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Some Thoughts on extreme public play -- Choking and Dro... - 5/29/2006 10:45:26 AM   
Emperor1956


Posts: 2370
Joined: 11/7/2005
Status: offline 		I witnessed something this weekend that has troubled Me, and I thought I'd post a note about it and catch the wisdom of the group (I have been told 'of course, you are an extrovert and you can't figure out what you are thinking until you hear it from someone else'.  Smart woman, there.)

My girl and I went to a public play party Saturday night at one of the area's best known play spaces.  Because this is IML weekend, there were a ton of people in town, and the party was quite large.  It was totally open -- if you had an ID and would sign the club's waiver, you were in. 

A couple came in to play about 11:30 pm.  I didn't know them, but my girl did, having seen them play before.  This couple is into breath deprivation by choking, hanging and drowning.  My girl had seen the Dom (male) drown the sub (female) in a large tub at a previous party.  She has also seen the Dom hang the sub until the sub went unconcious.  My girl and I were sitting to one side of the play space, and the scenes I am going to describe took place about 10 yards from us, and there were people in between, so My narrative is as I saw / heard things, not a "verbatim" video of the event.  Also, I was not really consumed by their scene (although many in the space, including My girl, were.)

This evening, they began with the Dom choking the sub, first with his hands, and then with a rope or cord.  They progressed slowly and deliberately, with her being very verbal and physical, pushing him away, clawing at his hands, etc.  This was not a quick, or quiet scene.  I would estimate that he choked and released her about 10 times over an hour, bringing her closer and closer to unconciousness.  There were periods where he held her up (so it appeared) and she regained breath.  Then he'd choke her again, while she yelled, or cursed, or gasped and sputtered.  Then he put her on her hands and knees and forced her head into a bowl of water (which I think, but can't swear, had ice cubes in it).  He had her gasping and sputtering, and near to blacking out.  We left at 1 am, and she was still in the process of being drowned.  We did not see her lose conciousness, but my girl tells Me that she has seen this play before by this couple, and it ends with the girl out cold.

My girl muttered at one point "it is like watching a train wreck.  You can't look away, even if you want to."  I wasn't compelled to look, although I admit some fascination and a lot of revulsion when I did watch.  I was surprised the DMs let this scene go on.  I would have not allowed it, I think, had I been one of the persons in charge.  I have a raft of reasons.  I was NOT concerned about the consent issue, as this appeared to be fully consensual, and as I say the couple is apparently well known in our local scene for this play.  I think I come down to this:  If (and I fear, when) the girl doesn't revive, I don't want to be in the room.  I would stop the scene to avoid being a nonconsenual witness to her suicide/murder.  I don't want to be interviewed by the police and crime scene investigators.  I don't want that scene imprinted in My brain.

I have a ton of other concerns, and yes, I'm intelligent enough to be conflicted on imposing those concerns.  For example, we don't usually allow people to commit suicide in front of us.  And this is, as best as I can tell, a long, slow death wish being fulfilled.  On the other hand, I don't go around screaming "STOP HER  STOP HER" when a Domme friend lights up a cigarette in My presence.  My friend knows the risks of smoking, and I assume she's made a decision.  Why can I not assume the aphyxiated submissive also made that informed decision? 

For another example, the crowd had many "newbies" that night.  I thought then, and I think now "Should we have a disclaimer somewhere?  What would it say?  "DON'T TRY THIS....EVER"?  Am I responsible to educate those that are interested/brave enough to attend a play party for the first time what is 'standard' kink, what is 'edgy' and what is way out there?  I should add that throughout the evening/night there was a male sub involved in a very long, and loud, fisting scene with several participants, some of whom I knew to be very experienced Dommes and Doms.  I didn't think that that scene needed to be curtailed, or explained to the newcomer.

A word on experience:  I am not a blushing flower.  I've been a part of and witnessed extreme fisting, bloodsport, fireplay and similar "edge play" scenes during a long involvement in WIIWD.  While I don't personally engage in breath play, I have used a strategic gag or hand over the mouth to restrict My partner's breath.  I don't think my reaction is "your kink is NOT my kink".  I think I have fundamental issues with this play.  I think it is unethical to allow it in a public play space.  If either model of our ethics rules ("RACK" or "SSC") is applied, I still have issues.

Would you have shut down the suffocation scene?

E.

_____________________________

"When you wake up, Pooh," said Piglet, "what's the first thing you say?"
"What's for breakfast? What do you say, Piglet?"
"I say, I wonder what's going to happen exciting today?"
Pooh nodded thoughtfully.
"It's the same thing," he said.
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RE: Some Thoughts on extreme public play -- Choking and... - 5/29/2006 11:00:36 AM   
snappykappy


Posts: 616
Joined: 3/5/2005
Status: offline 		yep i agree it is a very touchy subject and yes if something did tragically happen and you stood by and did nothing then you are by law an accomplis (sp) to the event and are subject to the whims of the law

this is the same thing as if you are serving alchohol and the person leaves and gets into a wreck and hurts someone or kills them then you are under the same infractions as the person driving the vehicle

if anyone does not believe this then i highly recommend they check with their local law enforcement agency

it really comes down to the term aiding and abetting per the legal eagles

this is just my view take it or leave

(in reply to Emperor1956)
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RE: Some Thoughts on extreme public play -- Choking and... - 5/29/2006 4:25:27 PM   
missturbation


Posts: 8290
Joined: 2/12/2006
From: another planet
Status: offline 		I am a newbie to all this (approx 6 months) so my opinion may not count for much. From my point of view tho as a newbie i would have been scared to death to be watching something like that. Whilst the fisting scene would ahve maybe made me squirm the breath control would have been unwatchable.
In my humble opinion it is definately each to thier own but something so extreme which could result in accidental death should be kept private and not made public or into a public concern.
To possibly involve others in the questions and investigations that would follow such an accidental death is selfish and unwarranted.


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RE: Some Thoughts on extreme public play -- Choking and... - 5/29/2006 7:30:43 PM   
fullofgrace


Posts: 395
Joined: 3/24/2006
From: fl, usa
Status: offline 		personally, i enjoy breath play and being choked, but He is very careful and would never push me to the point of blacking out because i already have problems with dizzy spells and i've had blackouts before. so what we do is very mild. i'd like to explore it more, but not to an extreme.

i DO think that there are some limits that just might not be a good idea to push publicly, including one such as this. but then again, there are many things we do that could lead to death...the question is where to draw the line? if we do draw the line here, then we'll have the breath players complaining that the bloodsport people and the edgeplay people are getting special treatment because their extreme scenes are allowed. there's just so much gray area when it comes to making rules for things like this.

but if i had been there, i think i would not have been able to watch it. despite my interest in breath play and choking, i have always been terrified of passing out or drowning, and extreme things like that just squick me out. i don't think it's safe and i don't think it's right that it's happening in a public place, because it does seem as though it's higher risk than some scenes, but i can see trying to rid the public play forum of certain kinds of play (such as this) becoming a huge problem. i understand why it'd be damn near impossible to just draw the line...but i'm with missturbation...to me, that should be kept private, because there's such a huge chance of really seriously harming or even killing someone, not to mention what kind of legal mess you're involving the viewers in if that were to happen.


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RE: Some Thoughts on extreme public play -- Choking and... - 5/29/2006 10:31:51 PM   
HollyS


Posts: 230
Joined: 1/5/2006
Status: offline 		Hello everyone,

I've been on CM for awhile now but have never posted to the forums.  It would seem that I'm to introduce myself by way of responding to someone else's comments:

<...the question is where to draw the line? if we do draw the line here, then we'll have the breath players complaining that the bloodsport people and the edgeplay people are getting special treatment because their extreme scenes are allowed. there's just so much gray area when it comes to making rules for things like this. >

As someone who's been witness to many forms of edge play, I can't get behind equating them all.  Blood sports, while they may look scary and messy have a very low risk of death inherent in them.  Same with fire play, knives, piercings, and most other things that happen in public spaces.  The only similar types of "play" I can put in the same category as breath control are takedown scenes, where you have the slimmest margin of error before death can occur.  Even heavy medical scenes, fisting, CBT and others can result in maiming rather than death.  The difference is important.

I am proud to say that I'm E's girl.  We were together at the club that night and I watched the breath control couple scene out of the corner of my vision, not moving from our seats but still very aware of the session happening in the middle of the room.  I've seen them at other times and in other clubs...  They are very hard to watch.  I understand that when people are well-trained and consent is in place it can be difficult to challenge the right of anyone to engage in WIITWD.  But even leaving aside RACK or SSC or any other acronym (another discussion entirely), I think it's fair for a businesses to define what's safe for it's continued existance. "High liklihood for accidental death or brain damage" seems a reasonable line for a business to draw for their safety and that of the participants of the club. 

Good to meet everyone.  *smile*

~Holly

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RE: Some Thoughts on extreme public play -- Choking and... - 5/29/2006 10:39:49 PM   
HarryVanWinkle


Posts: 1720
Joined: 5/8/2006
Status: offline 		If this had happened at Desert Dominion and I were DMing, I would have stopped the scene.  If the players had appealed to a Governing Council member and I were over-ruled (which I think would be extremely unlikely) I would have insisted on being relieved as DM.

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RE: Some Thoughts on extreme public play -- Choking and... - 5/29/2006 10:56:02 PM   
fullofgrace


Posts: 395
Joined: 3/24/2006
From: fl, usa
Status: offline 		holly, i really appreciate your post and agree with a lot of what you said - thanks for your input, it was something of an eye-opener :) i hope you'll post more here.

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RE: Some Thoughts on extreme public play -- Choking and... - 5/30/2006 7:43:27 AM   
LuckyAlbatross


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Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline 		If it's not against the club rules and you aren't the DM- you have two options, watch or don't watch.

Specially going to IML, this isn't fluffy bunny spank n tickle play here.

I think it's GOOD for newbies to be exposed- teach them EARLY that when we say "we embrace consensual acts of kink and if it's not on the rules list, then go for it"  that we actually MEAN it.  If they can't take it, or do the adult thing and leave the area, then they shouldn't be at that sort of party.

Are you trained as a DM?  Most good training programs teach you what to look for as REAL danger, what the rules are and when it's ok to intrude.  It's NOT ok to intrude just because something makes your skin crawl or LOOKS dangerous.

I can understand your visceral response, and I applaud you for questioning it rather than simply labeling the whole thing as wrong and abusive.  But we are a culture of kinks- and that includes the not so yummy fuzzy ones.

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RE: Some Thoughts on extreme public play -- Choking and... - 5/30/2006 8:08:22 AM   
CrappyDom


Posts: 1883
Joined: 4/11/2006
From: Sacramento
Status: offline 		Makes them think twice before they say "my only limits are..."!

Personally, I LOVE seeing that sort of play, yes it is hard to watch if you walked a vanilla in off the street they would say the same thing about your average fluffy dom doing a sensual flogging.

The fact they have been doing this for a long time and people have seen them doing it and the woman isn't dead should carry more than a little weight.  I hate the concept of DMs in the formal sense because I think it attracts the worst sort of control freaks desperate for authority but they clearly have licked that problem at that event and it is good to hear.

I WANT to see things that challenge me, that make me think, that push my boundaries.

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RE: Some Thoughts on extreme public play -- Choking and... - 5/30/2006 8:11:50 AM   
Emperor1956


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Joined: 11/7/2005
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quote:

Lucky Albatross said:  If it's not against the club rules and you aren't the DM- you have two options, watch or don't watch.

Specially going to IML, this isn't fluffy bunny spank n tickle play here.

I think it's GOOD for newbies to be exposed- teach them EARLY that when we say "we embrace consensual acts of kink and if it's not on the rules list, then go for it"  that we actually MEAN it.  If they can't take it, or do the adult thing and leave the area, then they shouldn't be at that sort of party.

Are you trained as a DM?  Most good training programs teach you what to look for as REAL danger, what the rules are and when it's ok to intrude.  It's NOT ok to intrude just because something makes your skin crawl or LOOKS dangerous.

I can understand your visceral response, and I applaud you for questioning it rather than simply labeling the whole thing as wrong and abusive.  But we are a culture of kinks- and that includes the not so yummy fuzzy ones.


I'm confused by this reply L.A.  I thought I made it clear in my original post that I was troubled because this seemed to be such extreme play.  I thought that it should be questioned, even though it wasn't.  I was not upset because I was "squicked out" or because the scene was loud and frightening; I was upset because choking a person into unconciousness seems to Me to cross a line.  If you don't think suffocation to unconciousness is a red flag to stop a scene, may I ask what you do think is?  I ask this not to be argumentative, but because I really am interested in exploring what boundaries we should impose on public play.

You apparently would not stop the scene, unless it was already on the "proscribed acts" list of the dungeon.  I see my role as DM (and yes, I've been trained in three separate public venues) to act before a tragedy.  So if the "bad act" is not on the list, I don't assume what is going on is therefore OK and not to be stopped.

_____________________________

"When you wake up, Pooh," said Piglet, "what's the first thing you say?"
"What's for breakfast? What do you say, Piglet?"
"I say, I wonder what's going to happen exciting today?"
Pooh nodded thoughtfully.
"It's the same thing," he said.

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RE: Some Thoughts on extreme public play -- Choking and... - 5/30/2006 8:18:32 AM   
JohnWarren


Posts: 3807
Joined: 3/18/2005
From: Delray Beach, FL
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Emperor1956
I really am interested in exploring what boundaries we should impose on public play.



The boundaries those running the event chose to have in place.  You had two options: talk to a DM or leave the room.  If the DM disagrees with your assessment, then you have one option.

As a guest, that about exhausts your options.

If the scene bothers you, you also have the option to stop attending parties in that venue.

As is clear from a number of my posts, I'm uncomfortable with the safety of ligature strangulation.  However, it is the call of the parties involved: participant and management.

I might well have discreetly left during the scene, but that's all I would have done.

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RE: Some Thoughts on extreme public play -- Choking and... - 5/30/2006 8:34:39 AM   
Emperor1956


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quote:

I might well have discreetly left during the scene, but that's all I would have done.


Which is exactly what we did. 

E.

_____________________________

"When you wake up, Pooh," said Piglet, "what's the first thing you say?"
"What's for breakfast? What do you say, Piglet?"
"I say, I wonder what's going to happen exciting today?"
Pooh nodded thoughtfully.
"It's the same thing," he said.

(in reply to JohnWarren)
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RE: Some Thoughts on extreme public play -- Choking and... - 5/30/2006 8:40:09 AM   
Lashra


Posts: 4900
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Status: offline 		I personally would have left the room, I've no desire to watch anyone choked/drowned to the point of unconciousness. If the hosts of this event said it was Ok, then let them do what they want within the rules but that doesnt mean I have to watch it.

Also, after some time isn't it possible for a person to suffer brain damage to some degree from this reoccurring loss of conciousness? Just curious...

~Lashra

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RE: Some Thoughts on extreme public play -- Choking and... - 5/30/2006 8:42:35 AM   
saltygoodness27


Posts: 28
Joined: 12/22/2005
Status: offline 		You've left out something very important about this scene.  My guess is that (knowing this couple), this scene dominanted any play space available, making it very hard to observe any other kind of play without having to at least be aware of what they were doing.
I think it's amusing that your partner used the same phrase I often do for those two: train wreck.

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RE: Some Thoughts on extreme public play -- Choking and... - 5/30/2006 8:44:11 AM   
LuckyAlbatross


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Emperor1956
may I ask what you do think is?  I ask this not to be argumentative, but because I really am interested in exploring what boundaries we should impose on public play.

I go with informed consent and anything that involves possible splashing of bodily fluids to be in a contained area.

Anything outside of that, no boundaries.  This is MY list at lest.

The problem with public play is that you haven't asked every single player if they've given informed consent to what's going on there.  We all just have to assume that we're adults and we've done the adult thing.

I also don't break club rules if they don't agree with my own.  I LOVE having sex and playing at the same time, but it's rare I go to an event that allows it.  By going to the event, I accept the play by their rules.  If someone comes to my event, they accept going by my rules.

I give exceptions to things like someone cracking a whip incessantly, screaming bloody murder for more than a few seconds, actually SEEING bolts or ropes or equipment begin to come apart, or walking around bloody (again bodily fluids splashing).

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"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

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RE: Some Thoughts on extreme public play -- Choking and... - 5/30/2006 8:49:41 AM   
Emperor1956


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quote:

Saltygoodness said:  You've left out something very important about this scene.  My guess is that (knowing this couple), this scene dominanted any play space available, making it very hard to observe any other kind of play without having to at least be aware of what they were doing.


salty, you must have seen these people play.  You are correct in that both the location they chose within the play space (dead center, about 10 ft from the front door) and the "volume" of the play made them VERY much the dominant feature of the playspace.  BUT I stress that there was also (off to the side, in the medical play area) a very loud and large (5-8 participants at any given time) anal fisting scene going on.  I don't base My belief (and this process of posting and reading and replying has helped clarify my belief) that the breath deprivation scene is inappropriate on the fact that the couple is loud and "commands" a lot of play space, however.  Your points are good ones, though, in that it would have been impossible to "escape" the scene without leaving the building.

and of course Holly and you both use the same term.  you are smart girls *smile*

E.

_____________________________

"When you wake up, Pooh," said Piglet, "what's the first thing you say?"
"What's for breakfast? What do you say, Piglet?"
"I say, I wonder what's going to happen exciting today?"
Pooh nodded thoughtfully.
"It's the same thing," he said.

(in reply to saltygoodness27)
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RE: Some Thoughts on extreme public play -- Choking and... - 5/30/2006 9:11:48 AM   
JohnWarren


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From: Delray Beach, FL
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lashra
Also, after some time isn't it possible for a person to suffer brain damage to some degree from this reoccurring loss of conciousness? Just curious...



There is that and other risks.  For a discussion of the risks, I recommend Jay Wiseman's essay http://members.aol.com/OldRope/breamain.htm

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RE: Some Thoughts on extreme public play -- Choking and... - 5/30/2006 9:42:05 AM   
HollyS


Posts: 230
Joined: 1/5/2006
Status: offline 		What a great discussion! I appreciate the answers that have been given so far - it's good to hear the insight of others regarding something not seen very often in public space.  I find, though, that the original point is being a bit obscured.

Emperor1956 said:
  <Would you have shut down the suffocation scene?>

A bit of clarification: while at the club E and I had this conversation with the assumption that we would be acting as either the DM or the owner of the club, not as club attendees or casual observers.  Nowhere did I see the suggestion that just anyone should walk up to a scene -- any scene -- and interfere. 

LuckyAlbatross said:
<If it's not against the club rules and you aren't the DM- you have two options, watch or don't watch.>

JohnWarren said:
<The boundaries those running the event chose to have in place.  You had two options: talk to a DM or leave the room.>

So while I agree, the issue of "watch or leave" is a completly separate question. I'll leave aside the "fluffy bunny spank n tickle" for now, since the activities being discussed all involve significant risk of death.

Assume that you are the DM.  Assume that you own a bdsm club and are making up a list of standing protocols.  Would you allow breath control to take place in your space? If so, what would you as the "official person responsible" do to address the legal liability of such activity?  What activities would you consider "off limits" within the club and why? 

LuckyAlbatross said:
<I go with informed consent and anything that involves possible splashing of bodily fluids to be in a contained area.>

Were the woman to die accidently during one of their scenes, the concept of "informed consent" would not be enough to prevent prosecution.  Everyone in the room at the time would have their names taken down by the police, be interviewed, and possibly brought to court.  As the person in charge of safety for the night (the DM) or the person owning the club, your responsibility would be that much greater.  I can imagine what a courtroom might sound like:

Prosecutor Jones: "So DM Smith, how did you know that while she was clawing for air that she was still consenting?"
Prosecutor Jones: "Is it possible that while her brain was deprived of oxygen, that she forgot her safe signal?"
Prosecutor Jones: "Are you saying that she consented to let someone kill her by not signalling in time?"

This is all conjecture on my part, but involuntary manslaughter is still a prosecutable offense.  As I said earlier, cutting, fire, piercings, fisting and such may all be things that push people's buttons, but chances are extremely slim that anyone will die from them, even if a mistake is made.  Public play involves all present in the room while it happens.  So, for those few activities that could result in death (asphyxiation, head kicking, chest punching, etc.) where do people believe the line should be drawn?

~Holly

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RE: Some Thoughts on extreme public play -- Choking and... - 5/30/2006 9:45:05 AM   
desertdancer


Posts: 1095
Joined: 5/12/2006
Status: offline 		Sadly I can see this as an episode of Law and Order or CSI...let's hope the writters don't  wander in here...

If  I were there, as a novice, I'm embarrassed to say, I probably would have watched in horror for a few minutes, untill I realized what I was watching, once it sunk in, I probably would have burst into tears and left... though i do have real time experiance in the lifestyle, mine has been childs play compaired to what's been mentioned here

~dancer

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RE: Some Thoughts on extreme public play -- Choking and... - 5/30/2006 9:50:31 AM   
DullRazer


Posts: 14
Joined: 5/28/2006
Status: offline 		desertdancer
The writers are already one step ahead of you. Oddly enough, one of the only episodes of CSI depicting the lifestyle focused exactly on this topic. Essentially, a professional Domme had some switch tendencies in Her. She let one of her clients meet with Her outside of the professional scene, and was a submissive in that capacity.
The client covered her in liquid latex, and then put a latex hood on her with only nose holes, in which he inserted breathing tubes. He was a bit off his rocker, and pretended She was his wife (he made Her [now her] wear his wifes' watch to authenticate that perception) and took his frustrations out by air deprivation, which ultimately was the end of the girl.

No real mind-blowing conversation/insight here- just saying that writers have already gotten ahold of this sort of thing, and it saddens me to know that the lifestyl was depicted negatively in the episode (one of the only ones pertaining to the lifestyle) which no doubt gives the wrong impression to many of those outside of the lifestyle.

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