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RE: Want a tomato with your salad? Get a bank loan - 10/12/2011 11:04:17 AM

thompsonx

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quote:

ORIGINAL: xssve

And in economic terms, keeping farm workers out is protectionism,

We are speaking of keeping illegal aliens out...we have many u.s. citizens who are farm workers. The fact that you would prefer slave labor to free labor is the problem.

not free market, it's regulation, but not very sensible regulation if you're driving people out of business

By definition if your business depends on slave labor you do not have a business.

- the farmer has a job too, and probably employes more than just pickers, he has equipment to maintain, and so forth.

Do you want slaves to maintain that also?

i.e., those immigrants are creating jobs.

No the illegal immigrant is taking a job from a u.s. citizen.

There are Three things that result in economic growth, in no particular order: infrastructure, which expands markets and creates opportunities where they previously didn't exist, and

included regulation that protects ethical business from unfair competition,

This is the crux of the question. You seem to think that using slave labor to circumvent paying for non slave labor is ethical ...I do not.

(in reply to xssve)

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RE: Want a tomato with your salad? Get a bank loan - 10/12/2011 11:10:09 AM

thompsonx

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quote:

ORIGINAL: xssve

Uh no, maybe for you it is, but for the real world the quesiton is about whether this is a regulation that increases market efficiency

You are making "market effeciency" into some sort of goal that must be attained at any cost no matter what. If that goal is obtained by making serfs out of the majority of our population what was the value of that goal?

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RE: Want a tomato with your salad? Get a bank loan - 10/12/2011 11:11:56 AM

kalikshama

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quote:

foreign produce is unlikely to catch on, it has such a short shelf life.

Doesn't stop supermarkets from stocking it. Most produce out of season or from other climates is foreign. Ecuador is the world's leading banana exporter. The bananas I ate in Costa Rica were like ambrosia compared to supermarket bananas. Fresh picked asparagus is nothing like supermarket asparagus from Peru. I gave up on supermarket peaches decades ago.

Eat locally/in season!

http://www.loe.org/shows/segments.html?programID=07-P13-00018&segmentID=4

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RE: Want a tomato with your salad? Get a bank loan - 10/12/2011 11:12:57 AM

thompsonx

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quote:

ORIGINAL: xssve

The situation is what it is, that's what I'm saying: argue about it all you want, the laws of supply and demand will apply regardless of how convincing and cunning your rhetoric.

You state that "the law of supply and demand" will apply regardless. Really!!!how does that work? There is a world wide rice shortage. The "law of supply and demand" would indicate that the rice will go to the highest bidder. Is that correct by your understanding of the "law of supply and demand"?

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RE: Want a tomato with your salad? Get a bank loan - 10/12/2011 11:51:15 AM

Iamsemisweet

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Joined: 4/9/2011
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You are missing the point. First, I don't think the whole agricultural system of the US is going to pack up and move to Brazil. Second, "rain water" is rarely enough, alone. For one thing, even in areas of plentiful rain fall, there is such a thing as drought. Too much rain, or rain at the wrong time is also damaging. Farms in this country, particularly in the west, are only viable because of the availability of cheap, federally subsidized irrigation water, where delivery can be controlled.
The real point here is that you evidently believe that if farmers are forced to use something other than illegal immigrant slave labor, then farming operations will pack up and move to, well, somewhere. At first you said Mexico, now you are saying Brazil. I say bull shit. There is far more involved than just labor. Subsidizing the social costs of illegal immigration is just another cost the ag business is trying to foist off on the public. It needs to stop.

quote:

ORIGINAL: xssve

quote:

ORIGINAL: Iamsemisweet

I think there is one thing you aren't taking into account, and that is that agriculture requires more than just cheap labor. It also requires plentiful and cheap water. At least in the western US, this required expensive and government funded infrastructure, such as the dams and irrigation delivery systems. The Imperial Valley would still be a desert if this hadn't happened. This is all heavily subsidized and required an enormous investment that I somehow don't see Mexico being able to pay for.

quote:

ORIGINAL: xssve

But like it or not, this is unregulated capitalism at it's finest, and if you don't let Mexicans in to it here (regulation!), the farms will simply move to Mexico - where the labor is, and it's already largely a feudal economy.

It depends on the economics, they get a lot of rain in Brazil, America isn't the only country that immigrants go to, a lot of countries compete for them - we compete with China for scientists for example, and lately, we've been losing.

_____________________________

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RE: Want a tomato with your salad? Get a bank loan - 10/12/2011 12:45:22 PM

subrob1967

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quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx
You seem to have a special hard on for mexicans,legal or illegal, your "pc" lexicon not withstanding.

And you're wrong, as usual. I have absolutely nothing against legal immigrants, of ANY nationality, it's your own bigotry your projecting onto to me.

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RE: Want a tomato with your salad? Get a bank loan - 10/12/2011 1:22:38 PM

LafayetteLady

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From: Northern New Jersey
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quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

Why do you assume that "they(fellow u.s. citizens)" would be of that criminal mindset?
Would you commit such a fraud?

Do you have any idea of the statistic on people who take off the books employment while collecting unemployment benefits? More than FOURTEEN MILLION dollars in 2010.

Statistically how does 14 milion factor into the u.s. economy?

From a statistical analysis point, you wouldn't be looking at how it factors into the US economy, but rather, how it factors into what was paid in unemployment benefits in total.

The rest of your statement is argumentative and insulting.

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RE: Want a tomato with your salad? Get a bank loan - 10/13/2011 12:25:11 PM

thompsonx

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady

quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

Why do you assume that "they(fellow u.s. citizens)" would be of that criminal mindset?
Would you commit such a fraud?

Do you have any idea of the statistic on people who take off the books employment while collecting unemployment benefits? More than FOURTEEN MILLION dollars in 2010.

Statistically how does 14 milion factor into the u.s. economy?

From a statistical analysis point, you wouldn't be looking at how it factors into the US economy, but rather, how it factors into what was paid in unemployment benefits in total.

Which I notice you have not done.

The rest of your statement is argumentative and insulting.

That you would accuse those you do not know from a cake of soap of criminal behaviour is likewise argumentative and insulting.
You make a blanket accusation of fraud against people you do not know and now you are inslulted...not because I accused you as you did them but because I ask you if you would commit that same fraud.

< Message edited by thompsonx -- 10/13/2011 12:26:18 PM >

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RE: Want a tomato with your salad? Get a bank loan - 10/13/2011 6:33:44 PM

LafayetteLady

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From: Northern New Jersey
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quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

quote:

ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady

From a statistical analysis point, you wouldn't be looking at how it factors into the US economy, but rather, how it factors into what was paid in unemployment benefits in total.

Which I notice you have not done.

Actually, I pulled the first statistic that I came across. Whether or not what I talk about actually exists on the internet, I don't know. I could certainly put them together, but you really aren't worth the kind of time that involves.

My point is that, as most here realize, you are ignorant. I can make statistics say anything I want without changing a single number. It is all in the presentation. Perhaps someday when you have developed your mind a bit more and can understand statistics, we can talk again.

quote:

That you would accuse those you do not know from a cake of soap of criminal behaviour is likewise argumentative and insulting.
You make a blanket accusation of fraud against people you do not know and now you are inslulted...not because I accused you as you did them but because I ask you if you would commit that same fraud.

Actually, I take offense to you asking the personal question. I didn't make a "blanket accusation," but rather a statement based on facts as I know them. You seem to be under the misguided impression that me or anyone else here is under some obligation to hold your hand and walk you through the research.

I have logically pointed out the biggest problem with the issue at hand. You choose to still argue about ridiculous things you obviously have no real world understanding of.

Please crawl back under your rock and come out to play when you have learned something.

< Message edited by LafayetteLady -- 10/13/2011 6:34:33 PM >

(in reply to thompsonx)

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RE: Want a tomato with your salad? Get a bank loan - 10/13/2011 6:54:41 PM

thompsonx

Posts: 23322
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quote:

Please crawl back under your rock and come out to play when you have learned something.

You are entitled to your opinion no mater how ignorant,unsubstantiated or illfounded it may be.
Should you decide to discuss this on an intellectual bassis instead of using faux indignation and personal attacks I will be here. If on the other hand you find yourself intellectually unable to continue I will understand your unwillingness to be embarrassed in public by having your ignorance and presumptious attitude exposed.

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RE: Want a tomato with your salad? Get a bank loan - 10/13/2011 10:51:26 PM

xssve

Posts: 3589
Joined: 10/10/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

quote:

ORIGINAL: xssve

And in economic terms, keeping farm workers out is protectionism,

We are speaking of keeping illegal aliens out...we have many u.s. citizens who are farm workers. The fact that you would prefer slave labor to free labor is the problem.

not free market, it's regulation, but not very sensible regulation if you're driving people out of business

By definition if your business depends on slave labor you do not have a business.

- the farmer has a job too, and probably employes more than just pickers, he has equipment to maintain, and so forth.

Do you want slaves to maintain that also?

i.e., those immigrants are creating jobs.

No the illegal immigrant is taking a job from a u.s. citizen.

There are Three things that result in economic growth, in no particular order: infrastructure, which expands markets and creates opportunities where they previously didn't exist, and

included regulation that protects ethical business from unfair competition,

This is the crux of the question. You seem to think that using slave labor to circumvent paying for non slave labor is ethical ...I do not.

You're a real piece of work, where exactly did I say anything about slave labor?

You fuckers puckering about whether they're legal or not are the ones holding a gun to their heads, they could come or go, work or not as they pleased, for whoever they wanted before all this shit, just like anybody else - now an employer can get away with damn near anything, they're all fucking petrified.

Until you make them legal, which you appear to have no intention of considering, they are slave labor, and I'm not just speaking metaphorically.

Here's a little lesson in economics for you.

(in reply to thompsonx)

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