RE: Girl Scout troops disband over admittance of transgender child

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RE: Girl Scout troops disband over admittance of transg... - 1/5/2012 5:27:29 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

I agree the hate part is learned...but not the aversion or repulsion to homosexual acts or acting as the opposite gender. What I am saying is the existence of this aversion and repulsion makes it much easier to move to distain and perhaps fear of being called a homosexual...Otherwise it is a special case with many different factors involved to produce sometimes violent reactions to gays and these actions have been acted out through history over and over...Even from homes and environments where there is no hate towards gays. There is a good chance for instance that your children or mind could develop negative reactions towards gays.

Butch

Hate is learned.

But saying the aversion to homosexual acts is natural means those who are repulsed by such acts are unnatural.

In that drive for pleasure we all have, where the ID lives, we begin to explore out universe. Then we have the super ego, which is perfection driven. The Ego drives to fond balance, if we are lucky.

I often wonder if those who believe they hold such an aversion could actually have a stronger super-ego than the rest. I am not repulsed by acts of homosexuality. Not at all. In fact, I sometimes find them extremely hot. That doesnt mean I want to be within such a relationship.

Aversion therapy is a strange thing... and it starts extremely young.

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Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

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RE: Girl Scout troops disband over admittance of transg... - 1/6/2012 8:08:56 AM

Aswad

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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

Languages are not instinctual.

Languages, no. Language, yes. The facility is instinctive. The set of parameters and inventory of -emes are learned. Mostly by anything other than repetition.

Health,
al-Aswad.

_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.

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RE: Girl Scout troops disband over admittance of transg... - 1/6/2012 8:25:04 AM

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There's little doubt that language models consciousness rather than vice versa, though. It isn't that instinctual.

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RE: Girl Scout troops disband over admittance of transg... - 1/6/2012 5:08:50 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle
I'm glad you agree that phenomena such as homo- and trans-phobia, racism etc are acquired and therefore social phobias. For me the most important point is that we agree such social phobias can be "treated, changed and eliminated".

Such phobias are absolutely changable, it's demonstrable. Homosexuality has gone from being an illegal mental illness to just another aspect in the lives of friends, family or neighbors for much of the country.

However, It seems to me that slandering a group (in this case a group of bigots) by attributing outlandish secret motivations or causes for their position demonstrates that the ingroup/outgroup dynamic is still alive and well and that we're just shuffling around who gets to be in the ingroup and who gets stuck in the out group enduring lies, prejudice and hatred.

< Message edited by GotSteel -- 1/6/2012 5:15:08 PM >

(in reply to tweakabelle)

RE: Girl Scout troops disband over admittance of transg... - 1/6/2012 5:23:28 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

Languages are not instinctual.

Languages, no. Language, yes. The facility is instinctive. The set of parameters and inventory of -emes are learned. Mostly by anything other than repetition.

Health,
al-Aswad.

I already stated the ability to make sounds are from birth. Making sounds isnt a language.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to Aswad)

RE: Girl Scout troops disband over admittance of transg... - 1/6/2012 5:30:00 PM

kdsub

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quote:

I already stated the ability to make sounds are from birth. Making sounds isn’t a language.

Oh but it is... are you telling me that interactions and noises used between new born and their care takers are not a universal language... if you say no I would think you wrong.

Language is instinctual between all living species...it is just refined with humans...in my opinion anyway.

Remember language is not just noise it is body language and tactile as well.

Butch

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I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

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RE: Girl Scout troops disband over admittance of transg... - 1/6/2012 5:49:32 PM

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"Language may refer either to the specifically human capacity for acquiring and using complex systems of communication, or to a specific instance of such a system of complex communication." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Language

As I've already stated I'm not claiming that "a specific instance of such a system of complex communication" is natural. I am claiming that "the specifically human capacity for acquiring and using complex systems of communication" is natural.

(in reply to tazzygirl)

RE: Girl Scout troops disband over admittance of transg... - 1/6/2012 5:57:12 PM

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quote:

Oh but it is... are you telling me that interactions and noises used between new born and their care takers are not a universal language... if you say no I would think you wrong.

Oh Butch, moms know by the tone of their child's cries that something is wrong. It still requires determining just what is wrong. Communication is still learned. Realizing that when the child is hungry they may point to the kitchen, suck on their fingers, cry and smack at the mom (my nephew did that). But, these are still learned. They arent instinctual from birth. Its a communication process that develops between the care giver and the baby.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to kdsub)

RE: Girl Scout troops disband over admittance of transg... - 1/6/2012 6:00:31 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

"Language may refer either to the specifically human capacity for acquiring and using complex systems of communication, or to a specific instance of such a system of complex communication." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Language

As I've already stated I'm not claiming that "a specific instance of such a system of complex communication" is natural. I am claiming that "the specifically human capacity for acquiring and using complex systems of communication" is natural.

When used as a general concept, "language" refers to the cognitive faculty that enables humans to learn and use systems of complex communication........ Humans acquire language through social interaction in early childhood, and children generally speak fluently when they are around three years old.

From birth we all learn how to communicate.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to GotSteel)

RE: Girl Scout troops disband over admittance of transg... - 1/6/2012 6:27:59 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl
When used as a general concept, "language" refers to the cognitive faculty that enables humans to learn and use systems of complex communication........ Humans acquire language through social interaction in early childhood, and children generally speak fluently when they are around three years old.

From birth we all learn how to communicate.

Yes from birth we all learn "a specific instance of such a system of complex communication" Which is the definition of language as it's used in the second sentence. Language as it's used in that second sentence is unnatural.

However the first sentence, which is actually in a completely different paragraph than the second sentence that you've quoted, refers to a different definition of language. Language as the word is used in the first sentence: "the specifically human capacity for acquiring and using complex systems of communication" is natural.

These two definitions cannot be used interchangeably, endeavors to do so are equivocation fallacies.

quote:

ORIGINAL: http://www.logicalfallacies.info/ambiguity/equivocation/
Equivocation Fallacy Explanation The fallacy of equivocation is committed when a term is used in two or more different senses within a single argument. For an argument to work, words must have the same meaning each time they appear in its premises or conclusion. Arguments that switch between different meanings of words equivocate, and so don’t work. This is because the change in meaning introduces a change in subject. If the words in the premises and the conclusion mean different things, then the premises and the conclusion are about different things, and so the former cannot support the latter.

(in reply to tazzygirl)

RE: Girl Scout troops disband over admittance of transg... - 1/6/2012 6:39:59 PM

kdsub

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I believe babies try to communicate from inception, even in the womb... I will agree there may be a difference between communication and language.

BUT

Language is just a sophisticated way to communicate and all living creatures communicate instinctively…Remember learning takes communicating at some level and this includes language.

Butch

< Message edited by kdsub -- 1/6/2012 6:40:48 PM >

_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

(in reply to tazzygirl)

RE: Girl Scout troops disband over admittance of transg... - 1/6/2012 6:41:35 PM

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quote:

endeavors to do so are equivocation fallacies

Then you should have chosen a better source for its from there that the two definitions originate.

You decided to use an extremely scientific definition, which is often was ends up in these types of discussion and a debate about the meaning of words.

Language, as I use it, is the ability to communicate. Sign Language, Verbal,, Gestures

Oxford...

the system of communication in speech and writing that is used by people of a particular country or area
the use by humans of a system of sounds and words to communicate
a particular style of speaking or writing

http://oald8.oxfordlearnersdictionaries.com/dictionary/language

I believe everyone knows these definitions, and understands this is what we mean when we speak of "language"

A newborn's ability to "communicate" is extremely limited at birth. From that point on, its a trial and error between caregiver and baby until a common form of communication is achieved.

Now, I would like to move past the definition stage.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to GotSteel)

RE: Girl Scout troops disband over admittance of transg... - 1/6/2012 7:05:51 PM

Aswad

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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

I already stated the ability to make sounds are from birth. Making sounds isnt a language.

I never referenced sounds.

Nicaraguan Sign Language developed spontaneously from putting some deaf kids in a school together. They had signs on par with what you can readily teach a cat or dog when they arrived, and in no time at all, they had extensive vocabularies, and grammar patterns were appearing. By the time the people who were supposed to teach them ASL arrived, NSL was a complete language in its own right, with fully featured grammar and vocabulary.

That's the language instinct at work, and you don't have to be Steven Pinker or Noam Chomsky to marvel at it, though it will help you appreciate just how innate the instinct is. Indeed, there's little difference between a beaver knowing how to build a dam and a human knowing how to work with language.

Health,
al-Aswad.

_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.

(in reply to tazzygirl)

RE: Girl Scout troops disband over admittance of transg... - 1/6/2012 7:13:43 PM

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quote:

That's the language instinct at work, and you don't have to be Steven Pinker or Noam Chomsky to marvel at it, though it will help you appreciate just how innate the instinct is.

The instinct to communicate is there at birth, though the argument could be made that the drive to communicate is only there because of the Id's desire for gratification.

The way we communicate is a learned process. The ability isnt there.

quote:

Nicaraguan Sign Language developed spontaneously from putting some deaf kids in a school together. They had signs on par with what you can readily teach a cat or dog when they arrived, and in no time at all, they had extensive vocabularies, and grammar patterns were appearing.

Someone started the process. They taught each other a means for communication.

I dont see this as instinctual... its still learned.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to Aswad)

RE: Girl Scout troops disband over admittance of transg... - 1/6/2012 7:32:53 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle
I'm glad you agree that phenomena such as homo- and trans-phobia, racism etc are acquired and therefore social phobias. For me the most important point is that we agree such social phobias can be "treated, changed and eliminated".

Such phobias are absolutely changable, it's demonstrable. Homosexuality has gone from being an illegal mental illness to just another aspect in the lives of friends, family or neighbors for much of the country.

However, It seems to me that slandering a group (in this case a group of bigots) by attributing outlandish secret motivations or causes for their position demonstrates that the ingroup/outgroup dynamic is still alive and well and that we're just shuffling around who gets to be in the ingroup and who gets stuck in the out group enduring lies, prejudice and hatred.

May I remind people that this conversation started with GS contesting my assertion that bigotry (homophobia, racism and transphobia) is a social phobia, and excusing bigotry by asserting "hate is natural". GS now agrees that "Such phobias are absolutely changable, it's demonstrable" ie. they are social phobias. Aswad's post provides further evidence and confirmation of the social nature and origin of these mental disorders.

So the question is: Why do some people choose to cling to their phobias when there are successful methods of treatment available?

The explanation I offered is that, in relation to homophobia, bigots often use their bigotry as a way to resolve their internal conflicts over the bigot's own same-sex attractions. There are other factors present here - fear ignorance and concerns about loss of social status/power/prestige being among the more notable ones. I asserted that this analysis can be used with transphobia - bigots choose to punish transgenders for the bigots own insecurities about gender, or their refusal to address their own ignorance and fears or their refusal to share social status/power/prestige with 'gender deviants'.

Despite a complete failure to present (thus far) any credible alternative explanation for these phenomena, GS describes my claim as "attributing outlandish secret motivations or causes for their position". If GS is going to contest my assertion, he needs to offer some evidence or analysis to show my assertion is either inaccurate or "outlandish". It would also be nice if GS could offer a credible alternative perspective, particularly so in view of the complete collapse of his previous position and claims. As so much of human behaviour is influenced by sex, GS needs to either explain or exclude sex as a possible motivation.

Most non-medical professionals working in these fields (and many medicos too) share the views I have advanced. Hate/repulsion/violent aversion/disgust are common defensive strategies employed by people when they feel threatened. Why are transgenders seen as such a threat? Precisely what is threatened by transgenders? Why are transgenders punished so relentlessly? Why is transgender considered a mental disorder when transphobia isn't even regarded as worthy of psychiatric/pathological investigation?

< Message edited by tweakabelle -- 1/6/2012 7:36:34 PM >

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RE: Girl Scout troops disband over admittance of transg... - 1/6/2012 8:38:09 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl
Then you should have chosen a better source for its from there that the two definitions originate.

No no, the wiki is fine. Replacing the portion of the article where it's explained that a different definition of the word language is being used with "......." is not fine.

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl
You decided to use an extremely scientific definition, which is often was ends up in these types of discussion and a debate about the meaning of words.

Unfortunately words are imperfect vehicles for meaning, as such clarification is often necessary. So if we go back and forth over the definition of a word in an honest endeavor to understand the actual concept that's being put forth, OK, that happens.

Thing is once you understand the way I'm using a word and I've demonstrated that the way I'm using that word is valid it's no longer OK to try and substitute your definition of a word for my definition of said word as it's used in MY argument.

You don't get to put words in MY mouth.

(in reply to tazzygirl)

RE: Girl Scout troops disband over admittance of transg... - 1/6/2012 8:42:48 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle
May I remind people that this conversation started with GS contesting my assertion that bigotry (homophobia, racism and transphobia) is a social phobia, and excusing bigotry by asserting "hate is natural".

I call bullshit.

You don't get to put words in my mouth either.

(in reply to tweakabelle)

RE: Girl Scout troops disband over admittance of transg... - 1/6/2012 9:28:05 PM

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From: Sydney Australia
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quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle
May I remind people that this conversation started with GS contesting my assertion that bigotry (homophobia, racism and transphobia) is a social phobia, and excusing bigotry by asserting "hate is natural".

I call bullshit.

You don't get to put words in my mouth either.

Post #244

quote:

quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle
Your account suggests to me that homophobic influences can be addressed successfully if the person concerned has the requisite honesty, information and courage. This in turn suggests that homophobic influences are largely acquired from the environment, that social phobias that are learned can be un-learned. It makes perfect sense to me to assert that hate is acquired, that hate is unnatural.

I've got to disagree, hate is natural. Christ on a stick we're talking about an emotion here. I also suspect that the formation of ingroups and ingroup bias are quite natural to the human condition. The social construct is who makes the ingroup and who gets stuck being hated.

Your own words - "hate is natural".

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RE: Girl Scout troops disband over admittance of transg... - 1/6/2012 9:45:04 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl
Then you should have chosen a better source for its from there that the two definitions originate.

No no, the wiki is fine. Replacing the portion of the article where it's explained that a different definition of the word language is being used with "......." is not fine.

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl
You decided to use an extremely scientific definition, which is often was ends up in these types of discussion and a debate about the meaning of words.

Unfortunately words are imperfect vehicles for meaning, as such clarification is often necessary. So if we go back and forth over the definition of a word in an honest endeavor to understand the actual concept that's being put forth, OK, that happens.

Thing is once you understand the way I'm using a word and I've demonstrated that the way I'm using that word is valid it's no longer OK to try and substitute your definition of a word for my definition of said word as it's used in MY argument.

You don't get to put words in MY mouth.

You may define the word as you wish. Wiki gave more than one definition, as does most dictionaries, according to its use. You chose to go with one that fit what you are trying to convince me is true.

However, there has yet been a convincing argument that language is instinct and not a learned response. Again, the Id drives the newborn, creating the necessity for "language" or "communication". Newborns do two things... cry and sleep... and somewhere within those actions they poop and occasionally open their eyes. They make a want/need known by crying. Its the only communication skill a newborn has. No different than any other creature with vocal chords.

Since you insist on using your definition...

"Language may refer either to the specifically human capacity for acquiring and using complex systems of communication, or to a specific instance of such a system of complex communication."

What is it about the newborn making sounds (crying, whimpering, ect) that is specifically human for communication?

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to GotSteel)

RE: Girl Scout troops disband over admittance of transg... - 1/6/2012 10:47:48 PM

Posts: 5871
Joined: 2/19/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle
Your account suggests to me that homophobic influences can be addressed successfully if the person concerned has the requisite honesty, information and courage. This in turn suggests that homophobic influences are largely acquired from the environment, that social phobias that are learned can be un-learned. It makes perfect sense to me to assert that hate is acquired, that hate is unnatural.

quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel
I've got to disagree, hate is natural. Christ on a stick we're talking about an emotion here. I also suspect that the formation of ingroups and ingroup bias are quite natural to the human condition. The social construct is who makes the ingroup and who gets stuck being hated.

Your own words - "hate is natural".

Yes, hate is natural just like love and every other human emotion as I've explained and you've understood. I'll bold where you're misrepresenting me.

quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle
May I remind people that this conversation started with GS contesting my assertion that bigotry (homophobia, racism and transphobia) is a social phobia, and excusing bigotry by asserting "hate is natural".

Let's take a look at those one at a time shall we.

quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle
GS contesting my assertion that bigotry (homophobia, racism and transphobia) is a social phobia

I've consistently agreed with you on this, I agreed with you on this in the post where you claim I'm disagreeing, I'll bold the part where I'm agreeing.

quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel
I've got to disagree, hate is natural. Christ on a stick we're talking about an emotion here. I also suspect that the formation of ingroups and ingroup bias are quite natural to the human condition. The social construct is who makes the ingroup and who gets stuck being hated.

You've even acknowledged that we're on the same page in that regard in post 255.

quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle
I'm glad you agree that phenomena such as homo- and trans-phobia, racism etc are acquired and therefore social phobias. For me the most important point is that we agree such social phobias can be "treated, changed and eliminated".

The question of whether raw (undeveloped) emotions (eg. love and hate) are natural or otherwise is a very interesting philosophical question with important consequences, but way beyond the limits of this particular conversation and thread.

(in reply to tweakabelle)

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