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RE: I renounce Christianity - 9/30/2011 4:03:15 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SuzeCheri

Yes, I can see free will in that way, but God could allow us to believe or not as we choose without allowing us to be evil. he can allow disbelief and disallow murder and war, the one is not incompatible with the other.

While typing the above, I had this thought: is it really free will in belief when he says that he will torture you for all eternity if you don't believe?

You ask some pretty tough questions, kiddo. Somebody smarter than Me had better come along to provide you with some better answers. LOL.

Honestly, that's another gray area for Me. I don't know if that's one of those cases where metaphors were used poorly in translation or the message to theses guys writing this book was hard to convey to men of those times. I mean, if people today have trouble figuring these things out, just imagine how it would have been to people in those times with the knowledge of two thousand years ago.

For Me, it's not really a case of being afraid of the end game. I'm sure that is the case for some people. I know I've got stuff to answer for, but it's not fear of condemnation that's My real motivator.

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The crowned Diva of Destruction. ~ ExT

Beach Ball Sized Lady Nuts. ~ TWD

Happily dating a new submissive. It's official. I've named him engie.

Please do not send me email here. Unless I know you, I will delete the email unread

(in reply to SuzeCheri)

RE: I renounce Christianity - 9/30/2011 4:08:40 AM

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In this respect you are good to go, of course god forgives you, it's his fuckin job. The entire book is rife with examples of his wrath and repentance of.

Doubting thomas. I want to see the fuckin wounds and stick my pudgy little dick graspers in them before I believe it. It was accounted unto him as righeousness (one of the paul books, I believe.)

I am gonna catch it at the very end if the guy actually shows up to take me home. Then I will believe.

Thomas Melby

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Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30

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RE: I renounce Christianity - 9/30/2011 4:21:56 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SuzeCheri

And there you go with irrelevancies, I have answered you over and over, and I have no intention of repeating myself.

Now it is your turn to answer some questions. Why does evil exist?

It might be a little worse than that:

If God is responsible for inventing the universe et al, then the same entity is responsible for the invention of evil. That follows as naturally as night follows day.

Any entity that invents evil is incompatible with the Christian version of God.

So the question could be: Why did God invent evil?

Just a thought .....

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RE: I renounce Christianity - 9/30/2011 4:23:43 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SpanishMatMaster

quote:

ORIGINAL: Edwynn
The concept of spiritual underpinning to the physical world preceded any status religion by several thousand years. Every autocthonous or indigenous people display this behaviour. They also display a sense of societal norms, and concept of 'good' and 'bad.'

"Evil!" as a particular area of concern to which the masses could be easily directed is the product of religion. Some have a difficult time escaping that.

The concept of evil is bound to morality. When we have a concept of what we should do, or not do, we have a morality. To have a morality, we can have a religion... or not. It is not necessary to have a religion, to have a morality. You can ask any marxist or any secular humanist. For example.

Christianity, Judaism, and Mohammedanism all focus on evil and 'battle' thereof as a basic precept. At least as many people, the OP included, interpret it. They then carry the same baggage when supposedly "escaping" it.

"It is not necessary to have a religion, to have a morality"

There is nothing in my post that claimed that religion, or even any sense of 'spirituality' of any sort was necessary for 'morality.' Learn to READ, people!

"Plus, there are religions without morality."

Please enlighten us here. Any completely amoral society of any sort would be of great interest to anthropologists. Somewhat like self-proclaimed 'anarchists' proposing that such a thing has ever existed or ever could exist for more than two weeks.

Some poor girl had a bad teacher or bad teachers. Somehow, they all happened to be Catholic.

I had a broader experience, especially from the non-Catholic-bad-teacher standpoint, and I suspect that others did too.

quote:

ORIGINAL: SpanishMatMaster

I hope this settles this point.

That is too funny for words. The OP was instigated out of necessity for drama. Don't expect this to go away anytime soon.

< Message edited by Edwynn -- 9/30/2011 4:37:31 AM >

(in reply to SpanishMatMaster)

RE: I renounce Christianity - 9/30/2011 4:36:40 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Edwynn

Please enlighten us here. Any completely amoral society of any sort would be of great interest to anthropologists.

Yeah, I know, huh? I am completely amoral, and the society of my house the same, and I have sociologists coming over to my house constantly, posing as Jehovahs Witnesses, trying to get some data on me.

_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30

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RE: I renounce Christianity - 9/30/2011 4:41:17 AM

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quote:

Some poor girl had a bad teacher or bad teachers.

OK, then teach me. Why does evil exist in this world?

(in reply to Edwynn)

RE: I renounce Christianity - 9/30/2011 4:42:55 AM

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To the OP:

I'll echo several here and say, you've made the only smart choice possible, and the same, I've never regretted my choice, even in the face of death, so yep, foxhole atheist here.
90% of MENSA members are atheists or agnostics . . . I'm seeing a trend. They are also the fastest growing belief system in Canada: >20%.
As you've probably noticed, religion is the opiate of the masses. Don't worry if your life sucks, or your priest tells you to go back to your abusive husband and make more babies for the church army, or your kid was killed, or your gentle grandfather died an agonizing death: what happens here in the real world doesn't matter.
So much blood and torture has been committed over something imaginary, that people from another planet would say slowly,
'Sooo: lemme get this straight. *You're* killing people over something that didn't happen hundreds of years ago, worshipping a guy who committed adultery with an eleven-year-old girl, and you can cut off a doctor's hand because she checks men for prostate cancer . . . *you're* thanking your god every day that you weren't born a woman and you get bonus points only if you help someone of your own religion, and *you're* defending a book that says you can sell your daughters into slavery, kill a nurse for working a weekend shift, and stone your neighbour's wife for wearing wool and cotton. Riiiiiight.'

My favourite doggerel:
'The great god Ra /Whose temples covered acres,
Is filler now/ For crossword puzzle makers'

Humanism is the only possible choice. It's very positive and peaceful, plus you get Sunday mornings off to f**k like bunnies.

Oops, sorry, edited to say this was directed to the OP. Thanks, LadyPact!

< Message edited by Tantriqu -- 9/30/2011 5:38:57 AM >

_____________________________

"Then I did the simplest thing in the world. I leaned down... and kissed him. And the world cracked open." - Agnes de Mille

(in reply to SuzeCheri)

RE: I renounce Christianity - 9/30/2011 4:42:57 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

quote:

ORIGINAL: Edwynn

Please enlighten us here. Any completely amoral society of any sort would be of great interest to anthropologists.

Yeah, I know, huh? I am completely amoral, and the society of my house the same, and I have sociologists coming over to my house constantly, posing as Jehovahs Witnesses, trying to get some data on me.

You tripped me up completely there. I can only admit my loss here.

Insurance salesmen and realtors ...

I have to admit that I actually do have a soft spot in my heart for true anarchists.

< Message edited by Edwynn -- 9/30/2011 4:53:15 AM >

(in reply to mnottertail)

RE: I renounce Christianity - 9/30/2011 4:47:14 AM

SpanishMatMaster

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Edwynn
Christianity, Judaism, and Mohammedanism all focus on evil and 'battle' thereof as a basic precept. At least as many people, the OP included, interpret it. They then carry the same baggage when supposedly "escaping" it.

"It is not necessary to have a religion, to have a morality"

There is nothing in my post that claimed that religion, or even any sense of 'spirituality' of any sort was necessary for 'morality.' Learn to READ, people!

"Plus, there are religions without morality."

Please enlighten us here. Any completely amoral society of any sort would be of great interest to anthropologists. Somewhat like self-proclaimed 'anarchists' proposing that such a thing has ever existed or ever could exist for more than two weeks.

Some poor girl had a bad teacher or bad teachers. Somehow, they all happened to be Catholic.

I had a broader experience, especially from the non-Catholic-bad-teacher standpoint, and I suspect that others did too.

quote:

ORIGINAL: SpanishMatMaster

I hope this settles this point.

That is too funny for words. The OP was instigated out of necessity for drama. Don't expect this to go away anytime soon.

Ok, I am finishing this...
1. If you try to move the discussion away and I do not let you, is not because I cannot read. Is because I prefer not to care about the red herring.
2. I said religion without morality, not society without morality. Learn to read.

Goodbye

(in reply to Edwynn)

RE: I renounce Christianity - 9/30/2011 4:51:59 AM

SpanishMatMaster

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Tantriqu

Humanism is the only possible choice. It's very positive and peaceful, plus you get Sunday mornings off to f**k like bunnies.

And for the ones who want to learn about secular humanism...
* The Humanist manifesto 2000. Reasonably short: http://www.secularhumanism.org/index.php?section=main&page=manifesto
* The Philosophy of Humanism (Corliss Lamont). A good standard, and legally free: http://www.corliss-lamont.org/philos8.htm
* The God Delusion (Richard Dawkins): Of, it is a pamphlet. But a good one! Lern about the New Atheism (c)(r)(tm)(:D)
* The IHEU, our representatives in the UN and the UNESCO: http://www.iheu.org/

Yay!

< Message edited by SpanishMatMaster -- 9/30/2011 4:54:15 AM >

(in reply to Tantriqu)

RE: I renounce Christianity - 9/30/2011 4:55:43 AM

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From: Outside looking in
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Thank you Tantriqu, however, I am not yet certain I am an atheist or a humanist even, I only know I am not a Christian, nor from my limited understanding of their theology am I a Jew or a Muslim. As I said way back near the beginning of the thread, I might turn out to be the world's most devout Hindu, I have yet to do any studying on that particular religion.

Anyway, I have to go now, it has been sort of entertaining, and you all have helped me clarify some things in my mind. I'll be back in a few hours.

Bye.

C.

(in reply to Tantriqu)

RE: I renounce Christianity - 9/30/2011 4:59:53 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SpanishMatMaster

quote:

ORIGINAL: Edwynn
Christianity, Judaism, and Mohammedanism all focus on evil and 'battle' thereof as a basic precept. At least as many people, the OP included, interpret it. They then carry the same baggage when supposedly "escaping" it.

"It is not necessary to have a religion, to have a morality"

There is nothing in my post that claimed that religion, or even any sense of 'spirituality' of any sort was necessary for 'morality.' Learn to READ, people!

"Plus, there are religions without morality."

Please enlighten us here. Any completely amoral society of any sort would be of great interest to anthropologists. Somewhat like self-proclaimed 'anarchists' proposing that such a thing has ever existed or ever could exist for more than two weeks.

Some poor girl had a bad teacher or bad teachers. Somehow, they all happened to be Catholic.

I had a broader experience, especially from the non-Catholic-bad-teacher standpoint, and I suspect that others did too.

quote:

ORIGINAL: SpanishMatMaster

I hope this settles this point.

That is too funny for words. The OP was instigated out of necessity for drama. Don't expect this to go away anytime soon.

Ok, I am finishing this...
1. If you try to move the discussion away and I do not let you, is not because I cannot read. Is because I prefer not to care about the red herring.
2. I said religion without morality, not society without morality. Learn to read.

Goodbye

Fine then. Please explicate for the audience here what aspect of secular humanism is devoid of any sense of morality. You moved the discussion to your own agenda, while calling anything to be on-topic as a "red herring."

Good luck with that.

(in reply to SpanishMatMaster)

RE: I renounce Christianity - 9/30/2011 5:01:41 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Tantriqu

90% of MENSA members are atheists or agnostics . . . I'm seeing a trend.

You're either hallucinating or listening to Richard Dawkins (which isn't much different).

The People of Mensa

Scroll down for demographics...

49% Christian, 3% Unitarian, 9% Jewish, 7% agnostic, 3.6% atheist, 9% no religion

(~80% responding)

K.

< Message edited by Kirata -- 9/30/2011 5:38:13 AM >

(in reply to Tantriqu)

RE: I renounce Christianity - 9/30/2011 5:02:43 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Tantriqu

Humanism is the only possible choice. It's very positive and peaceful, plus you get Sunday mornings off to f**k like bunnies.

That might be something that is more suited to the OP.

Pssst. You do understand that some of those other things you mentioned aren't part of the indoctrination of believing in something differently than you do. I give you My absolute word that I've never done any of those things you mentioned. Well, except that part of what I've done on some Sunday mornings.

_____________________________

The crowned Diva of Destruction. ~ ExT

Beach Ball Sized Lady Nuts. ~ TWD

Happily dating a new submissive. It's official. I've named him engie.

Please do not send me email here. Unless I know you, I will delete the email unread

(in reply to Tantriqu)

RE: I renounce Christianity - 9/30/2011 5:05:26 AM

SpanishMatMaster

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Edwynn
Please explicate for the audience here what aspect of secular humanism is devoid of any sense of morality. You moved the discussion to your own agenda,

Serious problems of understanding, i see. Maybe it is me, English is not my mother tongue.
1. I did not say the first.
2. And I am not moving any discussion anywhere. I am finishing my discussion with you.
Last attempt to explain you this. Sorry if I cannot explain it better.

< Message edited by SpanishMatMaster -- 9/30/2011 5:07:42 AM >

(in reply to Edwynn)

RE: I renounce Christianity - 9/30/2011 5:08:14 AM

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Cheri,

My sympathies for your loss, and the emotional pain that you are experiencing.

However, I congratulate you on deciding to think for yourself, and having the strength to question, and the desire to know and learn.

Where your emotional, intellectual and spiritual journey will take you, I do not now, but can only hope.

I do believe that there is a God, and in the Christian message, although perhaps my exact beliefs would raise a few eyebrows (at least) in some Christians.

I'm not going to attempt to answer you questions, nor convince you directly in the truth of anything. I will make the following observations:

1. The Christian faith (IMO) is about a personal relationship and understanding of the deity and the message. It's not about a blind obedience, unthinking, uncritical acceptance of what any one person says, or says you should believe.

2. Anything touched by the hand of man is - by definition - imperfect.

3. "Blind faith" as is often discussed and encouraged is a short-cut - and not really a very good short-cut - that has some slight validity, but generally leads to a shallow understanding and belief.

Perhaps this was more appropriate in the past, when the "tools of knowing" were less well understood, and life shorter and more brutal. (Not that life can't be brutal today), but it is less appropriate today, particularly in a Westernized nation.

4. We ask the questions we ask, but that doesn't always mean the questions can be answered to our satisfaction. Keep in mind that often our very questions form the basis for the answers we may receive. This doesn't mean that the questions are wrong. Nor does it mean that the questions are correct.

As well, how we understand the questions and how the answers are interpreted are filtered through our own personal experiences and understanding. Both the questions and the answers can change (and I submit should change) their form and meanings as we experience and as we consider them over our lifetimes.

5. Sometimes, there simply isn't a "good" answer to a question.

My recommendations to you is to never fall into the fallacy of believing that your beliefs can not or should not change. Always continue to question any conclusion you reach (in other words, "knowing" is always tentative and conditional) and always be suspicious of anyone who claims utter certainty.

This is a difficult road and a troublesome path, and there is no guarantee that you'll arrive at the same place I have, or the same place anyone else has. And that is ok. But I do believe that this path is the one that we are really meant to take in order to become fully human.

Best of luck, and my best wishes.

Firm

edited: for clarity and to renumber my points. I'm not perfect.

< Message edited by FirmhandKY -- 9/30/2011 5:58:33 AM >

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RE: I renounce Christianity - 9/30/2011 5:16:31 AM

SpanishMatMaster

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quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY
Firm

Consider me firming below, providing you allow me. Nice posting.
Would only like to ask you what do you mean in (2) as "imperfect". For me, perfection needs a parameter - for what. What is perfect for one thing is imperfect for another. But that would be completely off-topic and would need another thread.

< Message edited by SpanishMatMaster -- 9/30/2011 5:17:56 AM >

(in reply to FirmhandKY)

RE: I renounce Christianity - 9/30/2011 5:35:38 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SpanishMatMaster

quote:

ORIGINAL: Edwynn
Please explicate for the audience here what aspect of secular humanism is devoid of any sense of morality. You moved the discussion to your own agenda,

Serious problems of understanding, i see. Maybe it is me, English is not my mother tongue.
1. I did not say the first.
2. And I am not moving any discussion anywhere. I am finishing my discussion with you.
Last attempt to explain you this. Sorry if I cannot explain it better.

Look here, good fellow;

I very much appreciate your efforts in learning another language. I am trying to do the same with German (alemán, or deutschesprache), but I am likely far behind you in that effort. I suppose that I might be arguing with you from the standpoint of hearing what I hear from local 'secular humanists,' but does that tell so-called Americans everything they need to know, either side of it?

Maybe, maybe not.

Your words are as good as any here. If might disagree then I just disagree, not to be taken as any slight on your language skills in any regard.

(in reply to SpanishMatMaster)

RE: I renounce Christianity - 9/30/2011 5:38:15 AM

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Hi Cheri

It seems you're starting down a similar path to mine, so perhaps I can point out some guideposts...

I came to the realization that god described in Judaism was a logical contradiction from learning about the Holocaust. I could not envision a God with the power to stop such a tragedy not actually using that power- it made no sense to me.

For years, I described myself as an atheist- I absolutely KNEW that god didn't exist. Couldn't for all the horrible things that went on the world.

These days, I know describe myself as an agnostic, although I suspect not in the way that most people use the term.

Being a scientist, I had to think about god from this perspective. Once you do, a lot of the issues become clearer.

1) If god can affect our lives, he/she is detectable. god must have mass and energy, otherwise god can have no momentum, and no way to affect anything physical.
2) If god is beyond detector range, then by the time god knows our thoughts, its probably too late to do much about it.
3) The universe is not a billiard ball game, i.e. predetermined. Quantum mechanics teaches us that probability of events at an atomic/molecular level is the fundamental underpinning of how the world works- hence, the possible origin of free will. Let me give you an example that you may be able to wrap your head around a bit, because like Heisenberg said, (paraphrase) "Anyone who thinks that they understand quantum mechanics the first time they learn about it, has not comprehended what has just been presented." Imagine a beaker full of helium atoms that's sealed. Based on the pressure of the gas, the beaker should contain all the atoms. On an individual basis, atoms smash into the walls of the beaker and bounce back in. What quantum mechanics teaches us is that every so often, one of those atoms is going to escape. You don't know which one, you don't know when. But it will happen...
4) Free will leads to good and evil- it's a human perception. If there would be no evil, there would be no good. We have the ability to choose, without free will, good and evil are meaningless concepts.
5) If heaven exists, it must be detectable. We may not be able to detect it with current instruments, but it is theoretically detectable- if it exists.

All of the above argues against the existence of a god as postulated by the old and new testaments. Well, they didn't know quantum mechanics, so why should you expect so much? They can be interesting stories and teach us about humanity.

About the existence of god....since I did mention at the start I was an agnostic these days...

At this point in time, we do not know how the universe was created. Yes, there was a big bang, but what we don't know is if there was some agency behind the big bang. Maybe the universe is an experiment gone wrong- it wasn't supposed to blow up? Or perhaps the agency or creator wanted to create the universe and came up with the physical laws that it follows. But with the big bang comes another question- could the creator have survived? There may be elements of the Christ myth in the creation of the universe, that the creator died in order for the universe to be created. All of these questions are currently unknowable- and will probably remain so for our lifetimes. It may be that the answers can never be known. But can this help you reconcile your issues of a creator who seems oblivious to the existence of evil in the world?

Cheers,

Sam

(in reply to FirmhandKY)

RE: I renounce Christianity - 9/30/2011 5:55:59 AM

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ORIGINAL: Kirata
K.

Yawn. Old google data from one European website, possibly in the Vatican ;-).

from MENSA magazine, 2002:
'Paul Bell reviewed all studies taken of religion and IQ. He concluded:

"Of 43 studies carried out since 1927 on the relationship between religious belief and one's intelligence and/or educational level, all but four found an inverse connection. That is, the higher one's intelligence or education level, the less one is likely to be religious."”

< Message edited by Tantriqu -- 9/30/2011 5:56:38 AM >

_____________________________

"Then I did the simplest thing in the world. I leaned down... and kissed him. And the world cracked open." - Agnes de Mille

(in reply to Kirata)

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