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RE: Some Thoughts on extreme public play -- Choking and... - 5/30/2006 10:20:53 AM   
Jnj


Posts: 72
Joined: 9/28/2004
Status: offline 		When Jim and I began to play publicly, we struggled with some of the questions you've brought up.  I can only speak from our point of view, although it has been interesting reading everyone else's. :)

Is extreme breathplay an acceptable risk for public dungeons?  We decided to leave that up to the DMs.  We ask for permission from a DM, and describe in detail the risks and dangers, every time we do breathplay in a public space.  We also invite them to step into our scene and stop it immediately if they ever become uncomfortable that what we are doing will negatively effect their playspace.  The head DM on the night in question sat beside the scene the entire time, made comments once in awhile, and asked us to do our best to not take the scene to the realm of unconsciousness.

In this instance, Jim and I have to be concerned with the risks to ourselves, but it is up to the dungeon to determine what risk they are willing to take.  And we respect this.  We don't do breathplay where it isn't allowed.

The other question you raised has always been a little harder for us to answer.  Is breathplay an acceptable risk when new folks are watching?  I think this one is tricky, because people are wont to go out and do what they see, and I would hope that they educate themselves before attempting breathplay.   I don't feel that our level of responsibility extends to what others choose to do in their scenes. On this front, Jim and I decided that we would not curtail our activities based on the risk new folks might incur, but what we would do is teach classes on breathplay and provide as much safety information as possible.


Thank you for the interesting topic.
Jerith




(in reply to Emperor1956)
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RE: Some Thoughts on extreme public play -- Choking and... - 5/30/2006 10:30:05 AM   
Sensualips


Posts: 1013
Joined: 10/8/2005
Status: offline 		Interesting scenario. 

As a bystander I would have watched with interest and assumed the DM's would take action if needed. As a DM, that would be entirely based on whatever training I had and the expectations of the venue. I would not be concerned with the reactions of new people or "light" players, but only with the venue requirements and safety of onlookers.

Recently I bottomed in an extensive scene that included breath play, some choking and a plastic sack duct taped over my head.  After the scene was complete and immediate aftercare was also done, one of the DM's approached us with compliments on the scene.  She also apologetically told us that technically speaking, breath play was prohibited.  It was not specifically listed as a no-no activity, though in retrospect I had never seen it done at that particular facility. She went on to say they allowed it for several reasons.  1) They knew myself and the top and his skill level / experience 2) There were only a small number of others in attendance, all "regulars" 3) They did not want to interrupt an intense scene.  We apologized, but I was secretly a bit annoyed as it was not listed out in the dungeon rules.   She went on to say that it would be allowed on members only nights, but we should notify the DM in advance.

I think this brings up new issues.  While I was pleased they had not stopped the scene, on a broader level it was vaguely troublesome to me that rules were enforced or not enforced based on personal knowledge or reputation of the players. I have no DM training so I am unsure as to typical standards.  But I also would admit if it were a private play party in my home with a small group, I would absolutely consider the people involved.

The top later told me he had the exact same thing happen with him and his submissive at a post Thunder in the Moutains play party last year.  After a long, intense breath play scene he was also informed that technically that was not allowed -- but the DM's opted to just watch the scene very closely instead of stop it once it had begun. He was very embarassed that he had not checked in advance, and now was kicking himself that this had happened again -- albeit on a smaller scale and as one component of a larger scene.

(in reply to Emperor1956)
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RE: Some Thoughts on extreme public play -- Choking and... - 5/30/2006 10:38:51 AM   
LuckyAlbatross


Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: HollyS
Assume that you are the DM.  Assume that you own a bdsm club and are making up a list of standing protocols.  Would you allow breath control to take place in your space? If so, what would you as the "official person responsible" do to address the legal liability of such activity?  What activities would you consider "off limits" within the club and why? 

I completely understand that there are risks involved here- beyond personal physical risks.  A person dying at a club would be pretty disastrous for everyone involved and I completely understand a club or party veto-ing pretty much any type of play they consider too risky for those reasons.

I'm saying at MY parties, that wouldn't be an issue.  Of course, I'd also know every single person at MY parties and would accept the risk which it entails.

Again, if I were the DM, if the scene wasn't against the rules and I saw no clear signs of actual danger, and there was no serious disruption of the overall sound level- I'd have to keep my hands off.  I'd keep an eye on it, and appreciate if they'd come to me and let me know beforehand, but that's it.

BTW, we aren't talking about Phantom and femcar are we?  That just seems like too obvious to me and anyone who's had a single decent conversation with them knows they are anything but a train wreck- though femcar would get a real kick out of being called that.

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(in reply to HollyS)
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RE: Some Thoughts on extreme public play -- Choking and... - 5/30/2006 10:45:45 AM   
Jnj


Posts: 72
Joined: 9/28/2004
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quote:


BTW, we aren't talking about Phantom and femcar are we?  That just seems like too obvious to me and anyone who's had a single decent conversation with them knows they are anything but a train wreck- though femcar would get a real kick out of being called that.


Nope, based on the descriptin, I think this one's about me and Jim.   But I agree, Femcar and Phantom are anything but a train wreck.

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)
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RE: Some Thoughts on extreme public play -- Choking and... - 5/30/2006 10:46:48 AM   
Mercnbeth


Posts: 11766
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quote:

Would you have shut down the suffocation scene?


E,
No - We would have left if it disturbed us as it did you. We done so in the past when a scene or demonstration that we observed wasn't something we wanted to see. Remember, as you described it, this was a scene in a club. The club's owners have the responsibility for what occurs. I would hope and assume that the couple and their manner of play was know to the owners. If it was a club that we attend regularly I would go to the club owner an ask if he/she was aware of what was happening; but that would be to protect the club owner, not the person involved in the scene. If the owner was aware, I'd trust his knowledge regarding the skill of the scene's protagonist.

The dangers of this type play should be obvious. Personally I don't believe there is a 100% "safe" way to cause someone to pass out due to lack of oxygen to the brain. However one person's RACK is another's hard limit even to observe. Keep in mind, under the wrong circumstances, your use of your hand or a gag to "restrict" your partner's breathing can have the same result as the scene you described.

quote:

For another example, the crowd had many "newbies" that night.  I thought then, and I think now "Should we have a disclaimer somewhere?


This type of a scene that should be required observation for "newbies". What better way to illustrate the risk of trusting someone? What better way to initiate dialog regarding comparable limits and fantasy. The very first thing that beth observed at a demonstration was a bull whipping scene. I think we had been together for less than two months. she panicked to the point of needing to go outside to get some air. It facilitated a lot of conversations regarding what I expected from her.

If a newbie, from either end of the flogger, sees this and asks; "You wouldn't want to do that to me would you?" or "I'd LOVE to do that to you?" or if based on verifiable biofeedback it's obvious that they are observing a fantasy come true; observing the scene advanced the observers self awareness much quicker than any CM discussion regarding the distinction between submissive/slave or how you go about earning your "master" title.

By definition everyone in attendance was an adult. As a society more and more we expect some benevolent caregiver to protect us from ourself after we pass from the care of our parents . You may not go around saying "STOP HER STOP HER" when you see a friend light up a cigarette, but soon you won't have to because to light up will be against the law in a public place. The consequence of wanting to eliminate any potentially dangerous activity is eliminating personal freedom. In a few generations a seesaw may be on Scopes defined as a "true" urban legend.

(in reply to Emperor1956)
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RE: Some Thoughts on extreme public play -- Choking and... - 5/30/2006 6:36:02 PM   
KnightofMists


Posts: 7149
Joined: 7/29/2005
Status: offline 		an excellent scene by the sounds of it.

People have to understand that the moment they attend a party... be it public or private... they consent to being at the party under the rules that are posted and all play that falls in the area.  Anything under the rules is going to be acceptable and all risks are accepted directly or indirectly from the play by our consent of being at the party.  To remove Consent we can bring it to the DM if we are of opinion it violates the rules.  If this doesn't stop the play, we can only remove our consent by leaving the party. 

Last february at public play party the scene I was doing with my bottom denika caused a relatively new Top to leave the play area.  This was actually the second time that he was troubled by the play.  The first time I was playing a male.  On both occassions he ended up talking to the bottoms and gained a deeper appreciation for the scene that occurred.  The scenes that occurred was not all that extreme, but to someone new I can appreciate it would test their tolerance.  What I am suggesting, for those scenes that cause you to get bit nervous or more, talk to the participates of the play when it is possible.  Instead of making close minded judgements... challenge yourself to open your mind and learn.  It might not be your kink, but appreciation of others can help you to develop your own.
Just remember, use some common sense before approaching someone after a scene.  Wait till you see that they are starting to converse with others... maybe get introduced if you don't know them.

_____________________________

Knight of Mists

An Optimal relationship is achieved when the individuals do what is best for themselves and their relationship.

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RE: Some Thoughts on extreme public play -- Choking and... - 5/30/2006 8:36:17 PM   
proudsub


Posts: 6142
Joined: 1/31/2004
From: Washington
Status: offline 		I've really enjoyed this discussion. I've never witnessed anything like this or any public play. All i can say is i hope that the clubs and their owners and DM's that allow such play have good liability insurance. I certainly wouldn't want to take the risk.

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proudsub

"Without goals you become what you were. With goals you become what you wish." .

"You are entitled to your own opinions but not your own facts"--Alan Greenspan


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RE: Some Thoughts on extreme public play -- Choking and... - 5/30/2006 8:49:32 PM   
Sensualips


Posts: 1013
Joined: 10/8/2005
Status: offline
quote:

We ask for permission from a DM, and describe in detail the risks and dangers, every time we do breathplay in a public space.  We also invite them to step into our scene and stop it immediately if they ever become uncomfortable that what we are doing will negatively effect their playspace.  The head DM on the night in question sat beside the scene the entire time, made comments once in awhile, and asked us to do our best to not take the scene to the realm of unconsciousness. 

I don't feel that our level of responsibility extends to what others choose to do in their scenes. On this front, Jim and I decided that we would not curtail our activities based on the risk new folks might incur, but what we would do is teach classes on breathplay and provide as much safety information as possible.


Hmmm, doesn't SOUND like a train wreck to me.  

(in reply to Jnj)
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RE: Some Thoughts on extreme public play -- Choking and... - 7/17/2006 10:31:07 AM   
lalique


Posts: 3
Joined: 6/22/2005
Status: offline 		The intensity.. the trust.. the utter control and surrender.. all very vrey appealing.... I was holding my breath readng Your post... and while i adore a certain amount of edgeplay myself.. i have to say it does sound as though that has been taken 'too far'.  You become a witness....  There is a moment in unconsciousness where a heart CAN stop beating... calculated risks shouldn't be 'life or death'. 

If you don't feel comfortable speaking out against what is going on.. sometimes the loudest 'voice' is actually silence.  I think if you had left... you'd be surprised at how many would follow.  I've been to BDSM events where this has happened. 

People will always do breath play... and once it's been done once, it is indeed addictive (i know!).. but it still comes down to 'safe, sane and concentual'  Innocent people standing by are still responsible.  What if he was cutting into her chest.. risking that she bleed to death... do you still watch on?  It only takes once.....

Be strong in your journey.

(in reply to Emperor1956)
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RE: Some Thoughts on extreme public play -- Choking and... - 7/17/2006 1:57:23 PM   
janiceleeinsc


Posts: 61
Joined: 3/22/2006
Status: offline 		Man.

I thought I was having problems with extreem Edge play and gang rape scenes. 
If she had died, and it is happens, the club would have been up the creek. 
I watched a woman get raped by 3 doms in a dungeon.  She said she was fine, but it grossed me totally out.  
I think Holly's explanation says it all.

Respectfully,  Mistress_Jan

(in reply to DullRazer)
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RE: Some Thoughts on extreme public play -- Choking and... - 7/17/2006 2:01:01 PM   
MistrssM


Posts: 45
Joined: 1/15/2005
Status: offline 		Personally I am no prude and have seen and engaged in all levels of edge play....but I would have walked out on a scene like this you described... I also would question the sense of the owners of such a venue that would allow it.
Even if it was obviously consensual... it is far from safe when taken to the extreme you described....if that is what they do in public... I only wonder what is done privately........

(in reply to lalique)
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RE: Some Thoughts on extreme public play -- Choking and... - 7/17/2006 2:15:25 PM   
Curiossdragnlily


Posts: 105
Joined: 4/4/2006
Status: offline 		That had to have been a difficult situation. Does this public play space have Dungeon Masters just for this type of situation? i know the one's that W/we frequent do just for this type of thing. For me, esoecially since i am a nurse, it would have been near impossible for me to sit still thru that because of all the what if's would have been flying thru my head.
with respect,
lily, collared and owned slave of Master Curios
srn 308-692-331

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"The fresh dew on morning lilies is like the tears of pain..always cleansing" thank You my Beloved Master...

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RE: Some Thoughts on extreme public play -- Choking and... - 7/17/2006 4:37:31 PM   
Jnj


Posts: 72
Joined: 9/28/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Curiossdragnlily

 Does this public play space have Dungeon Masters just for this type of situation?


Yes, they do.  The DM approved our scene before hand, chose the location we played in, and stood by to observe the entire time.

(in reply to Curiossdragnlily)
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RE: Some Thoughts on extreme public play -- Choking and... - 7/17/2006 5:31:23 PM   
Caretakr


Posts: 1221
Joined: 6/24/2006
Status: offline 		I never interefere in scenes in public places.

That's the job of the dm, I just leave if it bothers me too much.

(in reply to Jnj)
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RE: Some Thoughts on extreme public play -- Choking and... - 7/17/2006 9:25:42 PM   
defiantbadgirl


Posts: 2988
Joined: 11/14/2005
Status: offline 		In my opinion, no kind of play with a risk of death should be done in public. Being considered an accomplice to someone's death is not my idea of fun. I respect everyone's right to have their own fun, as long as it doesn't put others at risk. 

(in reply to Caretakr)
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RE: Some Thoughts on extreme public play -- Choking and... - 7/18/2006 12:19:06 AM   
Emperor1956


Posts: 2370
Joined: 11/7/2005
Status: offline 		I did not notice that this thread had become active again until this evening.  My apologies,and thanks to all who posted.  

It is interesting that I agree with most of the comments, and I'm still disturbed by that evening, but I will say that having come to know a bit more about the couple involved My view is a bit less firm on the "NO!" side.  Now my problem is that I have lots of questions about this issue, but no real answers.

I have never met Jnj, but through her posts (and my girl knows them, a bit) I understand that in no way was this scene of theirs, or numerous others I've been told about, casual or ill-prepared.  They are very experienced in this sort of play, and they appear to know what they are doing -- as much as one can know.

Nonetheless they engage in a very high risk activity.  I had not posted this comment before, but the drowning/asphixiation scene I witnessed reminded Me of the very extreme chest punching/body blows scenes that I'd seen 10 years ago in some heavy leather locales (imagine fight club, with the bottom not fighting back).  Those scenes abruptly stopped occuring in public or semipublic spaces when a young man died as a result of one in San Francisco, and the scene basically shut down that behavior (I'm sure it still goes on for the aficianados in private spaces).

So my thought now is not so much as to Jnj, who I deeply hope do not ever damage eachother, but a sort of preventive maintenance?  Do we shut down this sort of play because someone may be seriously injured or die?  Do we allow it -- and at what level of expertise?   I have a nightmare of some novice couple, intoxicated by their first visit to a dungeon and all the incredible energy a good dungeon party can generate, going home and thinking this is something to "try" -- and the horrific happens.  On the other hand, people can do all sorts of foolish things and hurt themselves, and I'm not on the barricades demanding they stop.

Do we require Jnj to post warning labels?  Should there be a notice at the club that guests should expect extreme play?   For that matter, I'm pretty adept with a razor strop and a prison strap, and when I've had a pain slut bottom to work on, I've reduced him or her to pretty much raw bleeding meat.  Do I need a warning label?  (Yes, I know...no one is likely to die from an ass beating, no matter how rough it is.)  I enjoy a good cigar, and I resent being told to stop.  I know the health risks.  I surely sympathise with Jnj and would probably be upset if I heard that their play was banned....still....

somewhat enlightened, and still confused...  E.

_____________________________

"When you wake up, Pooh," said Piglet, "what's the first thing you say?"
"What's for breakfast? What do you say, Piglet?"
"I say, I wonder what's going to happen exciting today?"
Pooh nodded thoughtfully.
"It's the same thing," he said.

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RE: Some Thoughts on extreme public play -- Choking and... - 7/19/2006 6:17:51 PM   
Boreal


Posts: 3
Joined: 1/2/2006
Status: offline 		The reality is that there is no one set of rules that is appropriate for all situations. A club that caters to a select crowd may choose to permit activities that might not be appropriate at a much larger venue that has a large proportion of newbies. Even old-timer vs newbie may not be the operative factor if the newbies participate in social or educational activities that would help them understand what can be done to make a rather extreme activity as safe as possible, verses a situation where they may wander in off the street and leave thinking this is great fun without learning the details.

I've met Femcar and Phantom. They're a great couple. My only objection to her doing a Roman scene in the middle of the dungeon where I was DMing was the possible effects on others playing nearby when the stench intruded on their scenes.

I don't believe I've met Jnj, though I believe I know who they are. If they are who I think they are, they've been doing this for a while and despite the risks I think they've learned to do what they can to mitigate the risks. Most importantly, they follow the rules of the establishment and don't take the attitude of "I'm special and the rules don't apply to me."

Which brings me to my last point. It's not the line DMs that establish policy. They need clear guidance on what is and isn't permitted in that specific play space at that particular moment. Vague concepts such as "safe, sane and consensual" are really meaningless. It's management that decides what is and isn't permitted, and hopefully makes those rules known to everyone. If you, as a guest, see a scene you think may violate a house rule, talk to a DM. If you don't like the house rules, leave.

(in reply to Emperor1956)
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RE: Some Thoughts on extreme public play -- Choking and... - 7/20/2006 3:53:22 PM   
lanwolf


Posts: 78
Joined: 10/31/2005
Status: offline 		I have been thinking about how to reply to this since I saw it yesterday. I have to agree with the fact if it was not against the rules of the club; if you did not like the play don’t watch it. If we want to really get into the legal aspect think of it like this. A submissive is taking part in a heavy scene evolving a cane; they have a lot of bruises and marks after the play but say there all right. After leaving the party half way through they suddenly feel they were violated and call 911 saying they were just assaulted will it make any difference if they gave consent? They law will see it as assault with a weapon and all that saw it could be in serious trouble explaining what was happening, not to mention what the police might see when they walk in.
 
I am a diabetic and have to beg to differ with the fact no one can die from an ass beating, if my blood sugars are to low I can. That being said doses that mean I should not be allowed to play at a public party? I know the risks; the People I play with know them to just as I would hope the P/people that did the choking scene mentioned would as well. If breath play and choking is out of the question for public play is fire play ok? Knife play? Needle play?
 
I really feel it is up to the venue that is holding the party to set the rules then up to all that go there for the play party to decide, is there going to be play there that I am not going to feel comfortable with.  

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RE: Some Thoughts on extreme public play -- Choking and... - 7/22/2006 4:12:31 PM   
Emperor1956


Posts: 2370
Joined: 11/7/2005
Status: offline 		lanwolf:  Fair point on the risk of an assbeating to you, although I will point out that it is the low bG and its attendant issues, not really the beating, that would put you at risk.  You'd be just as much in danger if your bG was too low, and you ran a mile.

Does that mean you shouldn't be allowed to play in public?  IMO, emphatically NO.  But it does mean that you have a responsibility to warn your partner(s) and possibly a DM about the risk. 

And I think that there is a material difference between your situation as a player and people doing a deeply edgy scene. 

E.

_____________________________

"When you wake up, Pooh," said Piglet, "what's the first thing you say?"
"What's for breakfast? What do you say, Piglet?"
"I say, I wonder what's going to happen exciting today?"
Pooh nodded thoughtfully.
"It's the same thing," he said.

(in reply to lanwolf)
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RE: Some Thoughts on extreme public play -- Choking and... - 7/25/2006 11:07:24 AM   
lanwolf


Posts: 78
Joined: 10/31/2005
Status: offline 		Emperor1956 You are right I have the obligation to discuss with my Play Partners my medical conditions, what risks are involved, signs of trouble to look for and what They can do to correct the situation if it turns into one where I need medical attention be it giving me a juice box to rise the blood sugars at the party or calling an ambulance and telling them what is happening to me. They then have the information They need to decide if the play with me is worth the risk and how we can work together to lower the risk.
 
I would hope that the couple that was involved in the breath play choking scene had a similar talk about the risk assessment in there play. No matter the type of play both partners need to talk about the risks, what could go wrong, and how to ensure that the play is done in the safest manner. A basic over the knee hand spanking would not take long to talk about a choking scene would. As long as both people involved know the risks and are willing to take them and are doing things to reduce the risk as much as is possible I believe I have no right to say there idea of fun is right or wrong just as I do not feel people have the right to tell me what I do is wrong. If I have concerns about what others are doing I talk to them after, a day or two latter to let them come back to earth, if I do not like the activity and it has a negative affect on me I don’t watch it.
 Again I have to say it is up to the people hosting the party to post the rules on what is allowed or not allowed, if there is a question about what you want to do then ask a DM and make sure it is not against the rules. Play that is not against the rules of the Play Party that is bothering or causing concern amongst the people present leaves you with the options of talking to the people involved latter, don’t watch or leave the party and return latter. If it is something that you feel strongly about and feel it should not be allowed then talk to the organizers of the event after and maybe they will change there rules for the next party.

(in reply to Emperor1956)
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