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RE: Forgive Student Loans? - 10/17/2011 11:17:05 PM   
RexKuntz


Posts: 5
Joined: 11/16/2008
Status: offline 		how about debt forgiveness across the board?

(in reply to kalikshama)
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RE: Forgive Student Loans? - 10/17/2011 11:22:47 PM   
Iamsemisweet


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From: The Great Northwest, USA
Status: offline 		How about adequately funding higher education so people don't have to incur outrageous amounts of debt? Forgiving student loans would basically penalize those who saved to pay cash for their own or their kids' education.
quote:

ORIGINAL: RexKuntz

how about debt forgiveness across the board?


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RE: Forgive Student Loans? - 10/17/2011 11:26:46 PM   
philosophy


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Joined: 2/15/2004
Status: offline 		FR

Who benefits from higher education?

The student, for one obviously, in a myriad ways not least higher earnings when employed.

However, thats not the whole story.

Greater society also benefits when people become better educated, again in a myriad of ways.

So, we have a situation where banks were considered, on both sides of the aisle, to be too big to fail

I'd argue that graduates are too important to let starve.

Firm made an excellent point earlier about school fees. They're too high. Which in and of itself prevents some people from getting the education that their potential deserves.

That's a tragedy for the student concerned, but it's also a loss to the rest of society.


< Message edited by philosophy -- 10/17/2011 11:27:24 PM >

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RE: Forgive Student Loans? - 10/17/2011 11:38:42 PM   
tazzygirl


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kalikshama

quote:

Students aren't allowed to file bankruptcy, but all banks have to do is ask for a bailout.


The banks are paying back the money much more quickly than I anticipated:

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/money_co/2011/02/tarp-bailout-banks-break-even-fifth-third-bancorp.html

Programs that bailed out banks are now estimated to turn a $20-billion profit.



A more direct look at who got what and how much each has, or has not, returned.

http://projects.propublica.org/bailout/list

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RE: Forgive Student Loans? - 10/17/2011 11:57:59 PM   
HeatherMcLeather


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Status: offline 		I'm not sure where the idea of a $20 billion profit comes from, according to Tazzy's link, there is still $302,135,349,220 owing and a further $53,622,807,655 in committed funds yet to be distributed, that makes over 350 billion unrecovered out of a total of 630 some billion, that makes over 50% still outstanding.

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RE: Forgive Student Loans? - 10/18/2011 12:13:17 AM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline 		What was paid out is all that will be paid out.

With the $700 billion authorized by Congress in October 2008 via the Emergency Economic Stabilization Act, the Treasury Department has been doling out the money via an alphabet soup of different programs.

In July of 2010, the financial regulation overhaul reduced the amount authorized for TARP to $475 billion.

Enacted Oct. 3, 2008
$475 billion total available
$469 billion committed


http://projects.propublica.org/bailout/initiatives/2-emergency-economic-stabilization-act

A list of emergency loans to banks having nothing to do with Tarp Money.

http://projects.propublica.org/tables/treasury-facilities-loans
.


The 20 billion is the "Revenue to Government"

Using Wells Fargo as an example, they repaid their tarp money on dec 23, 2009.

25 billion

They also made several dividend paymenst and a warrant payment

05/20/2010 Warrant $849,014,998 CPP Warrant Proceeds
12/23/2009 Refund $25,000,000,000 CPP Repayment
12/23/2009 Dividend $131,944,444 CPP Dividend Payment
11/16/2009 Dividend $312,500,000 CPP Dividends payment
08/17/2009 Dividend $312,500,000 CPP Dividends Paid in Aug. 2009
05/31/2009 Dividend $684,027,778 CPP Dividends Paid Through 5/31/2009
10/28/2008 Purchase $25,000,000,000 CPP Purchase - Preferred Stock w/ Warrants

2.2 Billion.





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Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

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RE: Forgive Student Loans? - 10/18/2011 12:25:49 AM   
HeatherMcLeather


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quote:

What was paid out is all that will be paid out.
Not according to the first web site you linked to.

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RE: Forgive Student Loans? - 10/18/2011 12:34:38 AM   
Epytropos


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quote:

ORIGINAL: HeatherMcLeather

quote:

What was paid out is all that will be paid out.
Not according to the first web site you linked to.

If you read closely it says that there has been a freeze. Theoretically they could unfreeze it and dispense more, but as it stands no more is going out.

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RE: Forgive Student Loans? - 10/18/2011 1:01:16 AM   
Hippiekinkster


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quote:

ORIGINAL: erieangel

Our culture says that without an education you can't live the American dream.  We are big on education so long as it is an expensive one that the tax payers are not paying for (look at what is happening with cuts to public education across the board).  So kids go to college to get that education they are told they need--and in recent years more and more graduates are not able to find jobs even when they major in stuff like health care, computer administration, business.  These kids, and their parents, were sold a bill of goods that isn't worth spit.  So yeah, every college graduate who has been unable to find a job should at the very least have their loans suspended until the economy improves. 

True story:  I had my student loans forgiven after I became disabled and was unable even to finish college.  But now I am stuck between a rock and hard place, now that I'm no longer disabled, I am still unable to complete my degree unless I want over $26,000 worth of loans reinstated.  I can work full time at the job I've got (or maybe a slightly better one I interviewed for today) but still live below the poverty line, or I can take a debt I am not prepared to take on at my age.

I am so sick of you leebrils whining. You dumb bastards just can't seem to understand that you have to be born to white Protestant parents. That is the problem. You fuck up big time when you are in the birth/rebirth cycle. You choose wrong. If you had been righteous and not fucked over that palm-oil salesman 30 cycles ago there in what is now Bangla-desh (remember? He gave you 100 jars of oil on consignment, and you sold them, and then ran off to Persia and opened a Tandoori restaurant, remember that? You loser scum), you would have been born into the Schlusselburg family of Prussia, and be the Duke of Brandenberg now.

But nooooo! You had to go off and run away from a perfectly good Yurt in Outer Mongolia and cross the land bridge to Alaska 11,000 years ago and build Mayan pyramids in Guatemala.

Now look at you. Working in a car wash in Torrance. Idiot. next time, be reborn proto-Celtic, so your ancestors at least have a good shot at being English, or German, or Scots-Irish, and then you can go on to lord it over your "fellow" Americans.

Dolt.


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RE: Forgive Student Loans? - 10/18/2011 5:11:49 AM   
kalikshama


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quote:

ORIGINAL: HeatherMcLeather
I'm not sure where the idea of a $20 billion profit comes from, according to Tazzy's link, there is still $302,135,349,220 owing and a further $53,622,807,655 in committed funds yet to be distributed, that makes over 350 billion unrecovered out of a total of 630 some billion, that makes over 50% still outstanding.

quote:

What was paid out is all that will be paid out.
Not according to the first web site you linked to.


I didn't see a total on the first website, which also included loans to car companies, which are expected to produce a loss.

The $700 b was reduced to $475 b in July 2010, of which it looks like only $410 (my link) - $469 (Tazzy) was given out.

ETA: deleted last paragraph as it did not refer to wasn't TARP disbursements









< Message edited by kalikshama -- 10/18/2011 5:14:25 AM >

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RE: Forgive Student Loans? - 10/18/2011 5:40:28 AM   
servantforuse


Posts: 6363
Joined: 3/8/2006
Status: offline 		Does anyone think that it is ironic that when people need a loan, student or other, they like the banks. When they have to pay back the loan, banks are evil. These students and their families borrowed money and need to grow up and pay it back.

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RE: Forgive Student Loans? - 10/18/2011 6:08:04 AM   
LillyBoPeep


Posts: 6873
Joined: 12/29/2010
Status: offline 		i do think loans should be paid back. i'm not sure i agree with 100% forgiveness. i have quite a few student loans, in spite of grants and scholarships i also got. i had excellent grades, excellent ACT scores, i worked hard and qualified for a lot of stuff, but because university fees are SO insane, it wasn't enough -- i event went to Jr. College to try to get some stuff out of the way before I went somewhere more expensive -- but this idea that it penalizes people who save for their kids -- what about penalizing people who work hard but still don't make enough? should we just officially come out and say "education is for the rich, sorry?" because that's what it sounds like you're saying. and i don't buy that.

it's getting harder and harder to get any meaningful employment without a degree of some kind. so our society makes this bajillion dollar slip of paper almost necessary, and the attitude about failure in this country is that if you failed, you just "didnt try hard enough" or something is wrong with you. people keep trying to save face with family and friends, to avoid feeling like something is wrong with them, even if it means taking out loans.

i don't believe there should be a pass off for personal responsibility -- loans are loans, and the terms have always been the same. but school fees here are absolutely INANE. perhaps if those fees were readjusted to a more reasonable rate, then that could be retroactively applied and that over-payment balance could be forgiven? i dunno...
because starting people off with 60k or even 100k in debt makes no sense for productivity, except, i guess, if you're a banker.


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RE: Forgive Student Loans? - 10/18/2011 6:16:09 AM   
fragilepieces


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quote:

ORIGINAL: GreedyTop

true story:

I decided later in my life tobecome a student and get a degree in video production (a gorwing field). I applied for, and was granted loans.

I managed to get through the fiirst quarter on those loans.

HOWEVER. because of class scheduling, I was not able to find a job (several of teh same course classes had classes back and forth across the day/night, not to mention the other classes that were on different days, etc.. in other words... I did not have a class schedule that any employer could say: oh yeah.. lets put her on THIS schedule)

I had to drop out before I got halfway through the second quarter.

this was not for lack of desire to complete the degree.. it was purely a financial reality.


Now, I have sallie mae snagging any tax returns I may have (I'm ok with that). But FFS.. I am living paycheck to paycheck.. and usually THAT is uncertain..

I would LOVE to pay off what I owe.. but, yanno, things like rent/utilities/groceries/gas for the car/etc kinda take precedence.

I obviously didnt graduate, since I couldnt afford to complete the courses.

PLEASE.. I am not making 6 figures .. and the 5 figures I DO earn leave me well into the poverty level. Student loan forgivness would be a GODSEND for me..
This is the point completely on student loan forgiveness.    Many many students are actually graduating with Master's and Bachelor's degree and there are no jobs for them.   Even flipping burgers is out because they are over qualified.   If they get a job they live pay check to pay check and are unable to afford their loans.    But if they are working and the loans are defaulted they take a portion of your income and refund checks from the government---which really does nothing to help the economy.   

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RE: Forgive Student Loans? - 10/18/2011 6:18:29 AM   
fragilepieces


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quote:

ORIGINAL: HannahLynn

quote:

I think a better solution than outright forgiveness would be for people to carefully consider whether it makes sense financially to go to school.
quote:

it would penalize people who saved money to go to college or send their kids to college. 
translation: you're poor, shut the fuck up and bring me my fries.
you rock Hannah

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RE: Forgive Student Loans? - 10/18/2011 6:24:58 AM   
DarkSteven


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Iamsemisweet

How about adequately funding higher education so people don't have to incur outrageous amounts of debt?


That's asking for trouble.

The problem is that higher education is too damn expensive.  Under the free market, competitors will spring up offering a similar product for less.  The only way that cannot happen is if there is a subsidy.  In other words, "adequately funding higher education" will keep prices artificially high at taxpayer expense.


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RE: Forgive Student Loans? - 10/18/2011 6:33:48 AM   
Kana


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Joined: 10/24/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: fragilepieces

quote:

ORIGINAL: GreedyTop

true story:

I decided later in my life tobecome a student and get a degree in video production (a gorwing field). I applied for, and was granted loans.

I managed to get through the fiirst quarter on those loans.

HOWEVER. because of class scheduling, I was not able to find a job (several of teh same course classes had classes back and forth across the day/night, not to mention the other classes that were on different days, etc.. in other words... I did not have a class schedule that any employer could say: oh yeah.. lets put her on THIS schedule)

I had to drop out before I got halfway through the second quarter.

this was not for lack of desire to complete the degree.. it was purely a financial reality.


Now, I have sallie mae snagging any tax returns I may have (I'm ok with that). But FFS.. I am living paycheck to paycheck.. and usually THAT is uncertain..

I would LOVE to pay off what I owe.. but, yanno, things like rent/utilities/groceries/gas for the car/etc kinda take precedence.

I obviously didnt graduate, since I couldnt afford to complete the courses.

PLEASE.. I am not making 6 figures .. and the 5 figures I DO earn leave me well into the poverty level. Student loan forgivness would be a GODSEND for me..
This is the point completely on student loan forgiveness.    Many many students are actually graduating with Master's and Bachelor's degree and there are no jobs for them.   Even flipping burgers is out because they are over qualified.   If they get a job they live pay check to pay check and are unable to afford their loans.    But if they are working and the loans are defaulted they take a portion of your income and refund checks from the government---which really does nothing to help the economy.   




This is the real crux of the biscuit. The problem from an economic perspective is that, in many ways due to no fault of their own (i.e. The Recession), students are graduating only to be unable to find a job, then are getting buried under student loan debt. And every day the student can't find a job, their loan grows due to interest.
The result is that the folks who will form the backbone of the next generations middle class are going to be crippled before they get going, which will be bad for the rest of the economy, not just now but possibly for decades to come. Any questions about this, do some googling about the compound losses from starting at lesser salaries, with commiserate less savings, less money towards retirement, and less ability to pay for, oh I don't know, their children's higher education costs. And God help em if they default, because you can't bankrupt out of student loans and the default will kill your credit, in turn keeping the poor poorer and trapping them further.

Worsening the situation, far too many universities act only a diploma mills, churning folks in and out, giving misleading stats re post grad success (There is a huge debate in the law school community right now re this) and taking folks who should absolutely not be heading into a certain field and steering them that way anyhow. (I am thinking of a few folks I know with criminal justice degrees that are a joke, because anyone who knows their personalities knows that there is not a chance in hell they could be cops, but the schools took their cash, painted em a rosy picture and then sent em on down the line, never once bothering to dip their toe in reality)

Toss that in with the fact that we have given the banks $15 Trillion (!!!) in bailouts,(and they in turn haven't been exactly user friendly since), and is it any wonder that folks are suggesting they get bailed out too?


edited to add that I worked at a local U for a few years so I have some hands on experience with what I say. I'm not just talking out my ass here.

< Message edited by Kana -- 10/18/2011 6:45:58 AM >

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RE: Forgive Student Loans? - 10/18/2011 6:35:55 AM   
LillyBoPeep


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RE: Forgive Student Loans? - 10/18/2011 6:36:50 AM   
HeatherMcLeather


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quote:

If you read closely it says that there has been a freeze.
No it doesn't, not on the 1st site she linked to at any rate.

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RE: Forgive Student Loans? - 10/18/2011 6:44:30 AM   
HeatherMcLeather


Posts: 2559
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quote:

I didn't see a total on the first website
Right at the very top, just before the actual table begins.






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RE: Forgive Student Loans? - 10/18/2011 6:48:33 AM   
HeatherMcLeather


Posts: 2559
Joined: 5/21/2011
From: The dog house
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quote:

These students and their families borrowed money and need to grow up and pay it back.
While that is true, you have to look at why they borrowed. The decision they were faced with was: poverty or debt.Those are the options offered to people just starting out in life, and these days the debt option doesn't preclude poverty the way it used to. And that is the problem.

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