Changing the person you're with

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perverseangelic -> Changing the person you're with (5/25/2006 6:58:42 AM)
The post on weight got me thinking about the subject of changing one's partner, and rather than co-opt the thread I thought I'd start something new. What are your opinions on changing the person you are with, either physically or mentally? That is, do you think it's a good thing to find someone and mold him/her to your expectations? To find someoen who matches your ideas physically and change his/her mental outlook? To find someone whose brain you like and change his/her body? How about the degree? For example, do you think you would start a relationship with someone who -totally- doesn't match your critera or who has a factor that would otherwise disqualify him/her and plan on changing it (as in the fat thread someone who is overweight when you detest overweight people). What about getting involved with someone who is just slightly different than your criteria (a blonde when you prefer red heads). Do you think it's a good idea to enter a relationship -knowing- you want to change the person?

mistoferin -> RE: Changing the person you're with (5/25/2006 7:03:43 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: perverseangelic Do you think it's a good idea to enter a relationship -knowing- you want to change the person? Nope....I don't think it's ever a good idea. People can and do change but I don't think it's ever a good idea to think that you are going to be the catalyst for that change or that you even have a right to try. If I meet someone and there is something about them that I can not live with then they are not a viable choice in partners. Period.

LuckyAlbatross -> RE: Changing the person you're with (5/25/2006 7:16:50 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: perverseangelic What are your opinions on changing the person you are with, either physically or mentally? That is, do you think it's a good thing to find someone and mold him/her to your expectations? To find someoen who matches your ideas physically and change his/her mental outlook? To find someone whose brain you like and change his/her body? To a certain extent, yes. None of us are as great as we could be, and if a personal intimate relationship can't help you become better in who you are, what can? quote: Do you think it's a good idea to enter a relationship -knowing- you want to change the person? ONLY IF- THe other person knows about it FULLY beforehand The other person accepts it FULLY beforehand, out of a sense of connection and security, NOT insecurity (such as being afraid to lose you if they say no) You know what the hell you're doing. I also don't consider this a dom/sub thing. In fact I think more Ms and Ds relationships would be a lot better if doms got their heads out of their asses and allowed their subs to help make them better.

merrymasochist -> RE: Changing the person you're with (5/25/2006 7:21:49 AM)
I just don't understand the concept of getting into a relationship with the idea that I want to change them or them me. If you can't love someone for who they are and as they are what's the point? To my way of thinking, love is about caring for a person because of themselves, not in spite of themselves. To put forth the idea that one could love a person if they would change X about themselves tantamounts to emotional blackmail. Love is a state of shared happiness and one of the best things in life. Love is not something to dangle like a carrot for a desired change. We all have our criteria on what makes another lovable to us. For some, looks are paramount, for others it's their mental outlook, intelligence, sense of humor, etc. It's up to ourselves to decide what will make or break the possibility of love and relationships. My own personal philosophy? Looks are good in as far as we can see, but it's the inside of a person with whom we will live with. Interesting post perverseangelic, thank you. merry

spankmepink11 -> RE: Changing the person you're with (5/25/2006 7:26:06 AM)
I also do not believe it's wise to want to change a partner regardless of whether or not this person is ones "ideal". I think they should be accepted as they are...or as one said...passed over as a non viable partner.. Although if one desires to make changes in themselves, their partner may certainly encourage and support it

MistressLorelei -> RE: Changing the person you're with (5/25/2006 8:31:32 AM)
I think it depends on how you define 'change'. A person's character is established long before I will ever get a hold of him... and that is something I would have to like or not consider him, knowing that one's character is pretty set in stone. Things that aren't a part of someone's core-being can be shaped. Behavior modification and training someone to perform for you in the appropriate manner is change. If power exchange is involved, that's a 'change' in itself. I think many (if not most) male submissives (I have no experience with females), are hoping that a dominant will make changes in them for the better, to 'program' him to be the best submissive for her. We all have things we would like to improve on, and often changes can be worked on together. If someone has given me himself and trusts me to take care of him, I think it's only fair to talk with him, and see if changes that would benefit him or the relationship are an option. Forcing someone to make changes in his life that he does not want to make, or making him feel awful about himself for not making those changes, is not something I agree with. We spend a lot of time with people we are involved in relationships with. Changes are inevitable as one must adapt to the other. Why not make the changes positive.... a work out partner, cooking healthier, stress management, mind expansion, changing bad habits, raising self esteem, etc.

KatyLied -> RE: Changing the person you're with (5/25/2006 8:35:36 AM)
Personality does not change very much over time. You can be a change agent for good/bad depending on the situation. I asked my Dom for some specific guidance in areas that I wanted to improve, such as finding more calm in my life and reframing the way I think about things. He gave me alot of guidance as far as how to go about making these changes, but I did the work myself.

juliaoceania -> RE: Changing the person you're with (5/25/2006 8:43:28 AM)
I would not start a relationship with someone I had to change, and I would not want to be with someone that wanted me to radically change. There are some things I want to change about myself, and if my partner wanted to help me with that, well good for us. But I think we all want to be accepted for who we really are. I am going to say something that may not be popular with others, but I am going to say it anyways. We all have preferences of what we like and do not like. I will not date smokers for example. But when those preferences cause us to not accept someone we start a relationship with, well to me that is immaturity. I am personally looking for someone I can grow old with. I am not going to want him to dye his hair, run marathons, or get face lifts to remain with me. I do not care if he dresses like a yuppie (in fact I like a man in jeans and a tshirt). It is all just very superficial to me. I do not understand anyone who does this. If you are in it for the long term we all have bad days. Those bad days get more often as we get older. It is just reality. If you can't find your ideal, and have to change someone to fit it, then perhaps your "ideal" is out of your league..lol

LuckyAlbatross -> RE: Changing the person you're with (5/25/2006 8:57:15 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: juliaoceania It is all just very superficial to me. I do not understand anyone who does this. If you are in it for the long term we all have bad days. Those bad days get more often as we get older. It is just reality. If you can't find your ideal, and have to change someone to fit it, then perhaps your "ideal" is out of your league..lol But we ALL have something "irrational" that we won't have in a partner. We've all got something that we consider important that someone else would look at and go "That's so stupid and superficial!" We get to be as superficial, irrational, picky and random as we want when deciding who we will and will not be with. For me, if a person's smell isn't right for me, there will be no relationship. If a person doesn't consider wearing black shoes with black belts something normal and appropriate, there will be no relationship. I'm ok with being called superficial and picky and irrational and unreasonable for that. I'm also ok with telling someone these things and NOT giving them grief if they say "Fuck you." THEY get to be as picky and superficial and irrational as they want to be also.

juliaoceania -> RE: Changing the person you're with (5/25/2006 9:10:03 AM)
LA, What I meant is it is superficial to hook up with someone that you want to change as in, not want them to get older or they always have to remain a certain weight. You want them to get a boob job whatever it is... if they are attractive on every level but something small and you love them, then why change them? I have preferences myself. I have many preferences of what I find attractive. I do not like beefcake men for example... they turn me off. I do not like young men, turn off. But if I get together with someone and they go gray and I want them to dye their hair to please me, I think (just my opinion) that is superficial. That was my point. On Edit: I have a brother that is way overweight. He will not date women that are overweight. He finds them repulsive. Now that is his choice, his preference. He can't get any of these bone thin women to date him. So he has been single for over a decade with very few dates. Should he find a woman that is a few pounds overweight so he can change her? I think it would be screwed up to do that, because then you have to ask the question, is he settling for the fat one so he can change her to his ideal? I do not care what other people choose to do, but most of us choose not to be "settled" for. There is someone out there that will accept us flaws and all, so why should anyone of us settle for less than that?

truesub4u -> RE: Changing the person you're with (5/25/2006 9:16:51 AM)
BDSM doesn't mean changing someone. In a nilla situation, if you do not like something about someone, you don't date them. Nothing changes. I get down right tickled about how some forget there's still the dating scene with us. You meet, you go out, you see if there's sparks, etc....then take it from there. Or am I missing something here? Because i'm not going to be claimed and owned right off the bat. Give up my whole life for one I just meet...only to later to find out it's not working....because of a habit....actions...etc..... When the meet accures....it begins...the journey of finding out likes....dislikes....toleration. But if I meet someone and right off the bat they state I hate such and such.....so you need to change such and such..... I'm gonna be the one tell them..... Don't let the door knob hit ya ....where the good lord split ya.....

LuckyAlbatross -> RE: Changing the person you're with (5/25/2006 9:22:39 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: juliaoceania I do not care what other people choose to do, but most of us choose not to be "settled" for. There is someone out there that will accept us flaws and all, so why should anyone of us settle for less than that? On the other hand, who defines "settling"? A lot of submissives can get bad raps from vanillas because they ARE willing to change so much, that they need permission from someone else to do things, that they will wear different clothes, make-up, even get plastic surgery, because this other person tells them to do so. Doing something to please another isn't necessarily bad- even IF that something is a change in yourself. What matters is WHY you are changing yourself- is it because you're afraid? Is it because you don't feel you deserve better? Or is it because you know it's right for yourself? Is it because you trust and want to obey and know that this change is, if not better for you, not harmful? . And it's easy to see on many subs profiles, they WANT to be changed, they WANT a dom who will make them over, mold them, etc. Now, whether that's a good thing or whether it's insecure co-dependents seeking validation, we can't know for sure. But some of them may just KNOW that they are ok with being under another's authority- and that means accepting changes to their lives and themselves.

juliaoceania -> RE: Changing the person you're with (5/25/2006 10:09:30 AM)
I think there is the clue.. they WANT to be changed, that is different from someone wanting to change them. If my partner wanted me to get a breast reduction, I wouldnt do it. If he wanted me to get braces for my one drifting tooth (yes and it bugs me), I would do it... why one and not the other? Because my tooth bugs me, and my breasts do not. If someone wants a smaller busted female they should go and find her. Lots of subs want to be changed. They are really changing themselves with the help of their One. They have to follow the changes implemented by their One. If they really do not want to change they won't do it. How many D/s relationships have floundered because a sub won't do what their Dom demanded of them as far as changing themselves? Personally one of the things I like about dating in the D/s world is the open we can be with the tools we have. Those checklists can either make or break whether you decide to go on with a relationship if you remain logical about it all. If someone is really turned on by my hard limits, I go elsewhere. If they desire more control then I can see myself submitting to (such as asking to go to the toilet for example) I will not date them. It goes both ways, if they want to alter my appearance outside of what I desire myself in a permanent way, well they may have to go elsewhere. As I said, I am looking for someone I can grow old with. I am looking for a lifemate. I am going to get gray hair, and I am going to have my boobs fall to my waist eventually. I want someone who is attracted to me on many levels, mostly the intellectual. Now there is a whole range of ideas I can be exposed to that I havent been before, I am looking for that mostly.... For me it is all between the ears, and I want my partner in crime to feel that way too.... for ME the rest is superficial over the long term, and I am looking long term. I wouldnt dump someone who was burned or maimed that I loved. I wouldnt dump them for being in a wheelchair... I love that person, then I love them. I have taken care of someone in a wheelchair, I know what it takes, so I am not just talking out my ass. But that is me, and my wants/desires/needs/ and opinions are my own

ArchangelMichael -> RE: Changing the person you're with (5/25/2006 10:13:05 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MistressLorelei I think it depends on how you define 'change'. A person's character is established long before I will ever get a hold of him... and that is something I would have to like or not consider him, knowing that one's character is pretty set in stone. Things that aren't a part of someone's core-being can be shaped. Behavior modification and training someone to perform for you in the appropriate manner is change. If power exchange is involved, that's a 'change' in itself. I think many (if not most) male submissives (I have no experience with females), are hoping that a dominant will make changes in them for the better, to 'program' him to be the best submissive for her. We all have things we would like to improve on, and often changes can be worked on together. If someone has given me himself and trusts me to take care of him, I think it's only fair to talk with him, and see if changes that would benefit him or the relationship are an option. Forcing someone to make changes in his life that he does not want to make, or making him feel awful about himself for not making those changes, is not something I agree with. We spend a lot of time with people we are involved in relationships with. Changes are inevitable as one must adapt to the other. Why not make the changes positive.... a work out partner, cooking healthier, stress management, mind expansion, changing bad habits, raising self esteem, etc. I definitely agree with this. There are a number of things in my life that I want to change for the better. Just often I think I'm too weak to do them on my own. I need encouragement, support, and understanding, not to mention a firm hand to make sure I do what I need to do. I think people who are open to behavior modification can benefit from it if it meets their personal goals. I'm not asking to be "fixed." I don't think I'm broken. But then again, maybe I need to be. [;)]

NakedOnMyChain -> RE: Changing the person you're with (5/25/2006 10:18:03 AM)
I'm not a big proponent of changing people to fit your desires. If there is a medical need for a partner to lose weight, or bathe more regularly, then it's OK. If they have a personality trait that hurts or embarrasses you, discuss it. To change someone just to fit your liking, or just to prove you can is shallow. Why would you choose someone you obviously didn't like in the first place? I know people that have done this, and I just don't understand it. If I'm with someone it's because I enjoy their company and am attracted to them. If one or the other is lacking, something has gone seriously awry.

truesub4u -> RE: Changing the person you're with (5/25/2006 10:19:13 AM)
Julia......LA...........I now know where i'm screwing up..... I don't want no one to change me....mold me....just accept me...for me....and should I decide to change something about me....that I am no longer happy with...then support my choice to change.... Oh well..... guess i'll continue screwing up.... it makes me happy....LOL

ArchangelMichael -> RE: Changing the person you're with (5/25/2006 10:27:37 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: juliaoceania As I said, I am looking for someone I can grow old with. I am looking for a lifemate. I am going to get gray hair, and I am going to have my boobs fall to my waist eventually. I want someone who is attracted to me on many levels, mostly the intellectual. Now there is a whole range of ideas I can be exposed to that I havent been before, I am looking for that mostly.... This reminds me of that song from The Wedding Singer, the one that Robby plays at the end in the airplane, "I Want to Grow Old With You." Seriously, if that isn't a person's desire towards the one they love, then they might want to question whether or not or how much they really love them. To me, love is about wanting to learn and grow with a person. It's not about how they look or what their hobbies are. Yes, those things are important to some extent in choosing a partner. After all, you need to find someone that you're attracted to (not necessarily someone that Hollywood says is beautiful) and you need to find someone with whom you can enjoy many activities together, both vanilla and kinky (if you're in this lifestyle). But once you've found that person, the greatest challenge of keeping the relationship going and truly loving that person is to accept the changes that will inevitably happen to you both together. The real success stories are those elderly couples who are still so in love with each other after they've been together for 40+ years. There's a reason the marriage vows say, "For better or worse, for sickness and in health, till death do you part." I think it's important for anyone who is going to get married to truly understand what this means. It's not just a bunch of words. It's a lifetime commitment.

ArchangelMichael -> RE: Changing the person you're with (5/25/2006 10:54:37 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: NakedOnMyChain I'm not a big proponent of changing people to fit your desires. If there is a medical need for a partner to lose weight, or bathe more regularly, then it's OK. If they have a personality trait that hurts or embarrasses you, discuss it. To change someone just to fit your liking, or just to prove you can is shallow. Why would you choose someone you obviously didn't like in the first place? I know people that have done this, and I just don't understand it. If I'm with someone it's because I enjoy their company and am attracted to them. If one or the other is lacking, something has gone seriously awry. I can answer this because I've done it before, myself. I met a girl online a few years ago. She was pretty young at the time (18) and I saw a lot of bitterness and immaturity in her. She was looking for a Daddy, so she and I started talking. We had a lot of things in common as far as hobbies go and I was willing to explore the Daddy/lg dynamic. After a few months of talking, she became mine online, then we moved to a long-distance relationship after I flew in to spend time with her in person. It worked for a bit, but I realized later why I decided to accept her as my submissive. I wanted to change too much about her. I thought, now here is a problem child that I can help out and mold and make her a better person. After all, I'm playing Daddy, right? I was wrong. We argued constantly about so many things and we both tried to change the other to better fit us. I realized this at a certain point and I let her go. The immaturity she displayed when I released her just confirmed the fact that I made the right decision. We never should have hooked up to begin with. So the lessons I learned? Don't start a relationship online. It's a wonderful way to get to know someone, but meet them first and see how things click when you meet before entering into any type of relationship with them unless you want the relationship to remain online (which I don't). Being someone's Daddy or Mommy in the BDSM lifestyle does not autoatically mean that they will listen to everything you say, be okay with the changes you want for them, or accept your punishments. Part of being a parent is molding your kids in their early stages of development. Being a D/s "Daddy" isn't the same because this person's real parents have already molded them in those early stages. So you can't expect to be able to mold this person in the same way. If any submissive tries to give you an owner's manual as to how they should be operated and dominated, RUN AWAY! Don't enter into a relationship with the express purpose of fixing that person because there are things about them that you don't like. My thoughts were that if I could dominate her, I could change what I didn't like about her and make her a better person in my eyes. The problem was that her basic character was not compatible with me. It was as if she was the enemy and I was trying to convert her to my side. That just didn't work. My basic nature is that I want to help people. But I cannot help people who do want to be helped or who feel that they are fine as they are and don't need to be helped, even if I see imperfections in them.

rose442 -> RE: Changing the person you're with (5/25/2006 11:06:37 AM)
What are your opinions on changing the person you are with, either physically or mentally? When you meet someone and are attracted to them, it is for who they are. Not what they don't have or need to change. When love grows in a relationship and you get to know your partner better. Then some changes might need to be.So that you can grow into a better person, healthier person, stronger person for yourself and your relationship. Whatever the case may be. But the decisions or changes that need to be, must be discussed and agreed upon by Bboth people. That is, do you think it's a good thing to find someone and mold him/her to your expectations? To find someone who matches your ideas physically and change his/her mental outlook? To find someone whose brain you like and change his/her body? No I think when you meet someone it is a person that is compatible with you and your wants, desires, dreams, and needs. You want to be happy. You want to feel secure. You don't want to feel like if you don't change "X", your partner will leave and not look back. Looking at this from a slaves point of view. And this house, the way things go here. When there is something new, a change that NEEDS to be. Master and I discuss it. What will happen if we leave "X" the way it is? What will happen if Wwe change "X". And how do Wwe go about the change. What will help or not help. What resources can we use to make it easier. I am going to touch on this subject just because it is Oour struggle right now. But no problems here, just explaining this change issue with an example. I had discussed repeatedly with Master that I needed to lose weight. I feel horrible physically. Not proud of myself. I want to look like I use to. I was not afraid for people to see me. I want that again. And Wwe had worked out this change because I needed it mentally. Then I went to the Dr. and He told me I had to lose at least 30# because it is causing health problems. So per Dr.s orders, my orders, and Masters support I will do it. Yes Master wants this change. And demands this change but it is what I desire and He knows that. So in effect, yes Master is changing something about me that was there when Wwe met. I am going to lose the weight. I see what health issues it has caused for my mom and cousin and I don't want to feel like they do. How about the degree? For example, do you think you would start a relationship with someone who -totally- doesn't match your criteria or who has a factor that would otherwise disqualify him/her and plan on changing it (as in the fat thread someone who is overweight when you detest overweight people). What about getting involved with someone who is just slightly different than your criteria (a Blondie when you prefer red heads). No I would not begin a relationship with someone that is totally not what I am looking for. I was looking for an older Dom, and I got one. He is 32 years older than me. I wanted a Dom that had experience in the lifestyle and I got one. He has 20+ years experience. I knew to be happy these are things that had to be there. Looks are not important to me. That is the outside. And that don't count. It is what is in the heart and mind of a person that means the world to me. And there Dom attitude, of course. I need a strong Dom.... When I first entered Masters chat room. I was new and naive. And the statement that haunts me to this day (lol), is the one I made when Master Stoney asked me what I was looking for in a Dom. I said "I am looking for a Dom that is strong, One that can control me". And that was the beginning to the rest of Oour lives together. Do you think it's a good idea to enter a relationship -knowing- you want to change the person? No, I think that makes for a very unhealthy beginning and probably won't survive. There has to be a beginning attraction between 2 people. And if there isn't you are doomed. rose442

ExistentialSteel -> RE: Changing the person you're with (5/25/2006 11:38:10 AM)
You can help people to improve by doing nothing except making them secure, sexually satisfied, happy and not lonely. Do these things and they will stop negative behavior without you saying a word.

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