RE: Girl Scout troops disband over admittance of transgender child

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RE: Girl Scout troops disband over admittance of transg... - 12/23/2011 6:21:43 PM

Posts: 261
Joined: 8/7/2011
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quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterSlaveLA

Too bad your empty little rant is sensless in the extreme. Not exposing my lil one(s) to a male that desires to wear a dress places ZERO "responsibility" on YOU -- neat how that works, huh?!! That you think YOU have any "responsibility" for MY decisions for MY lil' one(s) is YOUR grand "illusion". In the future, if you're going post something concerning another's decisions for THEIR family, first ensure it makes SOME sense.

Let's go ahead and keep the discussion civil. Neither of us are idiots, and it would not serve any of us to make senseless points. Let's kindly put our exclamation points and caps back on the shelf.

Allow me to draw a dichotomy to simplify the point. On one side, there is keeping your child from being exposed to something you don't like. On the other side, there is attempting to get the rest of reality to conform in order to keep up the guise. The instant news story is an excellent example of the latter. The actions of the parents had consequences that went well beyond shielding their children. It extended to the dissolution of Girlscout troops, resulting in children that no longer had the opportunity to participate as well as counselors that no longer have an opportunity to work. It was the sacrifices of those individuals that went into maintaining the illusion.

Bear in mind that I'm not questioning your right to coddle your child. You're allowed to raise your kid however you want within the law. It is only when those efforts seek to get the rest of the world to contribute in the coddling that the problem presents itself.

*******************

As an aside, here is a quote of yours, edited down for concision. (let me know if the editing is fair)

"It's not my...responsibility to expose [my child] to, or have to explain to them why, [difficult, awkward, or complex situations happen]."

If you're not going to explain to your child the ways of the world, who will? Would you rather it be done by your church, community, or government?

< Message edited by BanthaSamantha -- 12/23/2011 6:30:19 PM >

(in reply to MasterSlaveLA)

RE: Girl Scout troops disband over admittance of transg... - 12/23/2011 6:24:11 PM

Posts: 261
Joined: 8/7/2011
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quote:

ORIGINAL: InvisibleBlack

If a bunch of parents want to start up their own private self-funded daycare/scouting/private school whatever and they want to exclude certain things ... can they? How far should that go? No transgendered teachers at private school? No holocaust survivors at private school? No Santa-deniers at private school?

Pending it is done within the framework of the law and Constitution (admittedly a difficult feat for these types of restrictions), go hog wild.

(in reply to InvisibleBlack)

RE: Girl Scout troops disband over admittance of transg... - 12/23/2011 6:25:56 PM

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I missed that part. My eyes are starting to cross... lol I blame it on the other thread.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to MasterSlaveLA)

RE: Girl Scout troops disband over admittance of transg... - 12/23/2011 6:29:08 PM

Posts: 865
Joined: 7/24/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

quote:

So you're telling me that it would be impossible for Bobby Montoya or someone else transgendered like her, eight or ten years from now, to impregnate a girl?

You didnt say anything about Bobby?

Are you sure?

I could have sworn those were your words, post # 67, no?

Fair enough. Allow me to rephrase.

I said nothing about Bobby Montoya's character. I said that it would be possible for a teenaged Bobby Montyoa or any transgendered girl to father a child.

I take it you do not disagree.

_____________________________

Consider the daffodil. And while you're doing that, I'll be over here, looking through your stuff.

(in reply to tazzygirl)

RE: Girl Scout troops disband over admittance of transg... - 12/23/2011 6:43:02 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: BanthaSamantha

...should the rest of us have any responsibility to help you maintain that illusion?

Once again, demonstrate where YOU have ANY "responsibility" in MY decsion not to expose my lil' one(s) to, or have to explain to them why, little Bobby puts on a dress because he thinks/feels he's little Barbie, as YOU ALLEGED?!!

quote:

ORIGINAL: BanthaSamantha

It extended to the dissolution of Girlscout troops, resulting in children that no longer had the opportunity to participate...

Not surprisingly, FALSE, as usual. The dissolution of ONE "troop" (not "troops) does not prohibit a parent from moving their kid(s) to ANOTHER "troop" for said "opportunity to participate", if they so wish.

< Message edited by MasterSlaveLA -- 12/23/2011 6:48:18 PM >

_____________________________

It's only kinky the first time!!!

(in reply to BanthaSamantha)

RE: Girl Scout troops disband over admittance of transg... - 12/23/2011 6:45:13 PM

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Joined: 7/24/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

quote:

Your argument seems to be that it couldn't happen and that if it did, there would have to be some other explanation. Am I misstating it?

Yes, you are. My position is that at age 7, its not a position to be concerned about, and that by the time Bobby is, say 14? they would have 7 years to decide how to handle such a situation.

Unfortunately (or possibly fortunately, I guess, depending on one's position) the United States operates on a system of precedent. If, as an organization, you decide to allow something to occur - it makes it much more difficult to prevent that occurence from happening later on if you decide to change your mind. Likewise, if you allow Bobby into the Girl Scouts now - are you going to kick her out when she turns 14 or whatever if you decide the risk is too great?

The sad fact is, pretty much anything that goes on where I work that involves personell ends up having to go to legal to get an opinion. This can range from a day for a trivial memo to weeks for something significant. For something like allowing transgendered girls into the Girl Scouts - I would think wheels are already spinning throughout the organization. The issue of gay scoutmasters in the Boy Scouts went all the way to the Supreme Court.

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl
Beyond that, we have no ability to know what could or couldnt happen.

Possible yes... probable, we dont know.

But if you're running an organization, claiming that you had "no ability to know what could or couldn't happen" isn't a viable position to take. Tony Hayward could have claimed that about the BP oil spill, or Jon Corzine about the MF Global theft. I'm sure Penn State is saying that about Jerry Sandusky. You have to consider the possible ramifications, weigh the risks and make a decision.

If you decide to allow transgendered girls into the Girl Scouts, you are saying that you are accepting certain risks. If something untoward happens, you (the organization and potentially the individuals making the decision) will then be responsible. If you do not, you are saying that you are discriminating against transgendered children.

_____________________________

Consider the daffodil. And while you're doing that, I'll be over here, looking through your stuff.

(in reply to tazzygirl)

RE: Girl Scout troops disband over admittance of transg... - 12/23/2011 6:46:11 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

I missed that part. My eyes are starting to cross... lol

Here... you can borrow MY reading glasses

(sobs... and squints)

Attachment (1)

_____________________________

It's only kinky the first time!!!

(in reply to tazzygirl)

RE: Girl Scout troops disband over admittance of transg... - 12/23/2011 6:55:43 PM

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Joined: 8/7/2011
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quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterSlaveLA

quote:

ORIGINAL: BanthaSamantha

It extended to the dissolution of Girlscout troops, resulting in children that no longer had the opportunity to participate...

Not surprisingly, FALSE, as usual. The dissolution of ONE "troop" (not "troops) does not prohibit a parent from moving their kid(s) to ANOTHER "troop" for said "opportunity to participate", if they so wish.

Three troops were disbanded in the wake of this controversy. Not one.

http://www.christianpost.com/news/la-girl-scout-troops-disband-over-transgender-inclusion-64877/
""Three Girl Scout troops at a Christian school in Louisiana have disbanded in protest of a policy of inclusion for transgenders.""

If I came off as smug or contrite in correcting you, I do apologize.

(in reply to MasterSlaveLA)

RE: Girl Scout troops disband over admittance of transg... - 12/23/2011 6:58:10 PM

Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
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quote:

Unfortunately (or possibly fortunately, I guess, depending on one's position) the United States operates on a system of precedent. If, as an organization, you decide to allow something to occur - it makes it much more difficult to prevent that occurence from happening later on if you decide to change your mind. Likewise, if you allow Bobby into the Girl Scouts now - are you going to kick her out when she turns 14 or whatever if you decide the risk is too great?

I dont consider that risk any greater than if they were away at a coed camp, would you?

quote:

But if you're running an organization, claiming that you had "no ability to know what could or couldn't happen" isn't a viable position to take. Tony Hayward could have claimed that about the BP oil spill, or Jon Corzine about the MF Global theft. I'm sure Penn State is saying that about Jerry Sandusky. You have to consider the possible ramifications, weigh the risks and make a decision.

If you decide to allow transgendered girls into the Girl Scouts, you are saying that you are accepting certain risks. If something untoward happens, you (the organization and potentially the individuals making the decision) will then be responsible. If you do not, you are saying that you are discriminating against transgendered children.

If you are running an organization for children and are admitting you cant handle the responsibility and develop ways to ensure their safety, then maybe you shouldnt be running it.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to InvisibleBlack)

RE: Girl Scout troops disband over admittance of transg... - 12/23/2011 7:06:04 PM

Posts: 865
Joined: 7/24/2009
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

quote:

Unfortunately (or possibly fortunately, I guess, depending on one's position) the United States operates on a system of precedent. If, as an organization, you decide to allow something to occur - it makes it much more difficult to prevent that occurence from happening later on if you decide to change your mind. Likewise, if you allow Bobby into the Girl Scouts now - are you going to kick her out when she turns 14 or whatever if you decide the risk is too great?

I dont consider that risk any greater than if they were away at a coed camp, would you?

That would depend. At a co-ed camp, the boys are treated differently than the girls (different facilities, sleeping arrangements, etc.). Are you going to treat the transgender girls differently than the non-transgender girls?

_____________________________

Consider the daffodil. And while you're doing that, I'll be over here, looking through your stuff.

(in reply to tazzygirl)

RE: Girl Scout troops disband over admittance of transg... - 12/23/2011 7:20:28 PM

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Joined: 10/12/2007
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At 7, no. At puberty, why cant they have their own cabin or tent? I recall many camping trips returning to the cabins and barely being able to crawl into bed before conking out, we were just that tired. Which is why I felt they should merge the two organizations. Transgenders are becoming more and more frequent. Many kids dont tell anyone they are transgenders, and neither do their parents.

There are also nearly 700,000 transgender individuals in the US.

http://williamsinstitute.law.ucla.edu/research/census-lgbt-demographics-studies/how-many-people-are-lesbian-gay-bisexual-and-transgender/

Its not a huge segment, but neither is it so small that it can continue to be ignored.

ETA

Something else that I thought about... what of those who legally change their sex?

Almost all U.S. states permit the name and sex to be changed on a birth certificate, either through amending the existing birth certificate or by issuing a new one. Only Idaho, Ohio, Tennessee, and Texas refuse to change the gender marker, though Texas will do so if a court order is presented. The legislatures and courts of many states, however, including Missouri, have not addressed this issue. Like other states, California will amend birth certificates only for California natives currently living in California. However, unlike other states, postoperative residents of California born outside California may obtain a court-ordered change of name and gender.

If only boys can join the boy scouts, and suzie changes, legally, to male on her birth certificate, does it matter that she doesnt have dangly bits?

There are a slew of issues that this condition brings up that will have to be addressed.

< Message edited by tazzygirl -- 12/23/2011 7:24:43 PM >

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to InvisibleBlack)

RE: Girl Scout troops disband over admittance of transg... - 12/23/2011 7:21:17 PM

Posts: 3991
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quote:

ORIGINAL: BanthaSamantha

quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterSlaveLA

quote:

ORIGINAL: BanthaSamantha

It extended to the dissolution of Girlscout troops, resulting in children that no longer had the opportunity to participate...

Not surprisingly, FALSE, as usual. The dissolution of ONE "troop" (not "troops) does not prohibit a parent from moving their kid(s) to ANOTHER "troop" for said "opportunity to participate", if they so wish.

Three troops were disbanded in the wake of this controversy. Not one.

http://www.christianpost.com/news/la-girl-scout-troops-disband-over-transgender-inclusion-64877/
""Three Girl Scout troops at a Christian school in Louisiana have disbanded in protest of a policy of inclusion for transgenders.""

Oh, well golly-gee... THREE whole troops?!! OH MY FUCKING GAWD... the entire Girl Scouts has just COLLAPSED!!! My God... will parents EVER be able to find a FOURTH group/troop?!!

And I see you've FAILED YET AGAIN to identify any supposed "responsibility" you have for my decisions, as you FALSELY alleged. (yeah, real shocker)

Thus, if I came off as smug or contrite in YET ATAIN showing the nonsensical and unsupported allegations you've made, the fault and failing is your own.

< Message edited by MasterSlaveLA -- 12/23/2011 7:26:21 PM >

_____________________________

It's only kinky the first time!!!

(in reply to BanthaSamantha)

RE: Girl Scout troops disband over admittance of transg... - 12/23/2011 7:22:24 PM

Posts: 7522
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From: Sydney Australia
Status: offline

quote:

I said that it would be possible for a teenaged Bobby Montyoa or any transgendered girl to father a child.

Typically, Male-to-Female transgenders take oestrogens, which suppresses production of testosterone and other androgens. The answer to your question then is: No, impregnation would be impossible if taking hormones.

Most M2F transgenders report a loss/diminution of libido and sexual function. It is my understanding that infertility is usually permanent even if they stop taking hormones after a year or two.

If I may say so, it does seem to me to be stretching things somewhat to worry about events that may or may not happen 10 years into the future, events that will most likely be impossible when the issue that needs resolving is current.

< Message edited by tweakabelle -- 12/23/2011 7:23:35 PM >

_____________________________

(in reply to InvisibleBlack)

RE: Girl Scout troops disband over admittance of transg... - 12/23/2011 7:30:33 PM

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Its my opinion that you make the decisions for your child. If you wish to remove your child because of the presence of another, that is certainly your right to do so.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to MasterSlaveLA)

RE: Girl Scout troops disband over admittance of transg... - 12/23/2011 7:30:47 PM

Posts: 261
Joined: 8/7/2011
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterSlaveLA

Oh, well golly-gee... THREE whole troops?!! OH MY FUCKING GAWD... the entire Girl Scouts as COLLAPSED!!! My God... will parents EVER be able to find a FOURTH group?!!

I appreciate that you acknowledged your mistake, corrected it, and that you withdrew any arguments predicated upon the mistake. It shows you are a person of strong character. Not many people would have the maturity to own up to an embarassing mistake like that, let alone on an internet forum, but you did. Kudos.

quote:

And I see you've FAILED YET AGAIN to identify any supposed "responsibility" you have for my decisions, as you FALSELY alleged. (yeah, real shocker)

Thus, if I came off as smug or contrite in YET ATAIN showing the nonsensical and unsupported allegations you've made, the fault and failing is your own.

You didn't read my original post closely enough, and you certainly didn't read my follow up. Both posts addressed all of your concerns here.

Allow me to reiterate. I make no allegation whatsoever to you. Nor do I claim that I bear any responsibility for your notions. So how about we just go ahead and erase those strawmen from your mind. My post was intended to point out the limits of acceptable behaviors. As I said before, there is nothing wrong with you coddling your children. And as I said before, the problem develops when you expect other people, as the people in the instant controversy did, to help in this coddling. I'm not saying you engaged in any of those behaviors, I am simply reminding you of the boundaries. Allow me to explain the essence of my point with a metaphor.

You are free to leave the party, but you aren't free to ruin the party for everyone else.

(in reply to MasterSlaveLA)

RE: Girl Scout troops disband over admittance of transg... - 12/23/2011 7:30:50 PM

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Joined: 7/24/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

quote:

I said that it would be possible for a teenaged Bobby Montyoa or any transgendered girl to father a child.

Typically, Male-to-Female transgenders take oestrogens, which suppresses production of testosterone and other androgens. The answer to your question then is: No, impregnation would be impossible if taking hormones.

I do not believe that a physician in the US will prescribe estrogens or any hormone course to a teen. Although it's not my area of expertise, I expect that starting a hormone regimen as part of a M-t-F transition is something one would have to wait until legal adulthood for - which likely makes the whole gender identity issue even rougher for transgendered teens.

_____________________________

Consider the daffodil. And while you're doing that, I'll be over here, looking through your stuff.

(in reply to tweakabelle)

RE: Girl Scout troops disband over admittance of transg... - 12/23/2011 7:36:03 PM

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http://www.cnn.com/2011/09/27/health/transgender-kids/index.html

Apparently they do prescribe around the onset of puberty.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to InvisibleBlack)

RE: Girl Scout troops disband over admittance of transg... - 12/23/2011 7:43:43 PM

Posts: 3991
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: BanthaSamantha

I see you've FAILED YET AGAIN to:

1) Compehend that, as I correctly stated, said dissolution does NOT "prohibit a parent from moving their kid(s) to ANOTHER (be it a fourth, fifth, or whatever) troop for said opportunity to participate, if they so wish."

2) Support your nonsensical allegation...

quote:

ORIGINAL: BanthaSamantha

...should the rest of us have any responsibility to help you maintain that illusion?

Once again, demonstrate where YOU have ANY "responsibility" (as YOU EXPESSLY ALLEGED) in MY (or ANYONE'S) decsion not to expose their lil' one(s) to, or have to explain to them why, little Bobby puts on a dress because he thinks/feels he's little Barbie. YOU are the one that alleged some "responsibility" on your part, now prove it -- or admit you lied.

3) Support your nonsensical allegation...

quote:

ORIGINAL: BanthaSamantha

...you expect other people, as the people in the instant controversy did, to help in this coddling.

Demonstrate where the parents involved in this issue "expected" others to "help" with their decision -- or admit you lied.

< Message edited by MasterSlaveLA -- 12/23/2011 7:51:50 PM >

_____________________________

It's only kinky the first time!!!

(in reply to BanthaSamantha)

RE: Girl Scout troops disband over admittance of transg... - 12/23/2011 7:46:33 PM

Posts: 865
Joined: 7/24/2009
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

At 7, no. At puberty, why cant they have their own cabin or tent? I recall many camping trips returning to the cabins and barely being able to crawl into bed before conking out, we were just that tired. Which is why I felt they should merge the two organizations. Transgenders are becoming more and more frequent. Many kids dont tell anyone they are transgenders, and neither do their parents.

Merging the two organizations into one co-ed scouting group resolves the issue (and I think there will eventually be a gender-neutral "Scouts") but how is that different from creating a third organization and leaving the Girl Scouts and Boy Scouts in place? I have no doubt if the two organizations merge, a new girl scout group and a new boy scout group will form (under new names) for those who don't want their kids in a co-ed scouting group, transgender issues aside. Aren't the angry parents moving themselves and their kids to the American Heritage Girls?

quote:

There are also nearly 700,000 transgender individuals in the US.

http://williamsinstitute.law.ucla.edu/research/census-lgbt-demographics-studies/how-many-people-are-lesbian-gay-bisexual-and-transgender/

Its not a huge segment, but neither is it so small that it can continue to be ignored.

No arguments there.

quote:

Something else that I thought about... what of those who legally change their sex?

Almost all U.S. states permit the name and sex to be changed on a birth certificate, either through amending the existing birth certificate or by issuing a new one. Only Idaho, Ohio, Tennessee, and Texas refuse to change the gender marker, though Texas will do so if a court order is presented. The legislatures and courts of many states, however, including Missouri, have not addressed this issue. Like other states, California will amend birth certificates only for California natives currently living in California. However, unlike other states, postoperative residents of California born outside California may obtain a court-ordered change of name and gender.

If only boys can join the boy scouts, and suzie changes, legally, to male on her birth certificate, does it matter that she doesnt have dangly bits?

There are a slew of issues that this condition brings up that will have to be addressed.

I have no idea what happens if you refuse to acknowledge someone legally changing their sex. Can a guy legally change his sex and then use the women's bathroom in airports? Or apply for aid/loans/assistance for a now woman-owned business? Can a business claim it meets diversity requirements if it hires five males who've done nothing more than legally changed their gender?

There's a huge grey area here and we're really just scratching the surface. I have no idea how it will all play out.

_____________________________

Consider the daffodil. And while you're doing that, I'll be over here, looking through your stuff.

(in reply to tazzygirl)

RE: Girl Scout troops disband over admittance of transg... - 12/23/2011 7:53:09 PM

Posts: 7522
Joined: 10/16/2007
From: Sydney Australia
Status: offline

quote:

I do not believe that a physician in the US will prescribe estrogens or any hormone course to a teen. Although it's not my area of expertise, I expect that starting a hormone regimen as part of a M-t-F transition is something one would have to wait until legal adulthood for - which likely makes the whole gender identity issue even rougher for transgendered teens.

Prescribing hormones to children and teens is standard in the medical management of intersex cases. There are situations where hormones are administered in utero in certain chromosomal conditions. There is a huge gap between what really happens in such cases, and the everyday assumptions surrounding these issues.

My understanding is that hormone prescription would also be routine in cases of transgender children. The aim would be to prevent the development of secondary sexual characteristics in puberty and teenage years. It would be grossly unethical to prescribe such a regimen without parental involvement and consent.

You might find this analysis of physical ambiguity in infants an eye-opener. I certainly did!

_____________________________

(in reply to InvisibleBlack)

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