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RE: I renounce Christianity - 9/30/2011 1:01:26 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SuzeCheri

Now, to move on to your questions and points Flightdirecto.

It is not Catholic dogma that I have a problem with, it is the concept of an omnipotent God who is just, loving, and caring. That concept is not compatible with the world I see around me. I see no evidence whatsoever of such a deity.

You tell me that my being damned as a lesbian (which I mentioned was a secondary issue, one which had not led me to question my Christianity prior to Valerie's murder) is only the interpretation of people who "sanctimoniously assume they know better than anyone else what God thinks", and then you proceed to give me your interpretation, presumably because you sanctimoniously assume you know better than anyone else what God thinks. However, I don't care what that God thinks, I don't believe in that God.

The same goes for whatever Jesus said, he was a believer in the God I have rejected, so his words are meaningless to me other than as some moral guidelines. Thanks for your interest and concern, but refering me to the Bible is a wasted effort, I have already rejected the concept of the God of Abraham as presented in the three related religious traditions dedicated to him.

yeh they can teach ya a lot of shit but they cant teach you wisdom.

They can walk you to the gate and say there it is on the other side.

See it? um... where?

The problem you run into is people often pick and choose which parts of a religion they accept and or follow without the wisdom and background to do so in their own best interest.

In fact I think most kids revolt against religion and parents in the growing up stages.

The problem you have to deal with is that I am sure as a catholic they also taught you that your free will trumps God in your actions and thoughts.

So how then is it God fault when you have control of your own helm?

Do you feel God is supposed to be "control" you and everything around you?

You did learn about "free will" did you not? Could it be that you are missing key links to the understanding of what God is?

No one can teach wisdom.

_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to SuzeCheri)

RE: I renounce Christianity - 9/30/2011 1:15:54 AM

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quote:

Denise Brown: "After Nicole was murdered. I was so angry with God. I thought, how could you do this? How could you let this happen?"

She says her mother suggested that she see a minister for spiritual counseling.

Denise Brown: "And he told me one sentence. He says, 'Denise,'he said, 'It's not God's doing. It's the evil of man.' And as soon as he said that, a load just lifted off my shoulders. And I said, oh my God, you're right."

_____________________________

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(in reply to SuzeCheri)

RE: I renounce Christianity - 9/30/2011 1:19:35 AM

SpanishMatMaster

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quote:

So how then is it God fault when you have control of your own helm?

I would like to hear the degree of control of:
- A citizen of Indonesia during a tsunami, who is going to get killed by the monster wave. Which is his actions provoked the tsunami and why exactly it is his/her fault?
- A child killed with the machete while he begs God to help him, in a catholic church during the Ruanda massacre. How exactly was it the child's fault? Don't tell me about the assassin's fault, I know that already, but a loving and powerful God would have helped hiding the child (which does not mess up with the freedom of the assassin). And an ALMIGHTY God can even directly mess up with the assassins freedom and respect it. Contradiction? Of course. If God has to follow logic, He is not almighty.

Please explain me how these two persons (the citizen, the child) have "control on their own helm" (I quote you here, not the Bible) , please.

Thank you.

< Message edited by SpanishMatMaster -- 9/30/2011 1:21:02 AM >

(in reply to Real0ne)

RE: I renounce Christianity - 9/30/2011 1:27:07 AM

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As I said to Tazzygirl when she mentioned free will, the concept of my free will trumping God is not compatible with the concept of an omniscient and omnipotent God who is just and loving. How can such a god be considered just and caring when he allows me to suffer due to the actions of another when he knew from the beginning of time that it was going to happen and he had the power to prevent it. How could he allow Valerie to be born, when he knew she would be murdered? How could he allow Hitler, Stalin, and Pol Pot to be born when he knew before he created the universe exactly what horrible, monstrous things they would do, how can he be considered either just or caring when he allowed these monsters to be born knowing full well that they would cause unimaginable suffering to millions and millions of innocent people, people who believed fervently in him and devoutly followed his teachings?

So free will doesn't absolve God of responsibility because he knew all along what those people would chose to do, yet he did nothing to prevent it. It is an excuse, and a flimsy one at that, to explain away the logical inconsistencies in the theology.

(in reply to Real0ne)

RE: I renounce Christianity - 9/30/2011 1:27:22 AM

SpanishMatMaster

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To everybody:

According to my knowledge, the theodicea (the "question of the Evil" in theology) has four, and only four, possible answers:
- God is not almighty. He may be "very mighty" but when the Bible says He is almighty, the Bible errs. This resolves the problem for many cases: he could just not prevent the evil from happening.
- God is not Good. He has no interest on preventing evil. This also resolves the question. Makes God less appealing, though.
- God cannot be logically analyzed. Of course, this is a statement without any possible logical proof (as such proof would require to analyze God, contradicting itself). Still, it is the favorite of serious theologists. For the simple folk, still, who want some kind of well-sounding justification of the existence of evil, it is usually far from satisfactory.
- God simply does not exist.

As far as I know, any other answer is a form of one of those, or it does not really resolve the problem. The classic attempt to use the "respect for the freedom" of the humans resolves nothing because an almighty being can respect the freedom AND prevent evil. If he cannot, he is not almighty (first answer).

Best regards.

(in reply to SpanishMatMaster)

RE: I renounce Christianity - 9/30/2011 1:28:23 AM

SpanishMatMaster

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quote:

So free will doesn't absolve God of responsibility because he knew all along what those people would chose to do, yet he did nothing to prevent it. It is an excuse, and a flimsy one at that, to explain away the logical inconsistencies in the theology.

Exactly.

(in reply to SuzeCheri)

RE: I renounce Christianity - 9/30/2011 1:29:51 AM

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Interesting, all this. Yet another account of the 'trauma' of being raised a Catholic.

Even with deaths of some who were close to me at an early age, at a later age, etc., the nearest thing to 'trauma' I have experienced in life was transitioning from a Catholic school to a public school (not in the British sense, where 'public school' actually means private school). The teachers had little control over the situation in the latter case, so then my introduction to gangsterism at age 11. It came to my attention very quickly that these kids had no use whatsoever for any concept of doing the right thing or any consciousness of sin at all. After visiting a few of them at their homes, and overcoming initial shock at how the parents were, I came to see where this arose. That was in elementary school and Jr. high school (now called "middle school"). Things got noticeably better in HS.

I certainly had difficulties with some of the things that were proposed to me in the younger years, but I cannot single out the Catholic faith as being any worse in that regard than the innumerable other incomprehensible things as spouted by many adults, of whatever 'faith' or otherwise lack of.

I made the transition quite easily, if somewhat slowly, to an understanding of spirit as basis to this and any number of other universes, no particular 'God' needed. No trauma involved at all. It is not intended that we "know," so I learned to quit asking.

< Message edited by Edwynn -- 9/30/2011 1:33:33 AM >

(in reply to SuzeCheri)

RE: I renounce Christianity - 9/30/2011 1:33:02 AM

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Denise Brown was satisfied with that empty and facile answer because she did not ask the obvious next question, which I did. A question to which nobody has provided an answer that stands up to scrutiny.

Explain to me how a god that allows men to be evil can be considered loving and just in the face of his inaction when he knew before those men were evil that they would be.

(in reply to DeviantlyD)

RE: I renounce Christianity - 9/30/2011 1:36:45 AM

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quote:

It is not intended that we "know," so I learned to quit asking.

I'm afraid that at this point in my life, I am not content with ignorance as an answer. It is as useless an answer as "just believe".

(in reply to Edwynn)

RE: I renounce Christianity - 9/30/2011 1:38:42 AM

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ever watch star trek? LOL

the prime directive is non interference nonintervention so cultures can grow at a pace respecting their natural evolution.

The greater question is why do you expect God to be the pain cop?

I do not see any major inconsistency with theology, I have no idea what your definition of omnipotent is?

Look at the monsterous pain a doctor causes you and in the end you heal. now what? That too is a logical inconsistency

_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to SuzeCheri)

RE: I renounce Christianity - 9/30/2011 1:43:08 AM

tj444

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Well, I rejected God when I was a little kid (maybe 10 years old). I was told you needed to believe in God to go to Heaven, being a good person wasnt enough. I didnt think that was right or even made any sense to me. So at that point, I simply didnt care if God existed or not. When I was a kid, I also heard stories about WWII and all the horror of that from someone that lived thru it.. Where was God when that was happening?

For me it was an easy and very quick decision, it was black and white to me, cuz the mandatory requirement to believe went against my own deep personal beliefs, and to be honest, i was rather outraged that God put his ego ahead of goodness.

I hope you come to a sense of closure to your questions.

_____________________________

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(in reply to SuzeCheri)

RE: I renounce Christianity - 9/30/2011 1:44:38 AM

SpanishMatMaster

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quote:

I do not see any major inconsistency with theology, I have no idea what your definition of omnipotent is?

Omnipotence: Can do anything. At all.
Nor the Star Federation nor the doctor are omnipotent.
God is said to be. In reality He is impotent, but that's another subject matter.

(in reply to Real0ne)

RE: I renounce Christianity - 9/30/2011 1:44:43 AM

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Exactly sir, and thank you for stating it so very clearly. The first two responses are the crux of the problem: Christianity teaches that God is both almighty AND good, which he cannot possibly be, since evil exists. The third answer is again a cop out, it is saying nothing more than "have faith, just trust me".

I am not yet at the point of accepting the 4th, but it is obvious to me that the Christian god is not what god is..

(in reply to SpanishMatMaster)

RE: I renounce Christianity - 9/30/2011 1:50:08 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SuzeCheri

Exactly sir, and thank you for stating it so very clearly. The first two responses are the crux of the problem: Christianity teaches that God is both almighty AND good, which he cannot possibly be, since evil exists. The third answer is again a cop out, it is saying nothing more than "have faith, just trust me".

I am not yet at the point of accepting the 4th, but it is obvious to me that the Christian god is not what god is..

well you have faith that the answers will come and you will see the light. Is that not what you want?

Did it occur to you that there is more than you see today to be seen in the future? Do you know now what you will when you are 80? Of course not.

What does almighty have to do with God intervening to be a pain cop?

_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to SuzeCheri)

RE: I renounce Christianity - 9/30/2011 1:50:48 AM

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Omnipotent means all powerful, nothing is beyond his power, nothing.

And the doctor analogy? Tell me what was it Hitler healed, or Stalin, or Vlad Tepes, or any one of a thousand other murderous tyrants?

And sticking with the medical theme, why is there diseases, why does Ebola exist, or cancer, or AIDS? Why, if God loves us, does he torture us with these diseases?

(in reply to Real0ne)

RE: I renounce Christianity - 9/30/2011 1:53:48 AM

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quote:

I hope you come to a sense of closure to your questions.

I pretty much have TJ, this thread was created because it seemed people wanted to debate my conclusions, and I didn't want to mess up LadyP's thread any further.

(in reply to tj444)

RE: I renounce Christianity - 9/30/2011 1:54:19 AM

SpanishMatMaster

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quote:

Cheri: Christianity teaches that God is both almighty AND good, which he cannot possibly be

To make things worse, He cannot even be just and loving, as you told in another posting. A just being gives the others exactly what they deserve... nor less, but also, not more. A loving one gives more, gives undeserved gifts, and is therefore automatically unjust.

I do respect all four answers, though...

* The first speaks about a being which is, well, not sooo powerful, but still loving. He tried His best, the current universe came out, he could not do better, and for everybody who suffered too much in this Earth, there will be a Heaven to enjoy for all eternity so so all will be all right. It is a very "humanised" God. If anybody wishes to learn about this kind of theology, I recommend the writings of the converted jew Etty Hillersum. She converted to Catholicism as she was in a nazi concentration camp. She died there. It is moving and interesting, an spirituality far away from the God who "looks from above". She cares about her relation to God like a precious and fragile treasure.

* The second answer was used by the dervish, for example: God would not good or evil, because that would limit God - any definition of God would limit him and be inadequate. It is more like the aristotelic "immobile motor", but not "good" in the sense we use this word.

* The third can also be more as a cheap excuse. Just think about the complexity of the universe. Think about a being able to decide the value of pi (think about the consequences). I makes some kind of sense that such being would be completely outside our ability of comprehension.

I am Atheist, and a proud one I would say. But all other three answers can be used in a childish way, or can be used as firm and at least reasonable positions.

Which does not work is avoiding them all. Then you have simply not thought enough about it (or you use words in a non-standard sense).

< Message edited by SpanishMatMaster -- 9/30/2011 1:59:52 AM >

(in reply to SuzeCheri)

RE: I renounce Christianity - 9/30/2011 1:58:28 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SuzeCheri

quote:

It is not intended that we "know," so I learned to quit asking.
I'm afraid that at this point in my life, I am not content with ignorance as an answer. It is as useless an answer as "just believe".

The short, simple answer is, this world, this universe and everything we think, know, believe...essentially anything of which we are aware is not always going to proceed the way you or anyone else wants it to or the way you or anyone else might expect it should.

Children will often ask "why?" and there are some things parents cannot explain to them because a child's comprehension is not developed to the level required to understand adult concepts. What if that is the reason, that we, as humans, are not provided with answer to questions, such as the ones you've posed? Perhaps we simply don't have the comprehension needed to be capable of understanding.

No one here is going to be able to give you answers that will fully sate you.

_____________________________

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(in reply to SuzeCheri)

RE: I renounce Christianity - 9/30/2011 1:59:23 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SuzeCheri

Omnipotent means all powerful, nothing is beyond his power, nothing.

And the doctor analogy? Tell me what was it Hitler healed, or Stalin, or Vlad Tepes, or any one of a thousand other murderous tyrants?

And sticking with the medical theme, why is there diseases, why does Ebola exist, or cancer, or AIDS? Why, if God loves us, does he torture us with these diseases?

there you go again you want God to be the pain cop.

here see what you can glean from this:

(Latin omnipotentia, from omnia and potens, able to do all things). Omnipotence is the power of God to effect whatever is not intrinsically impossible. These last words of the definition do not imply any imperfection, since a power that extends to every possibility must be perfect. The universality of the object of the Divine power is not merely relative but absolute, so that the true nature of omnipotence is not clearly expressed by saying that God can do all things that are possible to Him; it requires the further statement that all things are possible to God. The intrinsically impossible is the self-contradictory, and its mutually exclusive elements could result only in nothingness. "Hence," says Thomas (Summa I, Q. xxv, a. 3), "it is more exact to say that the intrinsically impossible is incapable of production, than to say that God cannot produce it." To include the contradictory within the range of omnipotence, as does the Calvinist Vorstius, is to acknowledge the absurd as an object of the Divine intellect, and nothingness as an object of the Divine will and power. "God can do all things the accomplishment of which is a manifestation of power," says Hugh of St. Victor, "and He is almighty because He cannot be powerless" (De sacram., I, ii, 22). As intrinsically impossible must be classed:

Any action on the part of God which would be out of harmony with His nature and attributes;
Any action that would simultaneously connote mutually repellent elements, e.g. a square circle, an infinite creature, etc.

Its fairly well written stuff.

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/11251c.htm

_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to SuzeCheri)

RE: I renounce Christianity - 9/30/2011 1:59:50 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SpanishMatMaster

To everybody:

According to my knowledge, the theodicea (the "question of the Evil" in theology) has four, and only four, possible answers:
- God is not almighty. He may be "very mighty" but when the Bible says He is almighty, the Bible errs. This resolves the problem for many cases: he could just not prevent the evil from happening.
- God is not Good. He has no interest on preventing evil. This also resolves the question. Makes God less appealing, though.
- God cannot be logically analyzed. Of course, this is a statement without any possible logical proof (as such proof would require to analyze God, contradicting itself). Still, it is the favorite of serious theologists. For the simple folk, still, who want some kind of well-sounding justification of the existence of evil, it is usually far from satisfactory.
- God simply does not exist.

As far as I know, any other answer is a form of one of those, or it does not really resolve the problem. The classic attempt to use the "respect for the freedom" of the humans resolves nothing because an almighty being can respect the freedom AND prevent evil. If he cannot, he is not almighty (first answer).

Best regards.

What I have always wondered about is how God was directly involved and talking to everyone in the Old Testament.

I mean you couldn't get rid of the guy, then he suddenly disappeared and hasn't been heard from since.

(in reply to SpanishMatMaster)

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