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RE: Is it true that that several shampoos contain a ner... - 11/10/2011 2:51:48 AM   
TheFireWithinMe


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Fair is fair al-Aswad, I always learn something from your posts. Glad you're posting again.

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(in reply to Aswad)
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RE: Is it true that that several shampoos contain a ner... - 11/10/2011 4:37:56 PM   
Termyn8or


Posts: 18681
Joined: 11/12/2005
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"Feel safer now? About shampoos and mammograms, I mean? "

Nope, just less safe about all the other aspects of life. However I still commend you on a very well thought out and composed post. Your assertions make sense, and I really don't think I have to verify every little thing because it's probably actually too easy. Kudos.

I did kinda jump in, but I think we also need to think abiout the big picture in another way. The question is - how much do we want to adapt ? In fiction it has been proposed that an alien race comes and just about takes over and dies off because of our germs to which they have no resistance. (WOTW). On the other hand there is evidence that by traveling the globe, people have spread diseases all over the place, as well as picked a few up.

This type of adaptation is one thing when you are considering for example, diseases. It is another when considering human interventions into the cycle. Would pure sugar, HFCS or lysergic acid diethylamide have ever refined itself ? I doubt it.

This comes down to the question whether we are fit to survive or not. And the tertiary issue of just how much do we care to adapt ? We humans have been known to adapt our environment to suit us instead. One day perhaps we may consider unadapting it.

It really is coming down to where we want to draw the line. There is some sort of poison in damnear everything. It's a matter of how much and what kind I guess.

T^T

(in reply to Aswad)
Profile   Post #: 82
RE: Is it true that that several shampoos contain a ner... - 11/13/2011 7:33:39 PM   
Aswad


Posts: 9374
Joined: 4/4/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Termyn8or

Nope, just less safe about all the other aspects of life.


Well, glad the perspective improved, at least.

quote:

I did kinda jump in, but I think we also need to think abiout the big picture in another way.


I tried that. Then at about 720 degrees field of view, the lens broke, and I decided to stick to art shots... or attempting to elevate potshots to art.

quote:

The question is - how much do we want to adapt?


It doesn't really matter all that much how much we want to adapt.

To borrow a line from a nice action movie: adapt or die.

Nice kid. Makes me want to have one.

The choice as to what we adapt, however, is interesting. Classically, we have transitioned from adapting ourselves to the environment, into adapting the environment to ourselves, and now we're back to another round of both, as another pair of entities have taken our place at the top of the food chain: nation states and (at the apex) corporations. Those eat us all, and dealing with that will be a crucial step in our adaptation (evolution, if you will).

Failing to make the step quickly enough will result in the extinction of all three species and the evolution of a new advanced species, likely either rats or squids if the biosphere remains capable of supporting mammalian life in the post-halocene era. At some point in the future, they will find the bones of strange bipeds, and eventually arrive at the conclusion that we've never done anything more substantial than building large concrete-and-steel monuments of unknown purpose, before proceeding to repeat our mistakes on their own. Lather. Rinse. Repeat. Eventually, by chance, some species will get it right, if the planet supports organic life that long.

How's that space ship coming along?

quote:

In fiction it has been proposed that an alien race comes and just about takes over and dies off because of our germs to which they have no resistance.


Which entirely neglects that anyone able to bridge the energy gap of even the comparatively limited differential orbital velocities of Earth and Mars (some 2000km/s, which you can convert into energy under the assumption that a vessel of interest will have a mass of at least a few tonnes, disregarding the bounded density of any known energy storage) will, obviously, have little interest in taking over a planet that doesn't even care to colonize outer space, is running out of the basic building blocks of life, is wasting its least renewable resources (e.g. helium) and shows no interest in anything but reproduction, consumption and planetolysis.

From the perspective of a species advanced enough to make it to Earth from anywhere, humans are large virial lifeforms that probably need to be contained, and it is plausible that they would either be compatible with us and make contact out of curiosity, or simply collect a few samples and leave, or sterilize the planet and then colonize it. None of these would be decisions humans would have a part in at any point, nor any potential for influencing the outcomes of in any way.

If they did land, they would probably encounter new microorganisms, and their medical science would likely lag behind their physics, so it's plausbile they would have a problem. The response would probably be to assume something went to hell and sterilize the planet as a retaliatory measure, or as simple medicine of the sort we practice ourselves (ever seen the holocaust that followed the discovery of bovine spongiform encephalopathy?).

Of course, we'd be less equipped to deal with their microbes, whereas they would encounter ours before entering the solar system, as convection and the like has brought plenty of them up into high atmospheric layers where thermal diffusion has brought some high enough to be carried away by solar wind and such. Chances are that's the first sign of life in this area they would encounter, as Earth is a single blue pixel on a space telescope as seen from Voyager. There isn't much to suggest our solar system has life as seen from afar, unless one is explicitly searching for life, and then it takes getting closer to actually find anything more than a faint indication there may be something in the goldilocks zone.

quote:

On the other hand there is evidence that by traveling the globe, people have spread diseases all over the place, as well as picked a few up.


Yeah, it's getting more homogenous, and we're pretty much violating some of the basic elements of any biosphere: the compartmentalization. Norway now has tropical fungal strains in waters that once did not need any cleaning to be just right for drinking. Tuberculosis, once extinct, is coming back, and exhibits multidrug resistance. MRSA was nothing, once, but it's becoming a real issue because of people getting cosmetic surgery done in India. Rattus norvecigus wasn't endemic to the region, but they're easily found in the morning hours of a weekend day, cleaning up the streets, and are assumed to number about the same as humans.

I've had an intensely yellow spider on my porch that prolly got there from Australia, as the final approach to FSL is over this neighbourhood, and I'm not the only one that was miffed at the prospect of two flu seasons per year, or having lots of kids in the hospital with O157 out of Germany.

Overall, globalization has some serious issues, but they're tragically far down on the list of things that should have been addressed by the "stop. assess. address. resume." approach, rather than the combination of theater and business as usual. And I'm not just talking environment here, though the non-sponsored research done by independent groups here shows that the worldwide discussions on the subject are missing the most critical warning lights, like the gulf stream flow rate (down by 50-75%, if memory serves), south pole convection columns (possibly below sustainable- or even restartable- levels) and so forth... and Sahara, of course, where the Somali and Ethiopeans will deplete all the arable land shortly, while the west wastes money on maintaining their population above the level supportable by what will soon be a desert due to this course of action, rather than reversing the desert formation.

Parliamentary democracy is actually the greatest threat, but it won't be around for long, whereas human domestication, in the #2 slot, is going to be the long term killer. It is the nail that keeps the coffin shut, and I've no shortage of distaste for a development of that sort, but you won't find a lot of people willing to leave shit behind to go do something about it all, or even just to withdraw into a rational middle ground between the crazy status quo and the freaky neoluddism. Hell, there's not even a nation state that will let you do it, nor unclaimed land in which no nation state will blast you to hell for your desire to live your own way.

Germs are a pretty distant concern if you're looking to improve anyone's lives.

quote:

This comes down to the question whether we are fit to survive or not. And the tertiary issue of just how much do we care to adapt ? We humans have been known to adapt our environment to suit us instead. One day perhaps we may consider unadapting it.


"We humans" don't act as a homogenous group. It is always either momentum (suffrage, civil rights, infanticide), people in positions of power (9/11 NYC, 9/11 Mexico, JFK, Berlin), or one (wo)man making a critical choice at a critical time (Ghandi, Hitler, Theresa, Alexander, J d'Arc, Ivan, MLK, Vlad Tepeš, Constantine, Leonidas).

And we will not unadapt it. That would be unpleasant, even uncomfortable, and possibly even require agency, risk, balls or unicorns.

As for whether we're fit to survive or not... we're working on it... becoming less fit to survive, I mean.

Let's hope the powers that be are merciful.

quote:

It really is coming down to where we want to draw the line. There is some sort of poison in damnear everything. It's a matter of how much and what kind I guess.


Ever consider that you may be thinking about these things to distract yourself from thinking about other things?

I don't think about them at all, and I've always got my seat in the upright position, buckled into the web on a 4-point.

Health,
al-Aswad.



_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do.
" -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


(in reply to Termyn8or)
Profile   Post #: 83
RE: Is it true that that several shampoos contain a ner... - 11/13/2011 8:33:34 PM   
Termyn8or


Posts: 18681
Joined: 11/12/2005
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"I don't think about them at all, and I've always got my seat in the upright position, buckled into the web on a 4-point."

That has become apparent.

"likely either rats or squids if the biosphere remains capable of supporting mammalian life "

Not to pick you apart but squids are not mammals. Y'know what just occurred to me ? Mammals are just about the most fragile form(s) of life on this planet. And still somehow it can't seem to get rid of us.

"Eventually, by chance, some species will get it right, if the planet supports organic life that long. "

Forever the optimist.

"How's that space ship coming along?"

Still looking for that unobtainium. Even WW Grainger doesn't have it. When Grainger doesn't have it, special methods and tactics are needed. Yup, the SMAT team !

"will, obviously, have little interest in taking over a planet that doesn't even care to colonize outer space, is running out of the basic building blocks of life, is wasting its least renewable resources (e.g. helium) and shows no interest in anything but reproduction, consumption and planetolysis."

Yes, there is safety in depravity and destitution. Even though we are used to it, if they come fom Meezar 5 to conquer us, after taking a look around a couple of different things could happen. They could take over and find out how useless we are and then A. kill us all or B. save the energy and just leave. By the time they get here though we might be in such bad shape they would take pity on us, and vaporize the place. However that might be against some law because then our moon would be searching for a new Earth and the fucker might run into something.

"Overall, globalization has some serious issues"

No shit ! ? Well fuckit, let's just undo it. Oh wait, it can't be undone. Oops.

"And we will not unadapt it. That would be unpleasant, even uncomfortable, and possibly even require agency, risk, balls or unicorns. "

Yeah, all we got is the unicorns.

"As for whether we're fit to survive or not... we're working on it... becoming less fit to survive, I mean."

Yes, in a few years you will be prone to catch a disease if you don't wash your hands before touching your hands.

"Ever consider that you may be thinking about these things to distract yourself from thinking about other things?"

Consider ? It's a foregone conclusion.

Actually I think the human race itself is getting old. It would explain alot of things. The only problem is to figure out if this is a new thing. Also, was there ever a time when it wasn't getting worse ? Maybe it was always this way and now it's just better at it. On a highway to hell perhaps. Men shall seek death and not find it. You can't even buy a decent size knife anymore in this country.

More later when I catch a buzzzzzzzz.

T^T

< Message edited by Termyn8or -- 11/13/2011 8:40:24 PM >

(in reply to Aswad)
Profile   Post #: 84
RE: Is it true that that several shampoos contain a ner... - 11/16/2011 8:17:00 PM   
Kraehe1


Posts: 2
Joined: 11/13/2011
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Accept no substitutes... Insist on real poo for your hair.

K.

(in reply to Termyn8or)
Profile   Post #: 85
RE: Is it true that that several shampoos contain a ner... - 11/16/2011 9:12:26 PM   
Termyn8or


Posts: 18681
Joined: 11/12/2005
Status: offline
FR/UFR

Real poo ? Well then I guess I would have to make some lye soap, and have it disolved in water or something. What did they do 100 years ago ?

Maybe shampoo is a new thing because everyone's hair used to fall out. Look at the pictures of Geoge Washington and shit, they all wore wigs. Why ? It certainly wasn't because they had hair that looked like they wanted it to.

Or maybe old shampoo isn't the way to go. Since the Almighty buck has finally caught it's tail, one of the reasons that shampoo makers do not go out of business is because their customers' hair does not fall out. Their product should promote keeping the hair in.

But the thing is people don't realize that we don't know the effect of these chemicals on us, and they are not screened or anything. Just a USDA rubber stamp if it's to be ingested, but a soap can is different. If you bathe in it you ingest it through the skin. People take salt baths WHY. Swimming in the ocean (salt water) is different, WHY. A nitroglycerine patch works, WHY. A nicotine patch might work, WHY.

And then there are deodorants that go on alot more fertile skin. Now just think of all the things you might put on your mucous membranes which will absorb stuff a hell of alot faster than your skin.

But the skin is alot more exposed to the environment than for example - a vagina. Even a mouth. That means sitting in a car with "R-r-rich Cor-r-rinthian leather" puts tanning agents and all kinds of nasty shit in your body. Yesterday I got a bunch of black silicone sealant all over my hands, though it is wearing off like it does, WTF did I absorb from that ?

What did I absorb from puppies chewing on me ? I really do believe that dog's saliva is a good thing usually. It doesn't have to be injected into the blood, just absorbed through the skin. I think it bolsters the immune system as well as recuperative ability. I am not saying it is a profound difference, it's something to the good and I think some people pick it up through the skin with exposure to dogs.

Just some shit I think. Seems to make some sense.

T^T

(in reply to Kraehe1)
Profile   Post #: 86
RE: Is it true that that several shampoos contain a ner... - 11/17/2011 7:45:26 PM   
Kraehe1


Posts: 2
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It was a joke ...   sham vs real ... oh boy ...

K.

(in reply to Termyn8or)
Profile   Post #: 87
RE: Is it true that that several shampoos contain a ner... - 11/17/2011 8:09:15 PM   
Rule


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FR

I have got a dozen bottles of shampoo, but I wash my hair, head and body with a liquid dish washing soap.

(in reply to Kraehe1)
Profile   Post #: 88
RE: Is it true that that several shampoos contain a ner... - 11/23/2011 8:02:09 AM   
Aswad


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Joined: 4/4/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Termyn8or

Not to pick you apart but squids are not mammals. Y'know what just occurred to me ? Mammals are just about the most fragile form(s) of life on this planet. And still somehow it can't seem to get rid of us.


We haven't been around long. Give it time.

Squids are indeed not mammals. Still, they are one of two candidate species to replacing humanity at the top of the technological food chain. Rats have decent intellect, some tool usage, good dexterity and a high selection pressure (from humans). Squids have the environment, poorly understood intellect, some tool usage, excellent dexterity and moderate to high selection pressure. Overall, rats are more likely to experience critical selection pressure at a point where they're in a position to make the leap forward. Neither species is hindered by a lack of opposable thumbs. Both appear capable of the complexity of language required to establish the long term cooperation needed to build knowledge across generations. At the moment, rats are the ones that have the most well developed culture and crossgeneration knowledge building.

The main advantage for squids is their environment, which affords them protection from most extinction level events and thus a longer timescale in which to evolve. Rats, however, are much further along, as far as I know, and I wouldn't be all that surprised if the first rat cave drawings appear in your lifetime. We are really boosting them along with our efforts to eradicate them with our own intellects, and the complex ways in which they can interact with us and the environment we have built.

Rats are social creatures, too. I remember unintentionally falling asleep while having a few out of their cage (we were watching them). Woke up with a couple of them sleeping on top of me, one sitting on top of the couch washing itself, while one was sleeping in a little ball under my chin. They had taken turns exploring a bit, but preferred to be around, rather than off by themselves. The cat was not pleased about sharing, but she knows what the difference between a pet and a pest is, so she pointedly ignored them.

One wonders if other species have already left the planet prior to one of the past extinction events.

quote:

Forever the optimist.


I prefer 'realist', but either 'optimist' or 'pessimist' will do, depending on your relative outlook.

quote:

Still looking for that unobtainium. Even WW Grainger doesn't have it. When Grainger doesn't have it, special methods and tactics are needed. Yup, the SMAT team !


No need for unobtainium. Get me the money, a plot of land at least a dozen miles to a side and the workshop. That'll get you ⅝ to ⅞ the way there. I can't get you much specific impulse for navigation, so you will have to run the transfer orbit calculations by the nice folks at NASA. Don't expect to be conscious going up, unless you fancy choking on vomit. The body load will be inside survivable parameters, but you don't want to try it if you have any aneurysms waiting to splode.

Expect a couple of nations to try to shoot you down on your way up. I don't fancy trying to stick ablative heat shields on it that are adequate to getting rid of the friction heating from launching at sea level. The mother of all balloons will give you the altitude to minimize the heating, which is easier, but leaves you vulnerable to being shot down before you get up to ignition altitude. Once you launch, there's nothing but boredom and worrying about what mistakes I may have made between you and your destination.

The bill isn't likely to fit the budget, though.

quote:

Yes, there is safety in depravity and destitution. Even though we are used to it, if they come fom Meezar 5 to conquer us, after taking a look around a couple of different things could happen. They could take over and find out how useless we are and then A. kill us all or B. save the energy and just leave. By the time they get here though we might be in such bad shape they would take pity on us, and vaporize the place. However that might be against some law because then our moon would be searching for a new Earth and the fucker might run into something.


Not much for it to run into here. I don't think it has escape velocity for the solar system, and there's already plenty of small rocks flying around the place.

quote:

No shit ! ? Well fuckit, let's just undo it. Oh wait, it can't be undone. Oops.


It can be undone, but it's like any system with inertia: the brakes need to dissipate all that momentum. That gets hot, fast.

quote:

Yeah, all we got is the unicorns.


I'll take three.

quote:

Yes, in a few years you will be prone to catch a disease if you don't wash your hands before touching your hands.


I alcorinse entering and leaving the house. That's socially responsible behavior. Keeps a bit of a barrier between my shit and everyone else's shit. My house is not a sterile environment, and I don't ever intend for it to be. Norway isn't all that sterile, either. We learned the lesson about antibiotic resistance before it became an issue.

quote:

Consider ? It's a foregone conclusion.


Thought so.

quote:

Men shall seek death and not find it. You can't even buy a decent size knife anymore in this country.


Which is saying something, as we have to import them from you guys.

Well, we would, except China makes better ones for less money.

2" can reach any interesting target in the body, anyway.

Health,
al-Aswad.



_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do.
" -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


(in reply to Termyn8or)
Profile   Post #: 89
RE: Is it true that that several shampoos contain a ner... - 11/23/2011 8:52:05 AM   
LillyBoPeep


Posts: 6873
Joined: 12/29/2010
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad

Rats are social creatures, too. I remember unintentionally falling asleep while having a few out of their cage (we were watching them). Woke up with a couple of them sleeping on top of me, one sitting on top of the couch washing itself, while one was sleeping in a little ball under my chin. They had taken turns exploring a bit, but preferred to be around, rather than off by themselves. The cat was not pleased about sharing, but she knows what the difference between a pet and a pest is, so she pointedly ignored them.



I did this once before, too, when i had my first group of 4 boys. I had them out and fell asleep. Blinken went to sleep on my night stand, Ben and Nod curled up near my stomach, and Winken went to sleep on my pillow. They didn't go rambling and tear up stuff, they just prefer to all be together in a unit.

Ohhh -- they also ostracized Blinken for a period of time because he bit me when I gave them all a bath. They didn't want to let him back into the cage, and they wouldn't let him sleep near them. He'd try to, and they'd all get up and move away. =p I felt sorry for him. haha
They had an idea of what was "right" as far as the social structure went, and Blinken had offended it, and they punished him for it. Blinkie had an attitude issue, but after that, he became the sweetest rat, and once they saw that Blinken and I had "made up," they let him rejoin the group. =p

I also watched a great documentary on them and how they can replay scenarios in their brains. They had a rat with some kind of sensor wired into its brain that displayed data on a screen interpreted from synapse firings, and watched it go through a maze a few times. After the first time, it would pause at places where it had gotten confused before, and they'd see on the screen that its brain was firing the exact same way (literally creating the exact same pattern) that it had during the first run, but the rat was just sitting there. Then the rat would make a different decision. It was pretty fascinating. ^_^

And the food-testing behavior -- it's why ingestion poisons rarely work on them, and they've become immune to a lot of them. They take a small amount and if they get sick, they'll refuse to eat the rest. And by taking these small amounts, they expose themselves to chemicals we use to try to kill them, and they build up immunities that they can pass to their offspring.

They are fascinating little animals. ^_^

The octopus is another animal that's not so well understand, but more intelligent than we think. Great problem solving skills.

< Message edited by LillyBoPeep -- 11/23/2011 8:56:07 AM >


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(in reply to Aswad)
Profile   Post #: 90
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