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RE: I renounce Christianity - 10/1/2011 9:53:50 PM

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quote:

Do you believe that Jesus existed and was the son of God?

I have no idea if he existed or not, I have no real reason to doubt it, but there is, to the best of my knowledge, no hard historical evidence to support it,

EPD: To be honest, at this point I am inclined to believe that everything in the New Testament is a fabrication.

Was he the son of God? No, I do not believe that he was.

that you believe in God, (Yes, so far I still do) that Jesus was the son of God (Absolutely not) and died on the cross for all of our sins. (Absolutely not, that bit never made any sense to me because according to Trinitarian theology he couldn't die, so there was no sacrifice)

Here are three questions for you.
Do you believe God is omnipotent?
Do you believe God is omniscient?
Do you believe God is onmibenevolent?

< Message edited by SuzeCheri -- 10/1/2011 9:56:37 PM >

(in reply to LafayetteLady)

RE: I renounce Christianity - 10/1/2011 10:02:56 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SuzeCheri

quote:

If you never knew what sadness felt like, you also wouldn't know what happiness felt like.
That makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. It just is illogical, irrational, and nonsensical.

None of the rest of what you posted in any way makes death a requirement for life. None of it shows that death is required nor that it in any way enhances life. Sorry, but it is all irrelevant. If you want to discuss the possible ramifications of immortality, then I suggest you follow FirmhandKY's advice and start a thread on the topic. I won't be discussing it further on this thread.

I never said that death was a requirment for life. Although scientifically, if you don't have life, you can't have death, once can't exist without the other.

You say that the bold part is nonsensical, but you give no really explanation of how you believe that is so. Perhaps if you did instead of just saying "nonsense, nonsense" there could be a discussion that would make you understand what I am saying.

I have not been the least bit disrespectful to you, try to have the same courtesy and not lower yourself to the habits of others. This thread has had the remarkable anomoly of it, for the most part, not turning into a thread where the non-believers are bashing the believers and vice versa, with even the usual suspects not devolving into temper tantrum children. It is beneath you to lower yourself to such a level.

(in reply to SuzeCheri)

RE: I renounce Christianity - 10/1/2011 10:04:24 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

The existence of evil is incompatible with the Christian version of an omnipotent God of pure goodness who created the world and everything in it.

To me it's a fairly simple claim to test

It's only a fairly simple claim to test if you stack the deck to suit your own definition of "good" so you can pull exactly the rabbit you want out of the hat. The (hidden) definition of good in this deck is "perfect."

Sadly for your argument, I made no attempt to define either 'good' or 'evil'. My argument doesn't rely on a particular definition of either good or evil is adopted. In fact, for the purposes of my argument, it isn't even necessary to define either 'good' or 'evil'.

In my view, my argument relies on 'good' and 'evil' being mutually exclusionary values, such as they are in common everyday English usage. If you do feel the need to define 'good' and 'evil', as long as whatever definition of 'good' adopted excludes its 'evil' counterpart, my argument holds.

All of which makes the rest of your critique irrelevant.

< Message edited by tweakabelle -- 10/1/2011 10:07:31 PM >

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(in reply to Kirata)

RE: I renounce Christianity - 10/1/2011 10:05:34 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SuzeCheri

That's too bad. Not that you believe that, I think that is a wonderful way to see things, but it's a pity it wasn't the official view of some church or other.

Well, it kind of is the "official" view of "some" church. That happens to be my last name, lol.

Yep, it was time for some light heartedness, but it is the (pardon the pun) God's honest truth that my last name is Church.

(in reply to SuzeCheri)

RE: I renounce Christianity - 10/1/2011 10:09:20 PM

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(in reply to LafayetteLady)

RE: I renounce Christianity - 10/1/2011 10:13:23 PM

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The problem is that they want a patent short cut answer to age old philosophy, theology, ehtics, metaphysics, all rolled up into a one liner to answer a malframed question equivalent to "why does there have to be night".

It does not work that way.

_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to LafayetteLady)

RE: I renounce Christianity - 10/1/2011 10:23:34 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LillyBoPeep

you're basing your conclusions off of (what seems to me) an idea that what we're doing exactly now is preferred and "right," and maybe it's not.

"Preferred" and "right?" Not exactly. Yes, it has always been the way, and I am the furthest from having more than a (very) bare working knowledge of science, but the only thing I'm working on is "immortality." No mention of when it would have begun. Also that the "need" for reproduction would be not really necessary. So like I said, would it have stopped with Adam and Eve? Or with their children? Or would it become something that happens today, in what you are right to assume is a world where the population is increasing exponentially at times. All those things develop different answers.

Also what about the whole aging process? As I said, at some point, babies and reproduction would have to happen, at least for a while. Would the aging process just stop at some point? Or would people just get older and older. One of the people in the house I live in is 82 1/2 (she's the one insisting on the 1/2, lol) and her sister was 88 when she died two weeks ago. Believe me they weren't Betty White old, they were/are more the falling apart old. So what about the aging process, how would that work?

Most of the changes that have occurred in the world was when some young "upstart" (not meant in an insulting way, the Beatles and Elvis were considered "upstarts" as well) had an idea for change. The Civil Rights act happened because people like Dr. King felt it was wrong. In the days of ancient Egypt, no one thought there was anything really wrong with how things were going, so with population growth non existent, and the people's intelligence kind of finite, how would change occur?

All I'm doing is asking the questions that just naturally occured to me. Not that one way is the only way, the preferred way or the right way. I just don't see how it could realistically work. I'm happy to listen to any answers to those questions. And although believe me, I'm not lacking in imagination in any way, I still just really wouldn't want to be on the earth for thousands of years. Unless of course, I could live thousands of years young, skinny and sexy with the limberness I had in my early twenties.

(in reply to LillyBoPeep)

RE: I renounce Christianity - 10/1/2011 10:23:56 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SuzeCheri

So since you want to get into good and evil what about all the living biological creatures etc that you ingest every day.

You murder them.

and you continue to murder them today tomorrow and in the future.

Most people on the planet would agree that murder is evil.

They did not have a choice in the matter, and you wasted them, therefore you are a murderer and must be evil.

Now what if you were somethings happy meal?

Seems you have a problem.

Or do all those creatures etc welcome death as "good" so you can live?

Now what?

< Message edited by Real0ne -- 10/1/2011 10:29:27 PM >

_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to SuzeCheri)

RE: I renounce Christianity - 10/1/2011 10:33:13 PM

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I'm not being disrespectful, nor am I lowering myself either. It's just the truth. The idea just makes no sense whatsoever (which is what nonsense/nonsensical means, isn't it?). You may as well say I wouldn't recognize that I was downstairs until I had been upstairs.

(in reply to LafayetteLady)

RE: I renounce Christianity - 10/1/2011 10:35:25 PM

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quote:

The problem is that they want a patent short cut answer to age old philosophy, theology, ehtics, metaphysics, all rolled up into a one liner to answer a malframed question equivalent to "why does there have to be night".

It does not work that way.

No, the problem is you have no idea what this thread is about.

(in reply to Real0ne)

RE: I renounce Christianity - 10/1/2011 10:36:47 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SuzeCheri

quote:

The problem is that they want a patent short cut answer to age old philosophy, theology, ehtics, metaphysics, all rolled up into a one liner to answer a malframed question equivalent to "why does there have to be night".

It does not work that way.
No, the problem is you have no idea what this thread is about.

On the contrary I took it to the core elements.

Nice dodge. lol

_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to SuzeCheri)

RE: I renounce Christianity - 10/1/2011 10:37:46 PM

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quote:

Now what?

I say thanks, because in a strange way, you have helped prove my original assertion.

(in reply to Real0ne)

RE: I renounce Christianity - 10/1/2011 10:42:01 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SuzeCheri

quote:

Now what?
I say thanks, because in a strange way, you have helped prove my original assertion.

On th eocntrary you have proven mine by failing to respond to your murdering creatures to survive and instead of them you are the happy meal.

you are the one that took this to good and evil with reference to God.

Failing to reasonably argue and answer the counter point put to you is failing to have a valid position.

Not that I am out to win anything, just point out defects in the construction of your premise.

< Message edited by Real0ne -- 10/1/2011 10:43:49 PM >

_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to SuzeCheri)

RE: I renounce Christianity - 10/1/2011 10:45:42 PM

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I believe in God, life after death, and reincarnation. I think experiencing life on earth, both good and bad, leads to spiritual advancement. I think we choose to come here and plan our lives before incarnating. I don't believe in satan or hellfire and damnation and think that idea was invented to scare people. I see God as kind, loving, and forgiving and therefore incapable of condemning anyone to eternal pain and suffering. I consider myself an Agnostic Christian.

_____________________________

Only in the United States is the health of the people secondary to making money. If this is what "capitalism" is about, I'll take socialism any day of the week.

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(in reply to SuzeCheri)

RE: I renounce Christianity - 10/1/2011 10:47:50 PM

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like everything else its all a matter of definition, one of my recent fav topics :)

_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to defiantbadgirl)

RE: I renounce Christianity - 10/1/2011 10:48:04 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SuzeCheri

Here are three questions for you.
Do you believe God is omnipotent?
Do you believe God is omniscient?
Do you believe God is onmibenevolent?

Definition of OMNIPOTENT
1 almighty 1
2having virtually unlimited authority or influence <an omnipotent ruler>

Yes, I believe God is almighty and that He has virtually unlimited authority and/or influence. That does not, however, mean I believe that He excercises that authority or influence all the time.

Definition of OMNISCIENT
1: having infinite awareness, understanding, and insight
2: possessed of universal or complete knowledge

Yep, infinite awareness, understanding and insight, along with possessed of universal and complete knowledge. That talks nothing about changing the future though, does it?

Definition of BENEVOLENT
1 a: marked by or disposed to doing good <a benevolent donor> b: organized for the purpose of doing good <a benevolent society>
2: marked by or suggestive of goodwill <benevolent smiles>

Yes, God is marked by doing good and having goodwill. But that doesn't say that God is actively doing good all the time, i.e. reaching in to change things.

Those are the definitions as per Merriam Webster. People hear/use those words to mean because God has infinite awareness, knowledge and even power that he is actively using those traits all the time, simply that He possesses those traits.

I know that wasn't the answer you likely were hoping for, and it is merely my belief.

Jews don't believe that Jesus was the son of God either (to the best of my memory). The Bible tells us (and I don't really like to quote the Bible) that Jesus was the son of God, but made flesh, not a higher being like God who can not be killed. While considered by Christians to be the son of God, he was also known as a flesh and blood man, and therefore fully capable of death.

(in reply to SuzeCheri)

RE: I renounce Christianity - 10/1/2011 10:48:05 PM

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Told you you didn't know what the thread is about.

(in reply to Real0ne)

RE: I renounce Christianity - 10/1/2011 10:49:19 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SuzeCheri

Told you you didn't know what the thread is about.

another dodge, have fun

_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to SuzeCheri)

RE: I renounce Christianity - 10/1/2011 10:51:55 PM

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How do you reconcile an omnibenevolent (which means all-loving) God with the existence of suffering, sorrow, emotional pain, and the existence of evil?

(in reply to LafayetteLady)

RE: I renounce Christianity - 10/1/2011 10:53:11 PM

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OK, what's the thread about?

(in reply to Real0ne)

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