011 9:07:36 PM

Posts: 3873
Joined: 8/29/2008
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aynne88

Arpig, I notice that you like to "latch on" to others words when it suits you, when Aswad wasn't referring specifically to Lady C at all, yet your quoted portion makes it seem as though he is and that you are agreeing. Not nice, that.

You spotted something I didn't, so thank you.

As you say, I was certainly not referring to Lady Constanze, with whom I feel that I have a good rapport.

Health,
al-Aswad.

Vindication.

. Thanks so much Aswad, and you actually made that clear, at least to me.

_____________________________

As long as people will shed the blood of innocent creatures there can be no peace, no liberty, no harmony between people. Slaughter and justice cannot dwell together.
—Isaac Bashevis Singer, writer and Nobel laureate (1902–1991)

(in reply to Aswad)

RE: roiting in croydon and penge - 8/10/2011 9:14:59 PM

Posts: 3873
Joined: 8/29/2008
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aynne88

Seriously....jacking fucking stuff that isn't your from shops and homes that hard working decent people paid for and then calling it anarchy to justify it? Meanwhile selling the flatscreen to buy some blow. Yeah..anarchy my ass. Call it what you will, they are laughing their asses off at the morons that think they have any political motivation whatsoever, fuck I would bet most of these useless little wanna be gangsters don't even vote.

Naivete. Amazing.

The chances are that they don't know or care about whatever anyone thinks is the political motivation, or any motivation at all, behind what they're doing. And, I agree, there's a strong chance indeed that they don't vote.

To me, what's unbelievably naive is the belief that these riots should lead us all to a) work out whether they're morally, politically or otherwise justified or not - they're not, that's bloody obvious - then seamlessly move on to b) how, exactly, they should be punished.

Most of them aren't going to get caught and are not going to get punished. We don't have the infrastructure or the culture behind it to deal with what's happening here. There are a total of six water-cannon vehicles, in Northern Ireland, across the Irish Sea, that might be brought in. Given 24 hours notice. They're only of use against crowds that stand fast, throwing stones or other projectiles, and who don't disappear into shopping centres. The police here are scared of using rubber bullets because these can kill, and the death of one man at the hands of the police is already widely blamed as the catalyst of the riots in the first place. Considering that children as young as 11 have been involved in these riots, what are the chances that the death of a child by means of a rubber bullet will trigger off even more and bigger riots?

The right wing "solution" to these riots is utter crap. No offence, Aynne, and nothing personal, but it really is dangerously naive to believe that if only the authorities were to "get harsh", that'd sort it all out. The chances are extremely high that firstly, it's not even possible for our police and legal system to "get harsh" in any way that'd be helpful and b) if it even tried, it could make things far, far worse. Don't take my word for that, take it from the leading police officers that we have here. These people are not known for being politically-correct lefties.

I know the right wing prides itself on being "realistic", "down to earth", and derisive of all that's "politically correct". I don't care about that. What I *do* care about is the utterly stupid, short-sighted and downright dangerous view that, somehow, the bog-standard right-wing line of "catch 'em, chop their bollocks off" attitude just must be what's required here. It isn't. It's brainlessly naive to think that it is. It is NOT going to work to solve this present problem, however much some people might fondly reminisce about how it's apparently solved other problems elsewhere and in the past.

I would counsel all: hold your 'instincts' and your 'common sense', however much you think they're free of PC or other political indoctrination. They're shit. They are not up to the job at hand. Get scientific. Get strategic. Most of all, start with the question of 'how do we solve this?' rather than 'Are these rioters justified, and if not, how tightly should we squeeze their testicles in a clamp?'.

So folks, how do we solve the problem of these riots? Practical answers only, please. Answers that might, outside of fairyland of right or left, actually *work*.

Peon, sorry I have been at my other job bartending all night and just got in. Just to clarify, I am very liberal, a progressive, always have been. I despise the right wing and the GOP in general. I also pretty much find myself in the anti-authority camp, however... with age comes some wisdom and looting isn't nor has it ever been an effective political statement. Al I am saying is that these punks are not doing one thing that has a political undertone to it, they are jacking shit, plain and simple, it's like all of a sudden everyone that doesn't want to be drafted is a goddamn "conscientous objector". My ass.

Trust me when I tell you I am not a friend of the law or police in general. Corruption isn't pretty on either side of this mess.

_____________________________

As long as people will shed the blood of innocent creatures there can be no peace, no liberty, no harmony between people. Slaughter and justice cannot dwell together.
—Isaac Bashevis Singer, writer and Nobel laureate (1902–1991)

(in reply to PeonForHer)

RE: roiting in croydon and penge - 8/10/2011 9:46:10 PM

Posts: 7683
Joined: 5/2/2007
From: Northern New Jersey
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad

quote:

ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady

As someone else said, you behave like a rabid dog, you will be treated like a rabid dog.

While I don't dispute the statement, I would add a corollary:

Treat people like rabid dogs, and they're more likely to behave like rabid dogs.

First, I have a lot of respect for your well thought out, intelligent posts. As someone who has needed government assistance since getting injured a couple of years ago, I can tell you that "being on the dole," a very discriminatory term by the way, is not nearly being treated like a rabid dog. Yes, in the US, it is the equivalent of just surviving, but rabid dogs need to be shot.

quote:

And therein lies a spiral which will go nowhere fast, unless one finds a solution to the problem that approaches it from another angle. In the rest of your post, you advocate a war of escalation. If there is an underlying problem, escalation will simply entrench the parties and polarize society in a way that supports further violence that escalates without bounds. At some point, the groups that could early on have been dismissed as unreasonable will be put in a situation where the only reasonable option is to take it to the next level. Then everyone loses bigtime.

quote:

What should be learned from this is that the police NEED to always have the resources to deal with such a problem, even if they never have to use them.

Actually, I don't advocate a war of escalation. I do advocate that our law enforcement and military be prepared to handle all situations adequately. By all accounts, the UK was NOT prepared to handle any violence on this kind of level.

quote:

What could alternately be learned, is that if it is necessary for police to be equipped to suppress the civilian population, there is something fundamentally wrong somewhere. And no evidence supports the notion that a particular group of people is fundamentally wrong, whereas much evidence supports the notion that some groups of people are not having their needs met whenever any significant part of a society is inclined to do violence against fellow citizens and property.

Problem here is the difference between actual needs and perceived needs. Food, shelter are actual needs. Having the government pay for your education is a perceived need. While evidence certainly points to some groups feeling that their needs are not being met, they are negating the needs of the greater populace, which is also wrong. All those people expect to have the actual need of the police being able to protect their safety met. This didn't happen. Yes, sadly, sometimes the needs of the majority (for safety) outweigh the perceived needs of a minority (the looters).

quote:

quote:

And YES, all texting and web access (and SMS if that is different) should have been shut down until this was under control.

Censorship is rarely a solution to social ills.

Shutting down texting, SMS and web access is not a form of censorship, but a means to stopping the rioters being able to communicate and continue on with their destructive, dangerous behavior. Again, in a state of emergency, certain measures must be taken. If there is a house fire on your street, your street will be closed off. It will be re-opened when it is safe to do so. No one is taking away basic freedoms. The ability to text, SMS or go on the web is NOT a basic freedom. Further it is only a temporary measure until the rioters are dispersed and no longer a threat.

(in reply to Aswad)

RE: roiting in croydon and penge - 8/10/2011 10:01:36 PM

Posts: 7683
Joined: 5/2/2007
From: Northern New Jersey
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyConstanze

quote:

ORIGINAL: Arpig

1. Let the banks and other large corporations share in the austerity. Surely if there isn't enough money to help the indigent, there isn't enough money to help the extravagantly wealthy.

2. Modify welfare programs to not only encourage people to better their situations, but to actively help them to do so, and to reward them for doing so.

1. Why should they? It would then be cheaper for them to relocate, and more jobs would be lost...

2. Modify them exactly HOW and where do you get the money from, we are having a recession. What is a solution? There are free classes and courses available, there are internships available, how are you going to encourage them to take them if not cutting their funding if they don't do so? Cutting their funding would create more trouble...

Ok, I have no idea how those programs work in the UK, but here is the problem in the states.

The programs encourage (read: try to force) a person to take any job, at any pay, even part time, because then they will be working. A single mother taking a part time minimum wage job at a grocery store will then LOSE all benefits (except medical) because the $150 bucks she brings home every week is "too much" to qualify for the rental assistance, utility assistance and food stamps she received before. So while now she is working, she is unable to provide for her family.

The way to change that would be to raise the income qualifications to a reasonable level so that people would receive assistance even while working. A single person receives $200 in food stamps and $150 cash PER MONTH, as well as being able to receive some housing assistance. A job paying $150 a week may make it logical to take away the cash assistance, but if you take the housing and the food stamps, now they can't keep a roof over their heads. Currently, the US welfare system offers help that is LESS THAN HALF of what is considered the poverty level. People who are at the poverty level and struggling can't get help.

Again, I don't know what it is like in the UK or in Europe, but really, even with a recession, that system needs to be restructured for success instead of the current structure which is designed to help people fail.

(in reply to LadyConstanze)

RE: roiting in croydon and penge - 8/10/2011 10:28:23 PM

Posts: 7683
Joined: 5/2/2007
From: Northern New Jersey
Status: offline

Before seeking a practical solution to prevent it from happening, first it has to be stopped. Once that is done and the damage assessed, THEN will be the time to talk solutions.

And while I don't live across the pond there, I'm pretty sure that those people who lost their homes, shops and cars are going to want to see the people responsible locked up for a long time. They aren't going to be thinking along the lines of "groups feeling their needs weren't being met." Those groups took away their rights and needs.

See, that's the problem here. People might support them if they went after the government offices, or the banks. But they decided to destroy the people who would be their biggest allies. So, sorry, the logic of whoever was directing people where to go is seriously flawed.

(in reply to PeonForHer)

RE: roiting in croydon and penge - 8/10/2011 10:55:41 PM

Posts: 4375
Joined: 5/26/2007
From: Hawai`i
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Arpig

quote:

Regardless of whether there are/were anarchists amongst the rioters, how does that make their actions right in any way, shape or form? Those targeted included innocent people who do not deserve to be subjected to what quickly evolved into a mob mentality riot. There is nothing about any of this that can be applauded.
I didn't say it was right in any way shape or form, I didn't applaud it. I was merely trying to discuss it rationally, something that is not possible to do, as nobody wants to do anything but dismiss it all as some massive inexplicable simultaneous outbreak of vandalism, that just happened to coincide with the march to protest an apparently unnecessary killing.

There is a saying that goes something along the lines of "you can't control the behaviour of others but you can control your own". So I do believe you can discuss it rationally - at least on your end. You can't control the responses of others, but you could control how you respond.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Arpig

quote:

You can't be serious. If you are serious, I'd be interested to hear how you can consider an opinion based on reading/watching media news as being better than someone who is actually at the scene witnessing the situation first hand.
Because the person I wrote that to wasn't witnessing anything, she was reading/watching media news from her rural home. And in this particular case, she had held a position which I had opposed and which Moonhead had provided a link to show that she was wrong. Therefore, in this particular case, I was correct and she wasn't. We were both basing our opinions on media coverage alone, and my opinion was backed up by further evidence, and hers wasn't. Context is key. CONTEXT.

Yes, quite true. And it is the context of your posts that gave me the impression you were supportive of the rioters in England, hence my earlier comment.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Arpig

quote:

What part of Canada would that be?
Southern New Brunswick, Eastern Ontario, and the Vancouver/Victoria area. The three parts of Canada where I have lived. I can't speak to other parts of the country, I haven't used the word there.

Anything else I can help you with?

I can't speak for New Brunswick, nor Eastern Ontario, but I have lived in Vancouver and I have family there. I have never heard those expressions used there, nor in common use by any Canadian for that matter. Perhaps it is something unique to your family. As for Victoria, it's known to have a huge British expat population, so I wouldn't find it unusual to hear British slang words/phrases there.

_____________________________

ExiledTyrant's groupie. Catering to his ego since May 26, 2007. :D

(in reply to Arpig)

RE: roiting in croydon and penge - 8/10/2011 11:17:55 PM

Posts: 1152
Joined: 10/4/2007
Status: offline

I have been expecting things like this for years.

Who teaches the kids respect these days?

Not teachers, they have to put up and shut up no matter what crap happens to them.

Not police, they get angry and frustrated because kids are allowed to do anything they like with little more than a slap on the wrists.

Not parents who are afraid of having their kids removed if they do more than talk to them who have virtulally no help when things go wrong and who are made to feel as if its their responsibility to support a child forever.

Not the community who have to put up with years of abuse from gangs of kids who have learned they have the power.

So you have children who think they are adults, who know they can get away with anything they please with little or no consequences who grow up into adults with no respect, with no knowledge of consequences who believe that their views and wants are more important than anyone else’s.

They then find out that they can’t have everything they want, that there are no jobs, no prospects, little for those who have worked hard, and nothing for those who squandered their chances. They are on government schemes that lead nowhere or sat at home watching day time TV and shopping channels seeing everyone else get what they believe they deserve.

So they sit together and tell each other how it isn’t fair and that everyone is trying to keep them down, and that they deserve more than this. They ignore the fact that they haven’t worked for what they believe they should have and that life isn’t fair, after all everything they have been shown in their lives so far has said “you deserve…..”

And all that frustration and unhappiness has to come out somewhere.

Society works fine when there are a small population with many resources, history shows over and over when there is a huge population in a small area you will have trouble. Usually a war, or plague sorts the problem out and you then have a new golden era for a while until the next time the population rises to problem levels.

Somehow I don’t think that is going to happen this time, for the first time in our history we have wars that only kill a few (a few compared to the huge numbers in the past) and medicines that stop millions from dying.

Society will either change or this will become common.

And I cant see society changing that fast.

Cheryl

_____________________________

Sometimes just because it looks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, doesn’t mean it is a duck, it could instead be a plastic replica that leads ducks to their ruin.

(in reply to DeviantlyD)

RE: roiting in croydon and penge - 8/11/2011 12:23:01 AM

Posts: 3918
Joined: 9/8/2010
Status: offline

Writing a decent post at this point is hard work. And I'm not sure I'm up for it after a tiring day. But what the heck.

There's no justification for the looting of innocent bystanders. It's important to get that out of the way right out of the gate. However I think it's an act of monumental ignorance to suggest this situation is purely the product of the lower echelons of society who have no morals or desire to work.

The primary contributor toward theft is opportunity. Experiements in social psychology have persistently shown that your average, everyday citizen will quite happily steal from his fellow man, given both the means and a way of justifying it to him or herself. Milgrom's experiments have shown that ordinary everyday people will do quite appalling things when ordered to by an authority figure. And the phenomenon of social proof shows that people are guided in their behaviour by others around them to the point of theft, thrill-killing or ignoring someone dying on the footpath/sidewalk.

What's interesting is that you have political figures expressing outrage over what is essentially small-time theft, yet the misuse of public funds, the plundering of the body politic by the elite passes without barely a whisper.

Lower class people aren't stupid. They have a feeling that something is profoundly wrong with the world and that there's a class who's getting way more than their fair share while they do without. And the unfortunate thing is that this reality is entirely true. Marx wrote about the impact of the credit economy - where banks can lend far more money than they actually own - and how this would inevitably bring capitalism to its knees. I don't know if he was correct, but there's no doubt in my mind that the irresponsible rampant corporate capitalism at play in the world today is responsible for many of the ills in our respective societies.

This is accentuated by the rapid decentralisation of information access. The only reason why politicians are disavowing Rupert Murdoch is because they've come to realise he no longer has centralised control of information. People don't rely on Murdoch for their information, so he doesn't have the power of a media robber-baron any more. He's becoming increasingly irrelevant in an age where the internet treats censorship as damage and routes around it.

So you have a proletariat who not only has little but knows they have little and - through the many mediums of communication available to them - knows what is happening in the halls of power and how the elitists in their society are feeding at the public trough. Or have you all forgotten the scandal over political perks. For fuck's sake people, put two and two together.

Stealing from your neighbour is bad, but stealing from the public purse by claiming expenses to which you're not entitled is not? Bollocks. They're both theft and they both should be punished equally. But, of course, they're not.

Corruption and lack of accountability are twin problems here. And corruption directly lowers the standard of living. Check the UK's position in the corruption perception index: http://tinyurl.com/2ag2kpq

Someone hit the nail on the head. The cultural imperialism of America seduces with lifestyle and drives the relentless desire to acquire goods. Contrast this with a society with corrupt practices and a crisis for which the very elite who've been feeding that the trough are responsible and you create a gap betwen the desire you've provoked and the ability for people to satisfy that desire.

So, we have:

Highly visible inequity
An underclass with little opportunity for progression
An intensely provoked desire for goods
Corruption
Hypocrisy
Decentralised access to information.
Opportunity
Social proof

That's more than enough to get the ball rolling. And the motivation, of course, is never political. It's as simple as "I'm going to get mine". The same motivation which sees politicians awarding contracts to mates and taking backhanders. You have an underclass that is behaving in exactly the same way as their leaders. Taking without regard for the consequences to others.

And before the Yanks start to feel too superior: Do any of you doubt that every single member of the US Congress is doing exactly the same thing? I like the way you call people who spend time in Washington, "lobbyists". It sounds so much better than "bag men paying off the politicians they've bought".

Crime is crime. Theft is theft. And doing it with a fountain pen is no better than doing it with a mask and a gun - although the latter is usually a lot more traumatic for those involved. If you're going to engage in widespread condemnation on the basis that something is immoral or selfish, I suggest you start at the top and work down. After all - that's where the responsibility lies.

_____________________________

Ever notice how fucking annoying most signatures are? - Yes, I do appreciate the irony.

(in reply to Cherylmazana)

RE: roiting in croydon and penge - 8/11/2011 1:46:39 AM

Posts: 265
Joined: 2/12/2011
Status: offline

Congratulations, Awareness, on the first sensible post you've ever written.

*Cracks open a small bottle of champagne to celebrate this rare and highly unexpected event*

_____________________________

Extendible lesbian.

(in reply to Awareness)

RE: roiting in croydon and penge - 8/11/2011 1:47:45 AM

Posts: 4375
Joined: 5/26/2007
From: Hawai`i
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: CreepyStalker

Congratulations, Awareness, on the first sensible post you've ever written.

*Cracks open a small bottle of champagne to celebrate this rare and highly unexpected event*

*LOL*

_____________________________

ExiledTyrant's groupie. Catering to his ego since May 26, 2007. :D

(in reply to CreepyStalker)

RE: roiting in croydon and penge - 8/11/2011 5:15:03 AM

Posts: 16520
Joined: 9/21/2009
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyConstanze

quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyConstanze
Well, education is mainly free in the UK...

Quite. It isn't like there were any riots over university fees being hiked again, were there?

That's university, but your basic education is available for free, unless you want to send your offspring to a fancy public school, comprehensives are completely free, as far as I'm informed, but I guess somebody who dropped out and then complains that they can only find a job with a minimum wage and that it's little better than the dole wouldn't be too interested in university anyway.

The basic free education, sadly, is pretty much worthless at this stage. Surely you've noticed how thoroughly GCSEs have been devalued over the last twenty years? If you want a job, you need a levels at least, and ideally one of those expensive degree things. That costs money.

_____________________________

I like to think he was eaten by rats, in the dark, during a fog. It's what he would have wanted...
(Simon R Green on the late James Herbert)

(in reply to LadyConstanze)

RE: roiting in croydon and penge - 8/11/2011 6:13:24 AM

xssve

Posts: 3589
Joined: 10/10/2009
Status: offline

Perception of inequality - it's almost invariably the driving factor behind crime, even White collar crime.

(in reply to Moonhead)

RE: roiting in croydon and penge - 8/11/2011 6:34:43 AM

Posts: 9722
Joined: 2/18/2005
Status: offline

Well, while I am not for raising the whole school fees, you got to keep things in proportion, people who get out of school and have only attended because they have been forced to do so, not interested in taking tests and scoring well, how interested are they in getting a degree? You know something that actually needs a lot of effort and yes, work, do you think that they looted to pay their university fees or pay for degrees?

You know those blazing idiots who blame it all on the foreigners stealing the benefits that should be rightfully theirs, something I hear over and over again, do you think that are worried about levels or degrees? I'm a foreigner here, I haven't gotten a penny in benefits, I doubt I took "their jobs" - but oh yeah, then there are also the Polish, people willing to work hard for the minimum wage, something that's beneath the people complaining about them. Sorry, but you know if a foreigner who comes to the country, barely being able to speak the language and willing to work hard for not all that much money can do better than you (general you) that says a lot about you...

Now regarding the riots, I saw a whole bunch of 6 cops in town, we were joking that maybe Shreik was worried about looters, when he actually should be more worried about the locals still being pissed off about that eyesore monstrosity of a house.

_____________________________

There are 10 kinds of people who understand binary
Those who do and those who don't!

http://exdomme.blogspot.com/2012/07/public-service-announcement.html

(in reply to Moonhead)

RE: roiting in croydon and penge - 8/11/2011 6:44:30 AM

Posts: 8098
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyConstanze

quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyConstanze
Well, education is mainly free in the UK...

Quite. It isn't like there were any riots over university fees being hiked again, were there?

That's university, but your basic education is available for free, unless you want to send your offspring to a fancy public school, comprehensives are completely free, as far as I'm informed, but I guess somebody who dropped out and then complains that they can only find a job with a minimum wage and that it's little better than the dole wouldn't be too interested in university anyway.

The basic free education, sadly, is pretty much worthless at this stage. Surely you've noticed how thoroughly GCSEs have been devalued over the last twenty years? If you want a job, you need a levels at least, and ideally one of those expensive degree things. That costs money.

I sadly have to agree with Moonhead...

also the earlier mentioned EMA has been scrapped

quote:

http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/EducationAndLearning/14To19/MoneyToLearn/16to19bursary/index.htm
EMA closed to new applicants in England
The Education Maintenance Allowance (EMA) scheme closed to new applicants on 1 January 2011. Schools, colleges and training providers have bursary funds to help you if you’re studying or starting a course and face financial hardship. For advice speak to student support services or your tutor

because of which also student protests took place in december/january:

http://www.channel4.com/news/student-protests-against-plans-to-axe-ema

< Message edited by Phoenixpower -- 8/11/2011 6:54:23 AM >

_____________________________

RIP 08-09-07

The PAST is history, the FUTURE a mystery, NOW is a gift - that's why it's called the PRESENT

www.butyoudontlooksick.com/navigation/BYDLS-TheSpoonTheory.pdf

(in reply to Moonhead)

RE: roiting in croydon and penge - 8/11/2011 6:49:43 AM

tj444

Posts: 7574
Joined: 3/7/2010
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: xssve

Perception of inequality - it's almost invariably the driving factor behind crime, even White collar crime.

hmmm.. i dont agree, that is one reason but not the only one or the driving one,.. i think the reasons can vary from need such as someone stealing a can of tuna to feed their kids to stealing just because you can like Haliburten overcharging the US govt to questioning authority like some looters that flaunt their theft in front of the tv news to stealing to get attention such as when some famous actress gets caught stealing when she has lots of $ in the bank and every other reason in between and multiple reasons.

How many people have not stolen a box of paper clips or a couple of pens or some such minor thing from their employer? or cheated just a bit on their taxes? Or when shopping stolen a few grapes at the grocery store? Why?

Jmo

_____________________________

As Anderson Cooper said “If he (Trump) took a dump on his desk, you would defend it”

(in reply to xssve)

RE: roiting in croydon and penge - 8/11/2011 6:52:41 AM

Posts: 8098
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyConstanze
You know those blazing idiots who blame it all on the foreigners stealing the benefits that should be rightfully theirs, something I hear over and over again, do you think that are worried about levels or degrees? I'm a foreigner here, I haven't gotten a penny in benefits, I doubt I took "their jobs" - but oh yeah, then there are also the Polish, people willing to work hard for the minimum wage, something that's beneath the people complaining about them. Sorry, but you know if a foreigner who comes to the country, barely being able to speak the language and willing to work hard for not all that much money can do better than you (general you) that says a lot about you...

_____________________________

RIP 08-09-07

The PAST is history, the FUTURE a mystery, NOW is a gift - that's why it's called the PRESENT

www.butyoudontlooksick.com/navigation/BYDLS-TheSpoonTheory.pdf

(in reply to LadyConstanze)

RE: roiting in croydon and penge - 8/11/2011 6:53:14 AM

Posts: 7522
Joined: 10/16/2007
From: Sydney Australia
Status: offline

quote:

The basic free education, sadly, is pretty much worthless at this stage. Surely you've noticed how thoroughly GCSEs have been devalued over the last twenty years? If you want a job, you need a levels at least, and ideally one of those expensive degree things. That costs money.

In examining why these riots have happened, the role of the education system seems to have been overlooked thus far.

If there is a growing sub-culture of alienated youths who have low educational levels, no marketable skills, no prospects and (it seems to them) no place in society in general, then that suggests to me that the education system is failing them. I haven't a detailed knowledge of the UK educational system (and my impression could be erroneous) so I can't really detail where the faults might lie.

But the fact that youths with such fatalistic nihilistic attitudes are exiting the school system without any real preparation for the life that awaits them tells me that there is something seriously wrong.

It seems such a tragic waste that so many young lives have been determined to be worthless so early in life, and that the kids feel there is nothing they can do about this. And if this is the case, is anyone really surprised that kids trained to be rejected and useless react in such self destructive and socially destructive ways?

_____________________________

(in reply to Moonhead)

RE: roiting in croydon and penge - 8/11/2011 6:56:09 AM

Posts: 9722
Joined: 2/18/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Phoenixpower

quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyConstanze

quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyConstanze
Well, education is mainly free in the UK...

Quite. It isn't like there were any riots over university fees being hiked again, were there?

That's university, but your basic education is available for free, unless you want to send your offspring to a fancy public school, comprehensives are completely free, as far as I'm informed, but I guess somebody who dropped out and then complains that they can only find a job with a minimum wage and that it's little better than the dole wouldn't be too interested in university anyway.

The basic free education, sadly, is pretty much worthless at this stage. Surely you've noticed how thoroughly GCSEs have been devalued over the last twenty years? If you want a job, you need a levels at least, and ideally one of those expensive degree things. That costs money.

I sadly have to agree with Moonhead...

also the earlier mentioned EMA has been scrapped

quote:

http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/EducationAndLearning/14To19/MoneyToLearn/16to19bursary/index.htm
EMA closed to new applicants in England
The Education Maintenance Allowance (EMA) scheme closed to new applicants on 1 January 2011. Schools, colleges and training providers have bursary funds to help you if you’re studying or starting a course and face financial hardship. For advice speak to student support services or your tutor

because of which also student protests took place in december/january:

http://www.channel4.com/news/student-protests-against-plans-to-axe-ema

because of which

I'm quite aware of the student protests, but you don't honestly try and make me belief that the looters were nicking iPhones because the education funding was cut back? Come on, that's absolutely STUPID! Even if you didn't listen to the interviews with the guys wearing masks and yelling, did they strike you as eager to get into education? You know those guys who are effing and blinding and blaming it on the foreigners taking their benefits....

_____________________________

There are 10 kinds of people who understand binary
Those who do and those who don't!

http://exdomme.blogspot.com/2012/07/public-service-announcement.html

(in reply to Phoenixpower)

RE: roiting in croydon and penge - 8/11/2011 7:01:28 AM

Posts: 16520
Joined: 9/21/2009
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyConstanze

Well, while I am not for raising the whole school fees, you got to keep things in proportion, people who get out of school and have only attended because they have been forced to do so, not interested in taking tests and scoring well, how interested are they in getting a degree? You know something that actually needs a lot of effort and yes, work, do you think that they looted to pay their university fees or pay for degrees?

Not what I'm talking about: Blair was so insistent that said useless cunts get a few passing grades that he lowered the education standards sufficiently to let somebody scrape a C if they spell their name right on the exam paper and turn up in class three days out of five.
The knock on effect of that, of course, is that the kids who actually made an effort to do any work in school have had their certificates devalued as well.

_____________________________

I like to think he was eaten by rats, in the dark, during a fog. It's what he would have wanted...
(Simon R Green on the late James Herbert)

(in reply to LadyConstanze)

RE: roiting in croydon and penge - 8/11/2011 7:05:24 AM

Posts: 16520
Joined: 9/21/2009
Status: offline

The student protests and this bullshit are two separate things (though it is worth pointing out that you got a few twats in hoodies turning up for those hoping they'd have cover to loot somewhere as well). The only reason I mentioned them was in reply to your (incorrect) observation about secondary education being free over here. It isn't, and hasn't been since Major pulled the plug on student grants.

_____________________________

I like to think he was eaten by rats, in the dark, during a fog. It's what he would have wanted...
(Simon R Green on the late James Herbert)

(in reply to LadyConstanze)

Page: << < prev 18 19 20 [21] 22 next > >>

All Forums >> [Casual Banter] >> Off the Grid >> RE: roiting in croydon and penge

Page: << < prev 18 19 20 [21] 22 next > >>

Jump to:

New Messages	No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages	Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages	Locked w/o New Messages

Post New Thread

Reply to Message

Post New Poll

Submit Vote

Delete My Own Post

Delete My Own Thread

Rate Posts

Collarchat.com © 2024

Terms of Service

4.406