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RE: Convincing the Pyschologist - 5/31/2006 3:24:19 AM   
sharainks


Posts: 499
Joined: 12/13/2004
Status: offline 		Most mental health centers have sliding scales.  Some charge as little as $3 a session and some do pro bono (free).  From your last remarks it sounds like this guy has already made up his mind.  I echo those who say a bad therapist is worse than no therapist. 

If you still feel like you can't go elsewhere tell him his attitude is getting in the way and remind him that he is not supposed to place his personal values on his clients.  Maybe that will wake him up a bit.

(in reply to HollyS)
Profile   Post #: 21
RE: Convincing the Pyschologist - 5/31/2006 4:07:11 AM   
JohnWarren


Posts: 3807
Joined: 3/18/2005
From: Delray Beach, FL
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: PlayfulOne

This may sound a little off the wall but might I suggest giving him a copy of John Warrens book "The Loving Dominant"?



If she wants to privately send me the name and address of the therapist, I'll be glad to send a copy to him.

_____________________________

www.lovingdominant.org

(in reply to PlayfulOne)
Profile   Post #: 22
RE: Convincing the Pyschologist - 5/31/2006 4:34:19 PM   
iliv2servher


Posts: 228
Joined: 5/17/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: JohnWarren

quote:

ORIGINAL: fullofgrace

i thought psychiatrists were the ones who were more trained in testing and diagnostics and psychologists were more specialized in counseling. but maybe i'm just crazy.

Some dynamic (Freudian) programs require years of therapy for the doctor.


It has been my experience that often the psychiatrist needs psychotherapy more than the patient!  (ha-ha)

There are many very good KAPs here in the bay area, but the patient may live in an area where none are availabe.

(in reply to JohnWarren)
Profile   Post #: 23
RE: Convincing the Pyschologist - 5/31/2006 5:42:32 PM   
diamonddreamlove


Posts: 770
Joined: 5/19/2006
Status: offline 		I am a Licensed Professional Counselor.  Training for a psychologist and counselor are similar.  We both use the DSM IV-R to make a diagnosis and i have never found anything that says being a submissive has a diagnosis.  We ( i am submissive also) could be considered  ill only as a Paraphillia Not Otherwise Specified but then only if it is causing us problems that require attention.  Tell that tight behinded Psychologist to get a life and that perhaps he/she would be a lot more helpful to their clients with a less judgemental attitude.  Sorry just makes me mad at my own profession when i hear stories such as these.  I have talked with others in my profession that have no idea what BDSM is and have had to explain.  They are usually interested and want to share with me the concepts.  So find another Psychologist and if this one gives you any trouble get back with me and i will be glad to make further private suggestions.  If therapy is needed you do NOT have to discuss this aspect of your life unless you so choose.  A professional that closed off would not be my choice to discuss my own personal views if i were seeking counseling.  This professional should refer you to another psychologist since he/she obviously has a personal sexual problem that perhaps requires that they seek additional training (transference?).  Not all professionals are equiped emotionally to handle all types of conditions and if this one has sexual hangups then that is a problem.  Smiles i think they must have had trouble reading Freud for sure.

(in reply to collegebeauty)
Profile   Post #: 24
RE: Convincing the Pyschologist - 5/31/2006 6:50:28 PM   
HollyS


Posts: 230
Joined: 1/5/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: sharainks

I'd like to clear up an assertion I've seen made.  Not all psychologists are PhD level.  Most states license psychologists at the master's level as well.  In some states, mine for instance, the license designation can be the same for a PhD as a master's level.  At the level you can practice independently in my state a MS and PhD are both LCP's or licensed clinical psychotherapists. 

<snip>

What I see in her post probably is an ethical violation in that therapists are not supposed to place their values on others.  Its not likely someone would lose their license over it, or even be censured for an ethical violation. The State licensing board usually does not deal with ethical issues.  That comes from the organizations that write the ethical standards IE The American Psychological Association.


A person must have a doctorate (either a PhD or a PsyD) and pass the state licensing exams to be called a psychologist.  There are no states that allow Masters-level clinicians to be called psychologists, though anyone with any credential may call themselves a "psychotherapist", "therapist" or "clinician."  There is a certification called LPC (Licensed Professional Counselor) or LCPC (Licensed Clinical Professional Counselor) which are given to licensed Master's level therapists who are doing post-graduate work in psychology/counseling. 

As licenses are given to psychologists by the state in which they practice, ethical violations are handled by the DPR (Department of Professional Regulation) which is a division of the State Licensing Board.  Professional organizations such as the APA often draw up ethical guidelines, but have no authority to enforce them on practitioners.  The APA's power comes in the ability to regulate organizations (such as schools) rather than individuals, over whom they have no power to dictate behaviour.

college's therapist seems to be ignorant about bdsm issues rather than intentionally biased.  If he or she is uneducated about the lifestyle, he or she cannot be expected to properly treat the first person who presents to them with this particular life issue.  I hope that the therapist's encounter with college might get him or her to do some reading, talk to some kink-friendly clinicians, and come to do better by college and any other future clients who may happen along.  Ignorance is curable.  Bias is reversable.  It just takes some work.  I wish college and her therapist the best of luck in this.

~Holly

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(in reply to sharainks)
Profile   Post #: 25
RE: Convincing the Pyschologist - 5/31/2006 7:04:37 PM   
spectreandnectre


Posts: 401
Joined: 3/20/2006
From: nebraska
Status: offline 		i have recently had a situation where i did talk to a counselor and they had me see a psychiatrist for some testing but i was told i am a ver passive person and feel i need to please the world...lmao  well i did learn something in the short time i saw the counselor and that was to take care of myself too and to realize i cant please the world.  i however did mention to the pyschiatrist about the submission thing and he was very supportive and understanding and just advised me that if this is the life i choose i still need to be aware of the fact that i will never be able to please E/everyone and why stress over the fact that i can't.  Since i have made this realization and quit trying to please E/everyone things are sooo much easier...does it bother me that i still am not making people happy all the time?  Sure but then i think about the fact that i need to please only those who are close to me, namely Him, me and my children to a degree.  i had a very lifestyle friendly advisor on this and i am soooo sorry you didnt it makes a big difference.

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"When I see you, the world stops as if the only purpose in life was for me to please you."

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RE: Convincing the Pyschologist - 6/3/2006 5:09:31 AM   
sharainks


Posts: 499
Joined: 12/13/2004
Status: offline 		Sorry Holly but my home state does in fact label people at the Master's level as psychologists. The offical designative is Licensed Master's Level Psychologist.  So do the surrounding states that I have checked with about obtaining licensure.  In fact there are a whole lot more people doing therapy with master's degrees than doctorate degrees.  I have no clue about where you get your information but its easy enough to check out the requirements for any state by searching mental+health+licensure+state name. I think you would find that the vast majority of states do license master's level people as therapists.

I'm licensed as an LCPC.  I got that with a 60 hour MS program, passing the first initial test, becoming an LPC, then  4,000 hours of supervised practice and another clinical level test. With a doctorate the upper level designation would remain LCPC.  The main difference here is the supervised practice.  Without it, no matter your degree you stay at the first level.

As far as ethical violations, again you are apparently generalizing from your own state's provisions. My state has no provisions for an ethical component.  The procedure starts with whatever ethical board wrote the ethics, APA etc.

< Message edited by sharainks -- 6/3/2006 5:15:49 AM >

(in reply to spectreandnectre)
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RE: Convincing the Pyschologist - 6/3/2006 11:24:17 AM   
HollyS


Posts: 230
Joined: 1/5/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: sharainks

Sorry Holly but my home state does in fact label people at the Master's level as psychologists. 


Sharainks, I did a search on your specific state and found this:
http://www.ksbsrb.org/psychologists.html

Basic licensure requirements:
  • Good moral character and merit public trust
  • Doctorate degree in field of psychology 2 years of supervised work experience
  • Pass a nationally standardized competency examination (EPPP) 70%.  The EPPP exam is offered daily once registered with PES.  You must have an licensure application on file with the BSRB.  Once approved to sit for the exam, you will receive instructions on how to register for the exam.

    I also found this:   http://www.apa.org/monitor/sep99/pr3.html

    "In Oklahoma and Kansas, the state psychological associations have won hard-fought battles to retain the title of "psychologist" for doctoral-level professionals only. The laws permit people with master's degrees in psychology to be licensed for independent practice if they complete a credentialling process more rigorous than currently required. However, these practitioners cannot call themselves psychologists.

    Under the Kansas law, master's-level psychology practitioners, marriage and family therapists, and professional counselors who attain a new and more demanding "clinical level" of credentialling will be authorized to diagnose and treat mental disorders listed in the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual. Master's-level psychology practitioners who earn those credentials will have the title "licensed clinical psychotherapist."

    Within your state specifically, Licensed Master's Level Psychologists were eliminated in 1997 with the goal of transitioning all such clinicians over to being "Licensed Clinical Psychotherapist" when they go to renew their licenses.  I got this off the same website:  http://www.ksbsrb.org

    Beyond that, sometimes you'll find people using the term "Psychologist Level I" or "Psychologist Level II" for Masters Level people within the prison systems of many states.  This use is allowed because it is considered a job title rather than a professional designation but isn't allowed outside those systems.  I didn't bring it up the first time because I was afrait it would confuse the issue. 

    quote:


    In fact there are a whole lot more people doing therapy with master's degrees than doctorate degrees.  I think you would find that the vast majority of states do license master's level people as therapists.


    I totally agree with this and thought I was clear in my initial post.  People of varying degrees and credentials may call themselves "clinicians", "therapists", "psychotherapists", and "counselor."  Those titles vary from state to state as to what one must do to use them after one's name.  The term "psychologist" has special significance and is reserved for doctoral level practitioners only, aside from the limited use I referred to above. 

    With all of your current certifications, you would indeed be able to call yourself a psychologist if you received a doctorate in psychology and did the attendent internship that is required for licensure.  Some states would also allow it if you got a doctorate in Education, but not all states.  If you chose Social Work, Sociology, Child Development or any number of other disciplines or if you got your doctorate in Psychology but didn't do the follow-up supervised internship then you're right, your designation would remain LCPC.

    quote:


    As far as ethical violations, again you are apparently generalizing from your own state's provisions. My state has no provisions for an ethical component.  The procedure starts with whatever ethical board wrote the ethics, APA etc.


    A state can make whatever ethics rules it likes to bind practicing psychologists, physicians, or other health care professionals.  They are free to consult or use in full the APA guidelines, but no state is required to do so. It's purely a matter of "the state giveth, the state can taketh away."  The APA isn't a governing board and can't institute licensure charges against an individual clinician -- they have no authority to restrict or revoke any individual's license to practice.  However, the APA code of ethics is EXPLICITLY adopted as part of the rules of license in some states (e.g. Illinois) and surely are considered in all states.  So while I agree that state ethical guidelines vary from state to state, and they are set by each state's Department of Professional Regulation (whatever that Dept. is called in each state), there still is some uniformity in regulating psychologist conduct. 

    ~Holly

    *edited for a typo*

    < Message edited by HollyS -- 6/3/2006 11:49:15 AM >

    _____________________________

    I wish my lawn were emo, so it would cut itself.

    (in reply to sharainks)
    • Profile   Post #: 28
    RE: Convincing the Pyschologist - 6/3/2006 11:55:10 AM   
    Emperor1956


    Posts: 2370
    Joined: 11/7/2005
    Status: offline     		sharainks:

    hollyS has posted a detailed reply which corrects several errors in your reply to her.  But one thing you said needs comment:

    quote:

      My state has no provisions for an ethical component.


    I think you misspoke here, miss.  Kansas ABSOLUTELY has an "ethical component" in its licensure of behavior health professionals.  You must have made a mistake typing otherwise. If you doubt it, practice unethically for a while and see what happens.  But I worry for your clients in that instance.

    E.

    _____________________________

    "When you wake up, Pooh," said Piglet, "what's the first thing you say?"
    "What's for breakfast? What do you say, Piglet?"
    "I say, I wonder what's going to happen exciting today?"
    Pooh nodded thoughtfully.
    "It's the same thing," he said.

    (in reply to sharainks)
    Profile   Post #: 29
    RE: Convincing the Pyschologist - 6/3/2006 1:15:23 PM   
    iliv2servher


    Posts: 228
    Joined: 5/17/2006
    Status: offline     		I would just like to add something to this discussion.  With all of the banter about college degrees, credentials and state licensing requirements, it just makes more sense to me that when picking out a therapist of any kind, that you first interview them.  Sound them out on the issues which are of particular concern to you.  Everyone (including and excluding therapists) has their prejudices and biases, and if you cannot find a self-proclaimed KAP (Kink Aware Professional), it only makes sense to be honest and straightforward when choosing a therapist who can best understand your issues.

    -iliv2servHer

    (in reply to Emperor1956)
    Profile   Post #: 30
    RE: Convincing the Pyschologist - 6/3/2006 1:41:23 PM   
    sharainks


    Posts: 499
    Joined: 12/13/2004
    Status: offline     		I do realize my state's requirements are confusing but indeed there are still LMLP's practicing.  Also as far as my own ethical guidelines the protocol is first address it with the person, then if they don't cease the behavior file an ethical compliant with the ACA who governs counseling ethics.  Certainly the state could file an ethical complaint as well as an individual. Based on the results they could pull someone's license or make them be supervised etc.

    However there is a world of difference between stating NO ONE can practice with a master's level degree and the provisions Holly quoted for that licensure.  The KS/OK APA thing is just that...their thing.  Master's level psychologists are still in the majority in KS.  Why do PhD level people fight it?  It makes the job field far more competitive.  If a select group can close the requirements then they have almost unlimited ability to move from job to job.  Add a few hundred or thousand more and that changes.

    BTW if one is practicing ethically the first visit to any mental health professional should include their qualifications to provide therapy, their licensure designation, and whether or not they are in supervision.  One should not have to ask for those. 

    With that I'm done with this.  My simple intention was to counter the notion that only doctorate level people practice in mental health fields.  That simply is not the case.  It does wear a bit when you work in the field, you know dozens of people in your own state and other states who practice with a MS degree and people insist that "only" PhD's can practice. 

    (in reply to iliv2servher)
    Profile   Post #: 31
    RE: Convincing the Pyschologist - 6/3/2006 2:35:17 PM   
    Lordandmaster


    Posts: 10943
    Joined: 6/22/2004
    Status: offline     		In the NPD thread, you were arguing that only psychiatric professionals with their years and years of training are authorized to determine what constitutes a disorder, and here in this thread you're saying that the only reason why Ph.D.'s want to bar Master's-level psychologists is to eliminate competition.  Sounds like a contradiction to me.  Either you believe the extra years of training make a difference or you don't.

    quote:

    ORIGINAL: sharainks

    Master's level psychologists are still in the majority in KS.  Why do PhD level people fight it?  It makes the job field far more competitive.  If a select group can close the requirements then they have almost unlimited ability to move from job to job.  Add a few hundred or thousand more and that changes.

    (in reply to sharainks)
    Profile   Post #: 32
    RE: Convincing the Pyschologist - 6/3/2006 6:48:48 PM   
    jezabelKH


    Posts: 663
    Joined: 5/21/2006
    Status: offline     		Change Therapists to one who is kink friendly

    jezabel{KH}
    just simply a slave
    Property Of Master Ken

    (in reply to collegebeauty)
    Profile   Post #: 33
    RE: Convincing the Pyschologist - 6/5/2006 7:29:32 AM   
    HisTicia


    Posts: 203
    Joined: 5/31/2006
    Status: offline     		Please take this advice... RUN.
     
    I mean that in the nicest and most helpful way possible.  I was in your same position earlier this year.  I actually had a "friend" that was trying to get me put in a hospital..and changed from being who I am.  He actually convinced me to go to a therapist..and went to the office with me.  While I was in the back.. he told the front desk I was a danger to myself... he thought this because of my lifestyle.  I made the mistake of telling the therapist why I was there.  That was a HUGE mistake.  She was convinced I was in it because of past abuse.. or my rape...or because I didn't think anyone would love me any other way.  This was a horrible time for me... because.. I almost thought they were right.. I mean..if someone tells you something long enough..you begin to believe it.  I let them have the control they shouldn't have had.  When I hit the bottom of it..I was in hiding and the only thing left for me.. was a blade on a wrist..that was my choice.  I am grateful I woke up before that happened..but you have to realize..that their job is to get in your head..and analize everything you want.. or do.  Mine became tainted..and I couldn't use her for the therapy I probably did need from the other things in my life. 
     
    I had to quit going..and I took my life back.  I understand you have to go to who is in your insurance network..totally..but..if you need therapy.. please.. at least switch to another one..and don't mention this part of your life to them.  I mean.. do you actually think anything you find for them to read will change their mind?  Please think of the logic of that a bit..and know.. the chances are slim to none.  At least you have some choices still left..and maybe even after a few sessions.. you can get to know a new one.. maybe feel them out a bit.. see what reactions you get to things..then if it is that important to be brought up.. you can.  You are a lot like me..and your options are limited.  I didn't have insurance..and had to go to a public one..now I can't go to any in the same office because of an open file.  So.. I have no one to talk to about anything I really need to. 
     
    Just be careful..and be safe.  I wish you the best of luck.

    _____________________________

    All my soul follows you, love encircles you and I live in being yours. ~Browning

    Believe nothing just because someone else believes it. Believe only what you yourself test and judge to be true. ~Buddha


    (in reply to HollyS)
    Profile   Post #: 34
    RE: Convincing the Pyschologist - 6/7/2006 3:51:23 PM   
    OsideGirl


    Posts: 14441
    Joined: 7/1/2005
    From: United States
    Status: offline
    quote:

    ORIGINAL: angelface183

    wouldn't it be easier to find a therapist who is already educated about alternative lifestyles than to have to educate your therapist?


    DSM had listed SadoMasochism as a mental disorder for years. For some therapists, it won't matter that the newest version says that it's not necessarily a mental health issue.

    I don't know the age of your therapist, but you may be better off finding one that is somewhat young, and not so set in the old ways.

    That said.....I see a lot of people that are into D/s BDSM where it is a direct connection to some sort of mental disorder, past disturbance or issue. So, even if you find a kink aware professional be prepared to answer a lot of questions about your motivations into this life.

    < Message edited by OsideGirl -- 6/7/2006 3:56:11 PM >

    _____________________________

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    The Accelerated Velocity of Terminological Inexactitude

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    Profile   Post #: 35
    RE: Convincing the Pyschologist - 6/7/2006 8:47:29 PM   
    diamonddreamlove


    Posts: 770
    Joined: 5/19/2006
    Status: offline     		Psychologist with 30 hours grad hours were grandfathered in as psychologists in Missouri several years back.  My Masters program required 60 so who is better qualified.  I also attend continueing ed which most do not so is the individual therapist not just their title that is important. 

    Yes many well meaning friends think we are all sick because of our interests,  wonder if there should be something in the DSM about folks that are vanilla and not taking "risks" as we supposedly are all doing


    (in reply to OsideGirl)
    Profile   Post #: 36
    RE: Convincing the Pyschologist - 6/7/2006 9:53:07 PM   
    Estring


    Posts: 3314
    Joined: 1/1/2004
    Status: offline     		How is submissiveness a mental disorder? Wouldn't that make dominance one as well? 

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    Profile   Post #: 37
    RE: Convincing the Pyschologist - 6/7/2006 9:54:20 PM   
    Lordandmaster


    Posts: 10943
    Joined: 6/22/2004
    Status: offline     		Yes, exactly.

    quote:

    ORIGINAL: Estring

    Wouldn't that make dominance one as well? 

    (in reply to Estring)
    Profile   Post #: 38
    RE: Convincing the Pyschologist - 6/7/2006 10:22:22 PM   
    amayos


    Posts: 1553
    Joined: 6/2/2004
    From: New England
    Status: offline
    quote:

    ORIGINAL: collegebeauty

    I recently started therapy with a pscyhologist who is most definately not a Kink Aware Professional.  He is concerned that my submissiveness may be a mental health problem.  I've been submissive for years, ever since I found out that such a thing existed, and when I'm in that role, I feel totally comfortable and at peace.  Unfortunately, I'm having a hard time finding good rescources that I can refer him to about  the fact that BDSM is not a  mental disorder.  I've already checked out the following:

    CastleRealm
    APEX
    National Coalition for Sexual Freedom
    Society for Human Sexuality

    Does anyone else have ideas of places to refer a medical professional to for more information?  Please help!

    Beauty



    It is my understanding the DSM no longer considers BDSM practice as necessarily pathological or the sign of immediate paraphilia. Surely your psychologist should be aware of this, outside of the fact that, at least in theory, he should be a little more familiar with the behavioral dynamics of this form of human interaction.

    A psychologist's infinite environment is the mind. Personally, I could not help but feel quite skeptical of this one's skill and wisdom when displaying such obvious ignorance.



    < Message edited by amayos -- 6/7/2006 10:29:47 PM >

    (in reply to collegebeauty)
    Profile   Post #: 39
    RE: Convincing the Pyschologist - 6/7/2006 10:52:58 PM   
    Vendaval


    Posts: 10297
    Joined: 1/15/2005
    Status: offline     		From Wikipedia
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diagnostic_and_Statistical_Manual_of_Mental_Disorders
     
    And the codes
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DSM-IV_Codes
     
    From Behave Net Clinical Capsule,
    APA Diagnostic Classification
    DSM-IV-TR
     
    http://www.behavenet.com/capsules/disorders/dsm4TRclassification.htm#Sexual

     
     
    From All Psych Online
    http://allpsych.com/disorders/paraphilias/index.html
    Paraphilias and Sexual Disorders
    Exhibitionism, Fetishism, Frotteurism, Pedophilia, Sexual Masochism, 
    Sexual Sadism, Transvestic Fetishism, Voyeurism
     
    Sexual Disorders and Dysfunctions
    http://allpsych.com/disorders/sexual/index.html

    Dyspareunia, Female Orgasmic Disorder,Female Sexual Arousal Disorder
    Gender Identity Disorder, Hypoactive Sexual Desire Disorder, Male Erectile Disorder,
    Male Orgasmic Disorder, Premature Ejaculation, Sexual Aversion Disorder,
    Vaginismus
     
     
     
     

    < Message edited by Vendaval -- 6/7/2006 11:02:05 PM >

    _____________________________

    "Beware, the woods at night, beware the lunar light.
    So in this gray haze we'll be meating again, and on that
    great day, I will tease you all the same."
    "WOLF MOON", OCTOBER RUST, TYPE O NEGATIVE


    http://KinkMeet.co.uk

    (in reply to amayos)
    Profile   Post #: 40
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