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RE: Agnosticism - 11/29/2011 7:19:08 AM   
pyroaquatic


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From: Pyroaquatica
Status: offline 		Quantum Mechanics states that God exists and does not exist at the same time.

The hilarity of this is the absurd amount of belief structure build on the premise of words.

The Scientific Method is an amazing tool to use. Like everything in this universe our inability to comprehend the universe accurately is quite limited so all of these amazing things are Theories. A Belief Structure of checks and balances regulates and governs behavior of the participants of the belief and adds zeal, zest.

The sadness comes when belief structures screw with each other indefinitely espousing theory as fact.

Whatever happens will happen...

The Existence of God means nothing if a mutant form of xenophobia strikes and daemonizing accusations fly abound. If you are ethical and moral and benefit to the development/evolution of humanity then what difference does it make if God exists?

I try to be nice, polite, entertaining... and all sorts of life inspiring things that invigorate people. There is my purpose, bereft of any forethought of belief.

< Message edited by pyroaquatic -- 11/29/2011 7:20:24 AM >

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RE: Agnosticism - 11/29/2011 7:24:40 AM   
Moonhead


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quote:

ORIGINAL: pyroaquatic
Quantum Mechanics states that God exists and does not exist at the same time.

No it doesn't. It says that physical processes remain indeterminate until they're observed. It doesn't say a word about ceiling cat, who most of whose believers hold that He isn't part of the physical universe on any level.

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Profile   Post #: 162
RE: Agnosticism - 11/29/2011 7:35:32 AM   
Zonie63


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From: The Old Pueblo
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quote:

ORIGINAL: SpanishMatMaster

Zonie: "grandiose"? Fuck you.


Well, there's no call for that kind of language. We're just having a discussion.

quote:


  • I have shown how you cannot claim with absolute certainty that 2+2=4 and why. A good resume was already in the posting you quoted, but you decided to argue against the conclusions without showing any step or premise being false or invalid.


Well, I think you can claim with more certainty regarding 2+2=4 than being able to prove a negative. That's the main difference that you don't seem able to grasp.

quote:


  • I can show you scenarios where Santa Claus exists and you could not disprove it without Occam's Razor. You can imagine them yourself, if for a change you decided that you want to think a bit.


    • Well, sure, I could do the same thing. And I am thinking about this. I can tell the difference between statements which can be proven versus those which can not be proven. Apparently, you're unable to tell the difference, and that's why we disagree on this.

    quote:


  • "Nobody has ever seen an elf"? Fuck you. Nobody has ever seen God. Since when was that a prove of inexistence? Or is it only when you like it?


    • Some people have claimed to communicate with God, so that leaves us with a measure of doubt.

    quote:


  • I have shown you how you cannot claim with absolute certainty that you have a nose - and you accepted it, but you change your claims like a leave on the Autum wind.
    quote:

    ORIGINAL: Zonie63
    There is not enough information to determine whether or not I actually have a nose. You've precluded the possibility of me being able to trust my own eyes when I look in the mirror and see that I have a nose.
    Post #203 in the game. This was the moment in which you were more near the truth. Sad, that you decided to withdraw.


    The problem there is that you seemed to take issue with my qualification that I assume that I have a nose for day-to-day activities. We seemed to reach an accord at that point, but then you had to start asking "But why day-to-day activities" or something to that effect. This told me that merely assuming my practical reality is not enough for you, implying that there had to be absolute certainty. This is where you lost me. You couldn't just accept a reasonable doubt about reality and end it. You kept insisting on a final answer to encompass all situations, and this is where I disagree with your entire position.

    Essentially, you're proving here that positive atheism is not unlike a religion. You have to believe that there is no God, and anyone who doesn't share that belief must be a heretic in your eyes - somebody to scorn and say "Fuck you" to. That's what religious zealots do. Since I'm not a religious zealot, I don't get all upset and angry over these things.

    If you can't have a conversation about deeper subjects without becoming unglued, then perhaps you shouldn't even try.

    quote:


    • I have shown you the difference between a simple claim and a claim of absolute certainty. But you decide to ignore it.


    • I don't recall ignoring that, and in fact, that's the main bone of contention we have right now.

    If you're saying that you're as certain about a negative ("there is no god") as you are about a provable claim ("2+2=4"), then to you, there doesn't seem to be any difference at all.

    quote:


  • And I can prove that God does not exist, in three different ways. I don't need technology for that, only reason, the definitions and a clear mind. Of course, as all my assertions, it is with no claim of absolute certainty. But beyond reasonable doubt. However you are so certain that I can, t that you have not even asked me about them, you simply suppose that demostration you don't know are wrong and insult me on that basis.Fuck you. If you do not have the guts to return to the game, this conversation is over.

    Bye. You may have the last word if you are so fond of it as Kirata.


    • When did I ever insult you?

    And no, you can't prove that God doesn't exist, unless you can demonstrate the ability to visit and explore every star system in the galaxy (and even then, that wouldn't be enough). We can visit the North Pole and explore our own planet sufficiently to reasonably confirm the absence of any elves or Santa Claus, but when we're talking about "god" and its myriad interpretations, then there's no way that any reasonable person can express certainty.

    (in reply to SpanishMatMaster)
    Profile   Post #: 163
    RE: Agnosticism - 11/29/2011 8:25:12 AM   
    pyroaquatic


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    From: Pyroaquatica
    Status: offline
    quote:

    ORIGINAL: Moonhead


    quote:

    ORIGINAL: pyroaquatic
    Quantum Mechanics states that God exists and does not exist at the same time.

    No it doesn't. It says that physical processes remain indeterminate until they're observed. It doesn't say a word about ceiling cat, who most of whose believers hold that He isn't part of the physical universe on any level.


    Sir Moonhead is your head on straight?

    There is no absolute determination in that quote as far as I know.

    The possibility of a particle being part of an incomplete God yet constructed is also a possibility. Advanced Science quite often looks like Miracles.

    I would imagine at the near end of this possible giant equation we would have the last place holder and the summation of the equation would be objectively understood.

    As far as I am concerned I am inherently subject within All of this. The span of the Kosmos is far greater than mine so I have been genetically programed to genetically program. Improvements have been made with memetics and insuring survival of future code.


    _____________________________

    You are what your deep, driving desire is.
    As your desire is, so is your will.
    As your will is, so is your deed.
    As your deed is, so is your destiny.
    -Brihadaranyaka Upanishad IV.4.5

    (in reply to Moonhead)
    Profile   Post #: 164
    RE: Agnosticism - 11/29/2011 8:28:17 AM   
    Zonie63


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    quote:

    ORIGINAL: GotSteel

    quote:

    ORIGINAL: Zonie63
    Regardless of how one interprets the statement, I would wonder why would one make such a statement to begin with.

    Have you heard of the Asch conformity experiments?


    I think I've heard of this before. But how would this relate to someone actively stating that "there is no God"?



    quote:

    ORIGINAL: GotSteel

    When someone says that God doesn't exist are you under the impression that they are talking about the sum total of all physical laws in the universe and not some kind of actual "being"?


    Over the course of my life, I've come to realize that people view concepts of "God" in different ways, so I try to break it down to the bare bones of "what" exactly is being claimed to exist or not exist. "God" is too general of a term to make any assumptions about.

    Now, if someone was to pore through ancient writings and find contradictions and things which defy our known physical laws, then one could claim that those writings might be false. If someone said that there was no known way possible for Moses to part the Red Sea, I would have no problem with that. If someone said Jesus never walked on the water, I would be cool with that, too. If someone said that Bible (or the Quran, Upanishads, Bhagavad Gita, etc.) were all a bunch of myths and concocted fairy tales, I would say "Yeah, you're probably right."

    So, I could deal with specific claims and their skeptical refutation, but to say that "there is no god" seems to be stepping beyond that and going more into a more nebulous concept. I would probably be more inclined to say that whatever concepts and perceptions human beings have developed about "God" are most likely products of a vivid imagination. Humans love to ponder over unknowable subjects and come up with their own set of ideas and beliefs in the process. That hasn't always been a bad thing; there's good and bad in everything, including religion (and politics, for that matter).

    But just because I know that humans tend to make up stuff out of thin air, it doesn't mean I would have any knowledge of what goes on beyond this Earth. That's what I try to separate in my own mind, since I can't draw any conclusions based solely on a reaction to human conceptions of religion and the supernatural, however ostensibly false they appear to be.

    (in reply to GotSteel)
    Profile   Post #: 165
    RE: Agnosticism - 11/29/2011 8:36:48 AM   
    Zonie63


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    Status: offline
    quote:

    ORIGINAL: pyroaquatic

    Quantum Mechanics states that God exists and does not exist at the same time.

    The hilarity of this is the absurd amount of belief structure build on the premise of words.

    The Scientific Method is an amazing tool to use. Like everything in this universe our inability to comprehend the universe accurately is quite limited so all of these amazing things are Theories. A Belief Structure of checks and balances regulates and governs behavior of the participants of the belief and adds zeal, zest.

    The sadness comes when belief structures screw with each other indefinitely espousing theory as fact.

    Whatever happens will happen...

    The Existence of God means nothing if a mutant form of xenophobia strikes and daemonizing accusations fly abound. If you are ethical and moral and benefit to the development/evolution of humanity then what difference does it make if God exists?

    I try to be nice, polite, entertaining... and all sorts of life inspiring things that invigorate people. There is my purpose, bereft of any forethought of belief.


    This probably reflects my beliefs as well. I like taking a more detached view on these things, as I don't really have a dog in this fight. I have nothing to prove here, since on this topic, there is nothing that can be proven either way.

    Quantum Mechanics is pretty mind-boggling at times. Ever see this video? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XjsgoXvnStY There's actually a whole series of videos related to this, but it's rather interesting to ponder.

    (in reply to pyroaquatic)
    Profile   Post #: 166
    RE: Agnosticism - 11/29/2011 8:59:21 AM   
    SpanishMatMaster


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    quote:

    ORIGINAL: pyroaquatic
    Quantum Mechanics states that God exists and does not exist at the same time.
    The hilarity of this is the absurd amount of belief structure build on the premise of words.
    The Scientific Method is an amazing tool to use. Like everything in this universe our inability to comprehend the universe accurately is quite limited so all of these amazing things are Theories. A Belief Structure of checks and balances regulates and governs behavior of the participants of the belief and adds zeal, zest.
    The sadness comes when belief structures screw with each other indefinitely espousing theory as fact.
    Whatever happens will happen...
    The Existence of God means nothing if a mutant form of xenophobia strikes and daemonizing accusations fly abound. If you are ethical and moral and benefit to the development/evolution of humanity then what difference does it make if God exists?
    I try to be nice, polite, entertaining... and all sorts of life inspiring things that invigorate people. There is my purpose, bereft of any forethought of belief.


    Your message is really nice, pyroaquatic. Really.

    Only one commend, off-topic: in science, a theory can be a fact as well.

    But well, I think you may agree with me that, in the grand schema of things, the answer about the existence of God is actually an answer about an irrelevant question. Atheism and theism are pretty irrelevant. The important thing, as you say, is behaviour.

    Have a nice day. Thank you for bringing fresh air to the thread.


    < Message edited by SpanishMatMaster -- 11/29/2011 9:00:59 AM >

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    Profile   Post #: 167
    RE: Agnosticism - 11/29/2011 12:39:55 PM   
    GotSteel


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    quote:

    ORIGINAL: Zonie63
    We can visit the North Pole and explore our own planet sufficiently to reasonably confirm the absence of any elves or Santa Claus, but when we're talking about "god" and its myriad interpretations, then there's no way that any reasonable person can express certainty.


    You've talked about the checking the North Pole in reference to Santa a couple of times now but is that what you actually did?

    I used to believe in Santa like most of you probably did. When I got a little older and became skeptical I figured out a test for Santa Claus like most of you probably did. So here's the question, did anybody test for Santa by pouring over aerial photos or mounting an expedition to the North Pole or did you come up with a way of testing for Santa where you didn't even have to leave your living room?

    (in reply to Zonie63)
    Profile   Post #: 168
    RE: Agnosticism - 11/29/2011 1:06:50 PM   
    Moonhead


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    quote:

    ORIGINAL: pyroaquatic

    quote:

    ORIGINAL: Moonhead


    quote:

    ORIGINAL: pyroaquatic
    Quantum Mechanics states that God exists and does not exist at the same time.

    No it doesn't. It says that physical processes remain indeterminate until they're observed. It doesn't say a word about ceiling cat, who most of whose believers hold that He isn't part of the physical universe on any level.


    Sir Moonhead is your head on straight?

    There is no absolute determination in that quote as far as I know.

    The possibility of a particle being part of an incomplete God yet constructed is also a possibility. Advanced Science quite often looks like Miracles.

    I would imagine at the near end of this possible giant equation we would have the last place holder and the summation of the equation would be objectively understood.

    As far as I am concerned I am inherently subject within All of this. The span of the Kosmos is far greater than mine so I have been genetically programed to genetically program. Improvements have been made with memetics and insuring survival of future code.


    God is not quantifiable. (That's a big part of His job description, in fact.) You start bringing Him into discussions about physics (quantum or otherwise), and you might as well give up trying tio understand anything and start rolling twenty sided dice instead.
    On the other hand if the universe isn't quantifiable, you have no physics, so this whole "reality is God's body/corpse" talk is just a pointless frippery. It achieves nothing, has no bearing on anything, and just serves to reassure a few physicists who have a Bible (or Koran, or Torah) stuffed so far up their arse that they can taste it.

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    RE: Agnosticism - 11/29/2011 1:39:33 PM   
    willbeurdaddy


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    quote:

    ORIGINAL: pyroaquatic

    Quantum Mechanics states that God exists and does not exist at the same time.



    Uhhhh, want to point me to any physics book that says that? If youre trying to extrapolate quantum wave functions to include "God", thats your own doing, not any physicists that I have read.

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    RE: Agnosticism - 11/29/2011 1:42:04 PM   
    Moonhead


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    Status: offline     		Great. Now I've got somebody whose lips move when they read agreeing with me.



    _____________________________

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    Profile   Post #: 171
    RE: Agnosticism - 11/29/2011 2:20:31 PM   
    Kirata


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    quote:

    ORIGINAL: Zonie63
    quote:

  • I have shown you the difference between a simple claim and a claim of absolute certainty. But you decide to ignore it.

    • I don't recall ignoring that, and in fact, that's the main bone of contention we have right now.

    Granting your kind choice of words, there isn't much basis for "contention". He's just batshit. To be certain means to be without doubt. Unqualified. Not "reasonable doubt" or any other nonsense. Without doubt, period. "Absolute certainty" is just a figure of speech. The appearance of there being two rabbits on the pedestal in front of the man with the top-hat is an illusion. There is only one.

    K.



    < Message edited by Kirata -- 11/29/2011 2:53:54 PM >

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    RE: Agnosticism - 11/29/2011 3:00:59 PM   
    Kirata


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    quote:

    ORIGINAL: GotSteel

    I used to believe in Santa like most of you probably did. When I got a little older and became skeptical I figured out a test for Santa Claus like most of you probably did. So here's the question...

    Here's the real question...

    What test did you figure out for God that allows you to say "there is no God" in the same sense as "there is no Santa Claus"?

    K.


    < Message edited by Kirata -- 11/29/2011 3:11:45 PM >

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    Profile   Post #: 173
    RE: Agnosticism - 11/29/2011 4:53:08 PM   
    webcamchastity


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    Status: offline     		It is 100% true that spanish fly is a massive cock who wants everyone to play by his rules and then breaks them at every turn

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    Profile   Post #: 174
    RE: Agnosticism - 11/29/2011 4:54:48 PM   
    Kirata


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    quote:

    ORIGINAL: webcamchastity

    It is 100% true that spanish fly is a massive cock who wants everyone to play by his rules and then breaks them at every turn

    You're certain?

    K.

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    Profile   Post #: 175
    RE: Agnosticism - 11/29/2011 4:55:59 PM   
    webcamchastity


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    Status: offline     		99.9999999999999999999%

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    Profile   Post #: 176
    RE: Agnosticism - 11/29/2011 4:56:04 PM   
    tazzygirl


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    Status: offline     		I do believe its been tested on these boards, Master Kirata.. and proven a true theory.

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    Profile   Post #: 177
    RE: Agnosticism - 11/29/2011 5:01:57 PM   
    Kirata


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    quote:

    ORIGINAL: webcamchastity

    99.9999999999999999999%

    Well, so, okay, you're pretty damn sure. But you're not 100% without doubt. I gotta agree. I think the "massive cock" bit is probably questionable.

    K.

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    Profile   Post #: 178
    RE: Agnosticism - 11/29/2011 5:03:06 PM   
    Kirata


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    quote:

    ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

    I do believe its been tested on these boards, Master Kirata.. and proven a true theory.

    Are you certain?

    K.

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    Profile   Post #: 179
    RE: Agnosticism - 11/29/2011 5:04:05 PM   
    tazzygirl


    Posts: 37833
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    Status: offline     		Only as certain as the evidence so far provided. But we have a limited knowledge beyond the words he posts here.

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    Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
    If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

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