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ORIGINAL: Rochsub2009

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ORIGINAL: Ishtarr

I agree with this. Most of the suggestions made on this thread, so far, involve forcing others to participate in a person's kink.

But that's the very nature of humiliation play.  It's not very humiliating if only the two participants see it.  For example, most people who practice "forced feminization" do so by making the male go out in public in female garments or behaving in ways that would be viewed as female.

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ORIGINAL: Rochsub2009

I understand that religion is a touchy subject.  But some of you seem to be forgetting the very nature of humiliation play. 

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ORIGINAL: Rochsub2009

Forget about your personal feelings on the ethics of the OP's kink.  How would YOU recommend they exercise that kink without exposing anyone else to it?  I don't think his slave would feel humiliated if she just had to do it in front of him.  And obviously, humiliation is their kink.  See the problem?

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ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady
Again, if the OP wanted to play with Jewish humiliation, would you suggest she wear a yellow Star of David with "Juden" printed boldly on the front, or would that be in poor taste to do in public?

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ORIGINAL: LaTigresse

I think it is because we (some of we anyway), regardless of individual views now, see religioun as something sacred. Even if we don't THINK we believe in it, there is that underlying, maybe even subconscious, fear that if we desecrate religioun we might go to hell. Like it's okay to not exactly believe but to purposely shit on the belief, is crossing that line. Just in case we are wrong in our disbelief.

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ORIGINAL: LaTigresse

I am not religious..........far from it. I also have no problem at all, when it comes up in discussion, expressing my point of view on the subject. But I won't ridicule others for their religious beliefs (at least not to their face......) and I won't intentionally make people who didn't bring the subject up, uncomfortable with my point of view.

It's kinda like dicks. Personally I think their are pretty ugly and funny looking. But I don't run around, getting in the face of every guy I see, telling him my point of view of dicks. Now if he puts it out there for all and sundry to see, making it a nearly unavoidable topic, I am probably going to voice my point of view on the topic and chances are, he won't like it. But he is the one that made it a topic of conversation.

As far as religious beliefs and mocking I guess I can see two sides to the coin. If I can walk around handing out bibles, trying to save people, getting in peoples faces and telling them, in essence they will go to hell if they don't start believing like I do, people also have equal right to mock and ridicule my beliefs. Both are equally offensive. It's just that one is considered 'decent' and acceptable and the other isn't.

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You'd just think you saw a woman wearing a "WWJD?" shirt.  Or you'd think you saw a woman wearing a cross necklace.

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Or you'd think that another one of those religious people tried to get you saved.

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ORIGINAL: lizi
.to purposely shit on something of great value to another makes me feel like, well, shit.

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ORIGINAL: Ishtarr

My personal ethics state that humiliating another person by swarming them with Jesus stuff is out of line. I don't care if it's done because of kink or faith. Many of the examples given on this thread would have been offensive to me even if done by a religious person.

There where many examples you gave that aren't intruding into other people's lives, like praying before eating, carrying a Bible or wearing a religious T-shirt. However, actively forcing others to partake by approaching them with questions and statements that the bystander very well may find humiliating, inconvenient, or annoying is just out of line.

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ORIGINAL: Rochsub2009
<snip>
To me, that is the key to good humiliation play.  The person being humiliated feels bad, but those who are nearby are actually unaware of what's going on, or simply don't care.

Human beings have an over-inflated sense of their own importance.  Many times, a person feels humiliated because they think all eyes are on them.  But the reality is that most people aren't even paying attention to them.  And a good Dom/Domme should be able to formulate a scene that give their sub the humiliation they crave, and yet doesn't really impact the innocent bystanders.  It may take a little creative thinking, but it can be done.  And it doesn't have to happen exclusively in a BDSM dungeon.

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ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady

..................... is ok to mock.

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ORIGINAL: lizi

I don't think it's over-inflated to wonder if these things are indeed as invisible as you think they are. On threads of making a sub not wear panties people get testy over the possibility of having nude genitals flash the unsuspecting. The feeling seems to be if there is a possibility of kink overflow onto people who have not previously agreed to it that it's not ok.

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ORIGINAL: Rochsub2009

To me, a more analogous example would be to make her wear a star of David around her neck.  Or to wear a yarmulke (sp?) out in public during Passover.  That would be very normal behavior for some Jewish people, so it would become virtually invisible.  But the OP's slave would feel humiliated.

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To me, the line would be in doing things that immediately stand out from the norm, or that insult the religion (like making her wear a shirt with a Star of David on one side, and a swastika on the other).  Everyone would immediately notice that, and it would be offensive to most people.  But the other examples likely wouldn't be noticed at all (IMO).

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Human beings have an over-inflated sense of their own importance.  Many times, a person feels humiliated because they think all eyes are on them.  But the reality is that most people aren't even paying attention to them.  And a good Dom/Domme should be able to formulate a scene that give their sub the humiliation they crave, and yet doesn't really impact the innocent bystanders.  It may take a little creative thinking, but it can be done.  And it doesn't have to happen exclusively in a BDSM dungeon.

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ORIGINAL: Rochsub2009

I'm sure that a Jehovah's Witness has knocked on your door before. 

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ORIGINAL: Rochsub2009

The only area where I differ is that I tried to focus on behaviors that we see on a daily basis anyway, so my hope was that they could be executed invisibly.

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ORIGINAL: Rochsub2009

I understand.  This thread was bound to be a potentially volatile one.  We all know that threads that insinuate involving the non-consensual public always become powder kegs. They are usually the most highly debated threads on the board.  But this one also added religion.  That combination was bound to turn into a nuclear explosion. 

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ORIGINAL: Rochsub2009

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ORIGINAL: Ishtarr

My personal ethics state that humiliating another person by swarming them with Jesus stuff is out of line. I don't care if it's done because of kink or faith. Many of the examples given on this thread would have been offensive to me even if done by a religious person.

There where many examples you gave that aren't intruding into other people's lives, like praying before eating, carrying a Bible or wearing a religious T-shirt. However, actively forcing others to partake by approaching them with questions and statements that the bystander very well may find humiliating, inconvenient, or annoying is just out of line.

And what happens when the bystander she asks about having been saved wants to have a conversation about this? Then what? Because believe it or not, that DOES happen. Everyone doesn't just rudely tell the fundamentalists to fuck off and walk away. What happens when they want to discuss religion? Does she continue her game or does she fess up that she was just playing a kinky sex game?
I agree with your sentiment.  The only area where I differ is that I tried to focus on behaviors that we see on a daily basis anyway, so my hope was that they could be executed invisibly.

I completely understand your concerns about annoying bystanders with proselytizing.  However, that is something that happens anyway.  I'm sure that a Jehovah's Witness has knocked on your door before.  But I respect your desire to not add to that behavior.

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ORIGINAL: LaTigresse

Here is the dealio as I see it.

I don't really give a damn what anyone outside of my control mocks. I cannot control it, I am not responsible for it. But there is the key as I see it.

If I mock something then I need to take responsibility/ownership of my words/actions and accept WHATEVER reactions I get from that. If it alienates/hurts/angers people I love/respect/like/wanna hang with......that's something I've got to live with. I accept that.

Freedom of speech/expression does come with a cost. All I suggest to anyone is that they think it through and be aware of, and willing to pay, the potential price. And don't come whining to me when they didn't think it through and are now paying.

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ORIGINAL: kalikshama

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You'd just think you saw a woman wearing a "WWJD?" shirt.  Or you'd think you saw a woman wearing a cross necklace.

I have no objection to this.

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Or you'd think that another one of those religious people tried to get you saved.

I object to both real and fake proselytizing.

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ORIGINAL: Ishtarr

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ORIGINAL: Rochsub2009

The only area where I differ is that I tried to focus on behaviors that we see on a daily basis anyway, so my hope was that they could be executed invisibly.

What you're basically doing is stating that because one group already does something inappropriate, it's okay for kinksters to do the same inappropriate thing to get their rocks off, because nobody would notice that they're doing it for kink.
Following that logic, it would be okay for kinksters with rape fantasies to actually rape women, because there are already non-kinky men who do the same, and nobody would really noticed that the kinksters are doing it for kink.

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ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady



Yes, freedom of speech comes with a cost. But here is where I see the difference. Hypothetically, you are in a store and you a man verbally assaulting his partner. She is visably upset and embarassed. Do you walk by? What if he took a swing at her? Do you still walk by? What if you see someone openly being discriminated against for their sexuality or ethnicity? Do you walk away because those people aren't "under your control?"

I know there are a good number of people here who would do just that. Walk away. I openly and honestly admit that I wouldn't. Look at the whole Penn State thing. People are really pissed off because Joe Paterno did nothing but tell his superiors. Essentially, it was "out of his control," so he didn't take that extra step. Yes, it is a different situation, but it is all about having the balls to speak up when something is inherently wrong.

It is ok to say that the Westboro Church shouldn't be able to protest and mock soldier's funerals (and make no mistake, their behavior is a form of mockery), but it isn't ok to say people shouldn't mock Christianity on the whole.

There are more than enough examples throughout history where people believing it wasn't "under their control" (a PC way of saying, "not my business") met with dire circumstances. Penn State is one example. The Civil Rights movement was another, since so many people just didn't want to stand up for the change, even though they believed in it.

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ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady

The point is that around here, people can openly talk about being a Pagan, Agnostic, or Atheist, and that's fine. Mention you are Christian and you will be called mentally ill, stupid and any other number of offensive things. Mind you I didn't say "preaching your Christian beliefs," just mentioning what you belief. Not everyone does it, but more than enough.

So you know what? Yes, I find it offensive. I find it to be a self centered disrespect of other people's beliefs. I DO believe that as human beings, we should draw a line in the sand between something that is just kinky behavior and something that is offensive or dangerous. I DO believe that this whole "I am not going to be judgemental of other people's kinks" is a big fucking cop out by people who don't have the balls to stand up for what they believe in. Because there are a good number of respectable people here who DO have the balls to draw that line and not worry that the "rep" might be adversely affected by them saying so.